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Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation

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  • Karl W. Evoy
    ... By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade? Ancel
    Message 1 of 25 , May 5, 2003
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      > points usable in both
      > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
      > James Wolfden
      By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
      Ancel
    • Russ Sheldon
      Very interesting...please keep us updated. :-) Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion ... From: Mike O Toole To:
      Message 2 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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        Very interesting...please keep us updated. :-)

        Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mike O'Toole" <mike.otoole@...>
        To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:59 AM
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] First Results from Mary Rose war arrow re-creation


        > Hi all,
        >
        > Just wanted to update you on my first couple of arrows Mary Rose war
        > arrows I am re-creating.
        >
        > I used poplar (species unknown instead of the black poplar found on the
        > MR) from the lumber store and cut it with the band saw into
        > 1/2"x1/2"x32" pieces. I then used a small hand plane and shoot block to
        > round the shafts until they were 1/2" in diameter, then burnished with a
        > piece of brass rod.
        >
        > I had them on the spine tester the other night at archery practice and
        > they came out at 149 and 162 lb spine. Which is not too far from the
        > upper end of speculation for the war bow poundage.
        >
        > Michael O'Byrne
        >
        > sorry for the mass posting to the archery mail lists but I can't find
        > the address of the people who asked for updates. :-(
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > "He who works with his hands is a laborer.
        > He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
        > He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist."
        >
        > St. Francis of Assissi
        >
        >
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      • Sun Lu-shan
        Hi Michael, Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary Rose shafts tapered from 1/2 to 3/8 , which would probably give them less
        Message 3 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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          Hi Michael,

          Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
          Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
          less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
          the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?

          Cheers,
          Sun Lu-shan


          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...>
          wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > Just wanted to update you on my first couple of arrows Mary Rose
          war
          > arrows I am re-creating.
          >
          > I used poplar (species unknown instead of the black poplar found on
          the
          > MR) from the lumber store and cut it with the band saw into
          > 1/2"x1/2"x32" pieces. I then used a small hand plane and shoot
          block to
          > round the shafts until they were 1/2" in diameter, then burnished
          with a
          > piece of brass rod.
          >
          > I had them on the spine tester the other night at archery practice
          and
          > they came out at 149 and 162 lb spine. Which is not too far from
          the
          > upper end of speculation for the war bow poundage.
          >
        • James Brummet
          Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft? ... Hi Michael, Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary Rose
          Message 4 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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            Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft?

            >>> Lu-shan@... 05/06/03 01:20PM >>>
            Hi Michael,

            Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
            Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
            less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
            the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?

            Cheers,
            Sun Lu-shan


            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Mike O'Toole <mike.otoole@s...>
            wrote:
            > Hi all,
            >
            > Just wanted to update you on my first couple of arrows Mary Rose
            war
            > arrows I am re-creating.
            >
            > I used poplar (species unknown instead of the black poplar found on
            the
            > MR) from the lumber store and cut it with the band saw into
            > 1/2"x1/2"x32" pieces. I then used a small hand plane and shoot
            block to
            > round the shafts until they were 1/2" in diameter, then burnished
            with a
            > piece of brass rod.
            >
            > I had them on the spine tester the other night at archery practice
            and
            > they came out at 149 and 162 lb spine. Which is not too far from
            the
            > upper end of speculation for the war bow poundage.
            >


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          • jameswolfden
            ... The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had a large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows and arrow shafts
            Message 5 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James Brummet" <brummejr@f...>
              wrote:
              > Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose shaft?
              >
              The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had a
              large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows and
              arrow shafts that have been preserved over time. A sword may be
              passed from generation to generation but an old longbow and arrows
              are just kindling or will be left to rot. So this becomes a godsend
              to most of us archer types that are trying to recreate period bows
              and arrows.


              Check out www.maryrose.org for more on the Mary Rose.

              James Wolfden
              Lions Gate
            • Kinjal of Moravia
              ... getting a period correct bow is not a problem from the right merchant, and need not be expensive either. My profered bow is not exectly period, based on a
              Message 6 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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                --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                getting a period correct bow is not a problem from the right
                merchant, and need not be expensive either. My profered bow is not
                exectly period, based on a 600BC Assyrian design. However,it is
                close to a Sythian style into which it evolved. 50# with a beautiful
                pull, and it looks so nice I get constant comments in my Scythian
                style quiver. I use Mongolian release because of sever arthritis and
                can fire 7 arrows in 30 seconds. Cost = $270

                Kinjal

                wrote:
                > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James Brummet"
                <brummejr@f...>
                > wrote:
                > > Okay I have to ask after all the emails. What is a Mary Rose
                shaft?
                > >
                > The Mary Rose was an late period English warship that sank. It had
                a
                > large assortment of armaments on board including english longbows
                and
                > arrow shafts that have been preserved over time. A sword may be
                > passed from generation to generation but an old longbow and arrows
                > are just kindling or will be left to rot. So this becomes a
                godsend
                > to most of us archer types that are trying to recreate period bows
                > and arrows.
                >
                >
                > Check out www.maryrose.org for more on the Mary Rose.
                >
                > James Wolfden
                > Lions Gate
              • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2 36% down the shaft? James Cunningham
                Message 7 of 25 , May 6, 2003
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                  Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                  36% down the shaft?

                  James Cunningham
                  > Hi Michael,
                  >
                  > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the Mary
                  > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give them
                  > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows and
                  > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Sun Lu-shan
                • Sun Lu-shan
                  You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more likely barreled or chested
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                    You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were
                    straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more likely
                    barreled or chested shafts. Your question prompted me to look around
                    some more, and unfortunately the official Mary Rose site makes no
                    mention of it, but others who have viewed the arrows called them
                    chested, and described the specific double taper starting about 1/3
                    down the shaft.

                    Probably they were chested, then, which would not reduce the spine
                    over a straight shaft. I wonder if this account I read contained a
                    mistake. Clearly though, most ofthe arrows were tapered in some
                    fashion.

                    http://www.labelle.org/ArGear_Arrow.html

                    Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                    arrows?

                    Lu-shan




                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                    <cunning@f...> wrote:
                    > Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with
                    the 1/2"
                    > 36% down the shaft?
                    >
                    > James Cunningham
                    > > Hi Michael,
                    > >
                    > > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the
                    Mary
                    > > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably give
                    them
                    > > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly bows
                    and
                    > > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                    > >
                    > > Cheers,
                    > > Sun Lu-shan
                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                    ... wrote: Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented arrows?
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                      wrote:

                      Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                      perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                      arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
                      replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange that
                      European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                      approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                      taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                      meaning here?

                      Kinjal

                      > You know, I also thought it was strange when I read that they were
                      > straight tapered from the pile, thinking that they were more
                      likely
                      > barreled or chested shafts. Your question prompted me to look
                      around
                      > some more, and unfortunately the official Mary Rose site makes no
                      > mention of it, but others who have viewed the arrows called them
                      > chested, and described the specific double taper starting about
                      1/3
                      > down the shaft.
                      >
                      > Probably they were chested, then, which would not reduce the spine
                      > over a straight shaft. I wonder if this account I read contained
                      a
                      > mistake. Clearly though, most ofthe arrows were tapered in some
                      > fashion.
                      >
                      > http://www.labelle.org/ArGear_Arrow.html
                      >
                      > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary
                      Rose
                      > arrows?
                      >
                      > Lu-shan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                      > <cunning@f...> wrote:
                      > > Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows
                      with
                      > the 1/2"
                      > > 36% down the shaft?
                      > >
                      > > James Cunningham
                      > > > Hi Michael,
                      > > >
                      > > > Are you going to try tapering some of the shafts? Most of the
                      > Mary
                      > > > Rose shafts tapered from 1/2" to 3/8", which would probably
                      give
                      > them
                      > > > less spine. Perhaps the straight shafts were for the burly
                      bows
                      > and
                      > > > the tapered were for the "normal" 100 pounders?
                      > > >
                      > > > Cheers,
                      > > > Sun Lu-shan
                    • jameswolfden
                      ... many ... that ... It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However, I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                        --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                        <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                        > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                        > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and
                        many
                        > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
                        that
                        > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                        > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                        > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                        > meaning here?
                        >
                        > Kinjal
                        >

                        It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts. However,
                        I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                        period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
                        the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

                        For English Archers during the 100 Year War, arrows would be mass
                        manufactured. It is interesting to note that points usable in both
                        war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned whereas points
                        used only in war (like a bodkin) were only socketed. Speculation:
                        Hunting arrows can be retrieved with prey. War arrows need only to be
                        one time delivery. I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                        were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
                        arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

                        James Wolfden
                      • Carolus Eulenhorst
                        I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows used in war are
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                          I have not seen reference to the type of arrow you are referring to in
                          use in Europe during our primary time of interest. Generally, arrows
                          used in war are one piece as the removable portion was too fragile to
                          withstand the rigors of hitting any form of armor.

                          Chested arrows taper towards both the tip and the nock, keeping their
                          spine and strength while losing weight.

                          In service to the dream
                          Carolus von Eulenhorst
                          eulenhorst@...

                          On Wed, 07 May 2003 22:21:30 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                          <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                          > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > Your comments have prompted a question that I queried before, but
                          > perhaps on another site. Does anyone have information on segmented
                          >
                          > arrows? Amerinds used them, often carrying only 4-5 shafts and many
                          >
                          > replacable end shafts with various heads. It would seem strange
                          > that
                          > European or Asian influence did not discover this practical
                          > approach, though I did find one reference in which an arrow was
                          > taken from a prey and reused. Would 'chested' arrows have some
                          > meaning here?
                          >
                          > Kinjal

                          ________________________________________________________________
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                        • Carl West
                          ... Footed shafts are generally (I m unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it s all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                            jameswolfden wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                            > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                            > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                            > > arrows?
                            >...
                            > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.

                            Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different from 'footed' I think.

                            > ...However,
                            > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                            > period covered by the SCA.

                            Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.


                            > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                            > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when the
                            > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.

                            Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were shooting them loose-headed.

                            Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed heads.

                            - Fritz
                            --
                            Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

                            I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
                            of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.
                            - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
                            -
                          • Guy Taylor
                            ... However, ... Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up the
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                              > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                              However,
                              > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in the
                              > period covered by the SCA. I understand that it was popular during
                              > the Victorian era on a mainly aesthetic basis.

                              Footed arrows have better FOC (front of center) due to the more dense
                              wood that is used in the footing than that which typically makes up
                              the shaft. This stronger and denser wood also makes the arrow
                              stronger where it is weakest, right behind the tip.
                              These days some people find a footed arrow advantagous because their
                              draw is too long for the length of the mass produced shaft; footing
                              will add a few inches to the length.

                              Guy
                            • Carolus Eulenhorst
                              A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make for a tight fit. A
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                                A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a thin
                                layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will make
                                for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                                easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause the
                                victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the action
                                with an otherwise non-fatal wound.

                                In service to the dream
                                Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                eulenhorst@...

                                On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@...> writes:
                                > jameswolfden wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                                > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                                > <Lu-shan@f...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                                > > > arrows?
                                > >...
                                > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                                >
                                > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to this) a
                                > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was asking
                                > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather different
                                > from 'footed' I think.
                                >
                                > > ...However,
                                > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                                > the
                                > > period covered by the SCA.
                                >
                                > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                                > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                                >
                                >
                                > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                                > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that when
                                > the
                                > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                                >
                                > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                                > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                                > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                                > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many of
                                > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head in
                                > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they were
                                > shooting them loose-headed.
                                >
                                > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings was
                                > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                                > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran out
                                > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more. They
                                > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This story
                                > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly affixed
                                > heads.
                                >
                                > - Fritz
                                > --
                                > Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

                                ________________________________________________________________
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                              • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                                Greetings, Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today as
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                                  Greetings,
                                  Yes, bodkin points were afixed to the shaft with heated resin
                                  such as pine pitch. This is very similar in feel to what is sold today
                                  as ferrule-tite. There is some residual residue that's been found on the
                                  heads of period arrows.
                                  I use and love footed shafts. I've even made a few of them. They
                                  ARE good for putting more weight towards the front of the arrow and they
                                  make hunting arrows hit and penetrate even better. I hesitate to use
                                  them in SCA shooting because of the mass of arrows we shoot, it's
                                  heartbreaking enough to see my plain shafts get shattered.
                                  I am not personally aware of any "take down" arrows that existed
                                  in medieval Europe and I couldn't find anything about such a thing after
                                  a quick search through my books. I'd be interested to see anything about
                                  it if anyone finds such a thing. I know that it certainly did exist in
                                  Native American cultures.
                                  -Geoffrei


                                  http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                                • Kinjal of Moravia
                                  ... Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this, at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much for all the
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 7, 2003
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                                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                    Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                    at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                    for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                    that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                    Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                    away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                    nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                    Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?




                                    <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                                    > A well made socket with a matched shaft could easily hod with a
                                    thin
                                    > layer of beeswax used as an adhesive. The lack of air space will
                                    make
                                    > for a tight fit. A shaft which does not firmly embed itseldf could
                                    > easily be shot back. However, a point left in a wound would cause
                                    the
                                    > victim great pain and could conceivably take someone out of the
                                    action
                                    > with an otherwise non-fatal wound.
                                    >
                                    > In service to the dream
                                    > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                    > eulenhorst@j...
                                    >
                                    > On Thu, 08 May 2003 00:41:03 -0400 Carl West <eisen@a...> writes:
                                    > > jameswolfden wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                    > > > <gusarimagic@r...> wrote:
                                    > > > > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan"
                                    > > <Lu-shan@f...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ...Does anyone have information on segmented
                                    > > > > arrows?
                                    > > >...
                                    > > > It was used in England and is referred to as footed shafts.
                                    > >
                                    > > Footed shafts are generally (I'm unaware of an exception to
                                    this) a
                                    > > glued arrangement. Functionally it's all one piece. Sun was
                                    asking
                                    > > about arrows with swappable heads or fore-shafts. Rather
                                    different
                                    > > from 'footed' I think.
                                    > >
                                    > > > ...However,
                                    > > > I do not believe that we have any evidence that it was done in
                                    > > the
                                    > > > period covered by the SCA.
                                    > >
                                    > > Roger Ascham (1515-1568) writes of 'pieced arrows' which is
                                    > > interpreted by many as meaning what we call 'footed' today.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > ...I have heard much speculation that bodkin points
                                    > > > were held in place with little more than bee's wax so that
                                    when
                                    > > the
                                    > > > arrow was withdrawn the bodkin would stay behind.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hmmm... not being firmly fixed to the shaft, the head would lose
                                    > > some of the sharpness of impact it might otherwise get from the
                                    > > weight of the shaft. With a shaft of ash or oak, that's not
                                    > > inconsiderable. At the same time it _would_ cut down on how many
                                    of
                                    > > them got shot back at you. I don't believe that leaving the head
                                    in
                                    > > a wound would have been the major consideration if indeed they
                                    were
                                    > > shooting them loose-headed.
                                    > >
                                    > > Apparently one of the things that slowed the battle at Hastings
                                    was
                                    > > that Harold had few archers with him and therefor few arrows got
                                    > > shot back down the hill. After a while. William's archers ran
                                    out
                                    > > and had to go all the way back to the baggage train for more.
                                    They
                                    > > had been expecting to glean return shots to stay armed. This
                                    story
                                    > > suggests to me that at least in 1066 war arrows had solidly
                                    affixed
                                    > > heads.
                                    > >
                                    > > - Fritz
                                    > > --
                                    > > Carl West eisen@a... http://eisen.home.attbi.com
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________________________________________
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                                  • Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth
                                    ... The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8 inch at the nock end. Robin Kyrke
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                      >Question? are they tappered from end to end or chested arrows with the 1/2"
                                      >36% down the shaft?
                                      >
                                      >James Cunningham


                                      The shafts are tapered from end to end. 1/2 inch at the arrowhead to 3/8
                                      inch at the nock end.

                                      Robin Kyrke
                                    • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                      Actually, the governing documents state Pre- 17th Century Western Culture . Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by convention because of their
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                        Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                                        Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                                        convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                                        enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                                        compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                                        couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                                        predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                                        Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                                        settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                                        London for a season so they would be possible as well.

                                        In service to the dream
                                        Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                        eulenhorst@...

                                        On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                        <gusarimagic@...> writes:
                                        > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                        > Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                        >
                                        > at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                        >
                                        > for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                        > that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                        > Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                        >
                                        > away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                        > nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                        >
                                        > Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?

                                        ________________________________________________________________
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                                      • jameswolfden
                                        ... No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of course, tanged
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                          --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > > points usable in both
                                          > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                                          > > James Wolfden
                                          > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                                          > Ancel


                                          No, these points were still socketed but there was hole in the socket
                                          where the point could be pinned to the wooden shaft. There were, of
                                          course, tanged points too. Does anyone out there have a chronology of
                                          arrowheads? Sockets seem to be late middle ages with tangs earlier.
                                          When does the first bodkin appear? 1200?

                                          For some examples of different types of heads, you could visit the
                                          Hector Cole website at:

                                          http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/

                                          James Wolfden
                                        • Kinjal of Moravia
                                          ... and don t pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery- scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                            --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "jameswolfden" <jim.welch@c...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Karl W. Evoy" <kweancel@r...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > points usable in both
                                            > > > war and hunting (like a type 16) are usually pinned
                                            > > > James Wolfden
                                            > > By pinned, do you mean tanged, like a knife or sword blade?
                                            > > Ancel
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/
                                            >
                                            > James Wolfden

                                            and don't pass uphttp://www.traditional-archery-
                                            scandinavia.com/englisch/englisch.html

                                            for available authentic heads in both brass and iron, some with
                                            tangs, others not. I have not seen any evidence that any are
                                            pinned, but have only purchased a couple for show.

                                            Kinjal
                                          • Godwin fitzGilbert
                                            ... wrote: -snip- ... I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 8, 2003
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                                              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "Sun Lu-shan" <Lu-shan@f...>
                                              wrote:
                                              -snip-
                                              >
                                              > Does anyone have access to good photos or measurements of Mary Rose
                                              > arrows?
                                              >
                                              > Lu-shan
                                              >
                                              I hope to have some very nice photos here in about a week or so. My
                                              new bride and I will be honeymooning in England, and at least a day in
                                              Portsmouth is on the agenda.

                                              Godwin
                                            • James McArthur
                                              You re probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580 s settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607. William MacArthur
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 10, 2003
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                                                You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period (1607.

                                                William MacArthur

                                                --- Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...> wrote:
                                                >Actually, the governing documents state "Pre- 17th Century Western
                                                >Culture". Japanese, Middle Eastern, and the like are allowed by
                                                >convention because of their influence on the west. There even was an
                                                >enclave of Japanese including Samurai and a princess living in their own
                                                >compound at the Vatican for a couple of years in period. We have had a
                                                >couple of Aztec personas (one at the First Tournament). The Toltec
                                                >predated contact and the contact with the Arapahoe post dated 17th
                                                >Century. Otherwise nothing would prevent them at all. The English
                                                >settlers at Jamestown bought a representative of the Virginia tribes to
                                                >London for a season so they would be possible as well.
                                                >
                                                >In service to the dream
                                                >Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                                >eulenhorst@...
                                                >
                                                >On Thu, 08 May 2003 06:01:05 -0000 "Kinjal of Moravia"
                                                ><gusarimagic@...> writes:
                                                >> --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                                                >> Of course the silk shirts worn as primary armor would prevent this,
                                                >>
                                                >> at least for smart Mongols and Scots who imported them. Thanks much
                                                >>
                                                >> for all the contributions on this subject, though it seems strange
                                                >> that an Amerind device would not have been replicated in Europe.
                                                >> Period of course, 12th and 13th centuries -- just a little distance
                                                >>
                                                >> away. However, I believe they were used for fishing and hunting,
                                                >> nor for wars. By the way, who decided that SCA meant "Europe"? If
                                                >>
                                                >> Japanese is let in, why not Toltec or Arapahoe?
                                                >
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                                              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                                                You re right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to. Blocked on Roanoke settlement. In service to the dream Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                                Message 23 of 25 , May 11, 2003
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                                                  You're right, of course. Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.
                                                  Blocked on Roanoke settlement.

                                                  In service to the dream
                                                  Carolus von Eulenhorst
                                                  eulenhorst@...

                                                  On Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:58 -0700 (PDT) James McArthur
                                                  <capnwilliam@...> writes:
                                                  > You're probably thinking of Manteo and Wanchese, from the 1580's
                                                  > settlement at Roanoke, Carolus. Jamestown was just out of SCA period
                                                  > (1607.
                                                  >
                                                  > William MacArthur

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