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non-traditional revisited

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  • Ken Muller <gusarimagic@rinternet.com>
    As a new member here, I was scanning early articles, and found several on controversy over traditiona vs. non-traditional annomosity. One reason I was drawn
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2003
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      As a new member here, I was scanning early articles, and found
      several on controversy over traditiona vs. non-traditional
      annomosity. One reason I was drawn back to archery afer a long
      abscence was observing a visiting European archer at a local park
      range. Others were shooting 'compound' bows at 40-60 yards. He
      placed a sheet of 81/2 X 11' paper on a hay bale. He strung his 60#
      Hungarian bow (true traditional compound of bone, wood, sinew and
      isenglas) and held 4 arrows in bow hand while another was tension
      nocked for Mongolian Release. He the RAN ZIGZAG from 70 to 30
      yards, firing on the way, and placed five shots on target!

      Let the modern guys try that. In conversation, he mentioned a
      relative who had set the world record for a traditional bow at 444
      yards. Also, in competition, they typically shoot at about 80 yards
      at small, fist sized baskets, and are guided in by a spotter, just
      like modern artillery

      Kinjal
    • hanhebin <hamberg@fiber.net>
      ... I frequently hear archers in the SCA say that they are they have problems with the mundane archery community but personally I have experienced it. I
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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        > Let the modern guys try that.

        I frequently hear archers in the SCA say that they are they have
        problems with the mundane archery community but personally I have
        experienced it. I changed my major focus from SCA archery to
        shooting Olympic recurve events because of the Olympic recurve
        community. When I couldn't find a single marshal that would run an
        IKAC or Royal Round shoots, the mundane community was inviting me to
        shoot with them and DIDN'T CARE what kind of bow I shoot.

        On the other hand I ALWAYS hear archers in the SCA rip on the mundane
        archery community and it doesn't matter where I go but the lack of
        respect for mundane archers is absolutely amazing. Just because a
        mundane archery shoots an Olympic recurve or a compound bow doesn't
        mean I can't shoot a longbow or crossbow. Not being disrespectful
        here but when you consider my arrows cost between $30 and $60 an
        arrow, how many SCA archers do you think I would be willing to trust
        my equipment to?

        I'll be the first to point out that my traditional shooting skills
        are not as good as they should be because my major focus is Olympic
        recurve. Still I can shoot well and if you gave me a couple of weeks
        to practice with my traditional equipment, I would probably post 200+
        IKACs in all 4 weapon divisions. Last year at the World Archery
        Festival in Las Vegas the individual that won the unlimited flight
        division with a compound finished 8th shooting an Olympic recurve in
        the championship division. He would of finished 4th in the compound
        championship division but wasn't allowed to compete in the two
        championship divisions. Give him a traditional bow and ask him to
        shoot a Royal Round and I bet he would shoot Bowmaster or better.

        Don't make the assumption because it's a non-traditional shooter that
        they can't shoot traditional equipment.

        Michael
      • Nest verch Tangwistel
        ... You may want to look into those costs. These days a dozen X10s only costs $340. After adding in the points, pin nocks and fletchings, you really should
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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          > mean I can't shoot a longbow or crossbow. Not being disrespectful
          > here but when you consider my arrows cost between $30 and $60 an
          > arrow, how many SCA archers do you think I would be willing to trust
          > my equipment to?


          You may want to look into those costs. These days a dozen X10s only costs
          $340. After adding in the points, pin nocks and fletchings, you really
          should only be paying around $40-45 per arrow. If you are paying another
          $20 per arrow to have them assembled you should look for another fletcher.

          The argument about mundane vs traditional has been beaten to death
          repeatedly. Most people agree that there are nice and not so nice people
          in both categories. There are plenty of mundane archers that think we are
          nuts, and there are plenty of SCA archers that think they are. Michael,
          you have been very lucky in the mundane world, and not so lucky in the SCA
          world. Don't assume everyone has had the same experiences.

          Nest

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        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
          Well then! Michael, Traditional archery is the game we play here on this list. We are determined to be on the side of the merits of traditional archery against
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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            Well then! Michael,
            Traditional archery is the game we play here on this list. We are
            determined to be on the side of the merits of traditional archery
            against the more modern hi-tech machinery that you often allude to. I am
            no longer an active member of the SCA due to severe mundane obligations
            and constraints, but I like to keep in touch with my fellow traditional
            archers on this list. That is why I am not a member of a list of
            compound shooters or high-tech gadgety recurve shooters (not that there
            is anything wrong with them :P), but it is a VERY different game.
            I'm not trying to knock you off of your very high horse here, but
            before you expouse the ultimate superiority of the "olympic-style"
            shooters and their ability with even our simple "stick and string"
            archery, I suggest that you come and shoot with some of the traditioal
            shooters that I am accustomed o shooting with, you may be very
            surprised.
            There IS a prejudice against traditional tackle, maybe you
            haven't seen it in your small neck of the woods but it does exist, to
            the point that some mundane ranges here in NY will not allow wooden
            arrows and tappered points to be used on their ranges.
            Traditional longbow archers here have commonly scored in the 280's
            on the 300 indoor shoot, acheiving a higher score than most of the
            hi-tech stabilized, trigger release, neon pin and peep sight compound
            shooters. I am certain that there are tales like that everywhere, but I
            can only address the area that I know about.
            I well understand and have shot the new hi-tech equipment and
            personally choose not to. There is no joy or art in it for me. That's
            why I like this list so much. It s all about the type of archery that I
            enjoy. From what you've written in the past, it seems that you like it
            also...and you like the other type too. That's fine. But don't try to
            sell the hi-tech to us. It's just not our game. It's kind of like
            bringing a synthesiser to an acoustic folk music gathering.
            Respectfully,
            Geoffrei


            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
          • Godwin fitzGilbert <Godwin@rmci.net>
            ... mundane ... weeks ... 200+ ... that ... That really is too bad. Here in our area, where a great many of the SCA archers are either members of a local
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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              --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, "hanhebin <hamberg@f...>"
              <hamberg@f...> wrote:
              > > Let the modern guys try that.
              >
              > I frequently hear archers in the SCA say that they are they have
              > problems with the mundane archery community but personally I have
              > experienced it. I changed my major focus from SCA archery to
              > shooting Olympic recurve events because of the Olympic recurve
              > community. When I couldn't find a single marshal that would run an
              > IKAC or Royal Round shoots, the mundane community was inviting me to
              > shoot with them and DIDN'T CARE what kind of bow I shoot.
              >
              > On the other hand I ALWAYS hear archers in the SCA rip on the
              mundane
              > archery community and it doesn't matter where I go but the lack of
              > respect for mundane archers is absolutely amazing. Just because a
              > mundane archery shoots an Olympic recurve or a compound bow doesn't
              > mean I can't shoot a longbow or crossbow. Not being disrespectful
              > here but when you consider my arrows cost between $30 and $60 an
              > arrow, how many SCA archers do you think I would be willing to trust
              > my equipment to?
              >
              > I'll be the first to point out that my traditional shooting skills
              > are not as good as they should be because my major focus is Olympic
              > recurve. Still I can shoot well and if you gave me a couple of
              weeks
              > to practice with my traditional equipment, I would probably post
              200+
              > IKACs in all 4 weapon divisions. Last year at the World Archery
              > Festival in Las Vegas the individual that won the unlimited flight
              > division with a compound finished 8th shooting an Olympic recurve in
              > the championship division. He would of finished 4th in the compound
              > championship division but wasn't allowed to compete in the two
              > championship divisions. Give him a traditional bow and ask him to
              > shoot a Royal Round and I bet he would shoot Bowmaster or better.
              >
              > Don't make the assumption because it's a non-traditional shooter
              that
              > they can't shoot traditional equipment.
              >
              > Michael

              That really is too bad. Here in our area, where a great many of the
              SCA archers are either members of a local archery club, the Nampa Bow
              Chiefs, or come to shoot on a regular basis, we are greeted warmly and
              there is great commradarie on the shooting line bewteen the compounds
              and the traditionalists. As a matter of fact, at the NBC's barbeque
              last Saturday, the Board asked our group to post a display about what
              we do: our traditional historic archery, and some armor and A&S items.
              It was great, and we had a lot of people come and take a look, ask
              questions, and a few took informational cards away with them.

              And there is more that our groups will do together, at an upcoming
              benefit shoot the 3rd and 4th of May. They have asked for our
              help on a couple of items. That's cool!!

              There is no need to maintain a separatist attitude between the styles,
              because we all enjoy shooting bows. About a month ago one of the guys
              there let two of us shoot his 1700 dollar compound bow. That was a
              treat, and an eye opener. We joke around with them shooting bows with
              "training wheels" and they tell us they have drills and such to mount
              stabilizers and sights, and how good that would look on our longbows,
              it's all in great fun. We also bunch up in groups and just talk
              shooting. The other night, there was about 4-5 traditional shooters
              and about the same amount compound shooters. During the evening at one
              point, I looked around....nobody was shooting...we were all talking in
              groups of 2-3...all over the range, and that continued for about 45
              minutes. It was pretty cool.

              The only time styles and equipment difference comes into play, is
              during competition, which is true for both mundane and SCA shoots.

              Traditional equipment isn't cheap either. There are only 2 or 3 people
              that I have let shoot my longbow, and that's because I know their draw
              length, and I have seen them shoot. The only thing I'm shooting with
              right now, that I have not made myself, is my string, and that will
              change soon also. (as soon as this string wears out :) ) It's hard to
              put a price tag on equipment that you shoot, that you have made
              yourself, but I value it pretty highly. (until I break that pretty
              arrow....then I just sniff the cedar, and go make another ;)

              Godwin
            • hanhebin <hamberg@fiber.net>
              ... Your comments are not inline with US FITA longbow records. When you translate an NFAA 280 to FITA you got a minimum of 40 9s and 20 or fewer 7s which is a
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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                > Traditional archery is the game we play here on this list. We are
                > determined to be on the side of the merits of traditional archery
                > against the more modern hi-tech machinery that you often allude to.

                > I'm not trying to knock you off of your very high horse here, but
                > before you expouse the ultimate superiority of the "olympic-style"
                > shooters and their ability with even our simple "stick and string"
                > archery, I suggest that you come and shoot with some of the
                > traditioal shooters that I am accustomed o shooting with, you may
                > be very surprised.

                > Traditional longbow archers here have commonly scored in the 280's
                > on the 300 indoor shoot, acheiving a higher score than most of the
                > hi-tech stabilized, trigger release, neon pin and peep sight
                > compound shooters. I am certain that there are tales like that
                > everywhere, but I can only address the area that I know about.

                Your comments are not inline with US FITA longbow records. When you
                translate an NFAA 280 to FITA you got a minimum of 40 9s and 20 or
                fewer 7s which is a 500 FITA (250 for a half FITA) where US FITA
                traditional longbow record is 467 and the modern longbow FITA record
                is 459. The US FITA Olympic recurve record is 596 and the compound
                record is 598 and in the compound division they only count the X ring
                as a 10. Indoor Nationals are coming up in March and I encourage you
                to participate, shatter these records and post a single score that
                would rank in the top 50% of Olympic recurve or compound shooters.

                Michael
              • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                Greetings, A very common tournament that is sponsored by mundane indoor ranges during the winter months here on the East Coast is sometimes referred to as the
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 5, 2003
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                  Greetings,
                  A very common tournament that is sponsored by mundane indoor
                  ranges during the winter months here on the East Coast is sometimes
                  referred to as the "300". It is shot on a solid blue,white spot
                  target(approx. 40cm) at 20 yards. There are 20 ends of three shots. The
                  scoring is done from the center to the outer10-9-8-7-6 corresponding to
                  the rings. Indication is made on the score sheet of "x's" for breaking a
                  tie score. Highest possible score is 300, hence the name. I have
                  competed in many of these tournaments and have trophied in them several
                  times, usually with a score in the 260's. There are divisions for
                  compound, target and traditional.
                  Not all tournaments make it into FITA, NAA, NFAA, IBO, NYSBH, or
                  any of the other reporting institutions. IKAC is not reported to those
                  governing bodies but the tournaments do exist. There are 'Muzzy" shoots,
                  there are 3D tournaments, knock-a-block and many other mundane
                  tournaments that are not reported to those organizations also. A friend
                  of mine won the title at the Mid-West broadhead tournament several years
                  ago. I like to shoot them all. I would be bored stiff if I could only
                  shoot paper at fixed ranges. That's only a part of my archery
                  experience. I tend to really like the 3D shoots through obstacles in a
                  woods setting best, but I play at York and FITA rounds also as well as
                  our SCA game. I like to think of myself as a more well rounded archer
                  (no weight jokes please).
                  Some of the members of the Olympic team shoot at Pro-Line Archery
                  in Ozone Park in Queens, NY. I am quite familiar with them and their
                  tackle, and I occassionally shoot with a group of target archers here on
                  Long Island that are called "Nassau Bowmen". They usually shoot FITA
                  rounds. They are both very nice groups, but I don't enjoy sharing the
                  range with them because they take so darn long with each shot that I
                  could comfortably get three rounds in for each of their one with very
                  similar scores. We get along just fine.
                  I am underwhelmed by the ability of the high-tech archers that I
                  have seen shoot. They often act resentful that I and my friends hit so
                  well with our "primitive equipment". Occassionally, I've gotten a few
                  converts, but they don't do all that well, and often cannot even draw
                  our bows. They will say that they don't really pay attention to the
                  sights on their bows or the clickers, or they don't need the stabilizer,
                  but once they try one of our bows and hit the floor more than they hit
                  the butt, they realise that they have depended on their gadgets more
                  than they thought. It's the only time I've ever really seen "target
                  panic".
                  -Geoffrei


                  http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                • Robert P. Giddings
                  ... 20 ends x 3 shots = 60 shots 10 points x 60 shots = 600 possible score or am I missing something here? Symon Fisc
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 6, 2003
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                    >There are 20 ends of three shots. The
                    > scoring is done from the center to the outer10-9-8-7-6 corresponding to
                    > the rings. Indication is made on the score sheet of "x's" for breaking a
                    > tie score. Highest possible score is 300, hence the name.

                    20 ends x 3 shots = 60 shots
                    10 points x 60 shots = 600 possible score

                    or am I missing something here?

                    Symon Fisc
                  • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                    Greetings, Yup, that was a typo, should have been 10 ends at 20 yds. -Geoffrei http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 6, 2003
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                      Greetings,
                      Yup, that was a typo, should have been 10 ends at 20 yds.
                      -Geoffrei


                      http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                    • hanhebin <hamberg@fiber.net>
                      ... If you are underwhelmed then let s say we shoot a few 300 rounds and make the game interesting. Say $10 a point as my lady would love another trip to New
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 6, 2003
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                        > I am underwhelmed by the ability of the high-tech archers that I
                        > have seen shoot. They often act resentful that I and my friends hit
                        > so well with our "primitive equipment". Occassionally, I've gotten
                        > a few converts, but they don't do all that well, and often cannot
                        > even draw our bows. They will say that they don't really pay
                        > attention to the sights on their bows or the clickers, or they
                        > don't need the stabilizer, but once they try one of our bows and
                        > hit the floor more than they hit the butt, they realise that they
                        > have depended on their gadgets more than they thought. It's the
                        > only time I've ever really seen "target panic".

                        If you are underwhelmed then let's say we shoot a few 300 rounds and
                        make the game interesting. Say $10 a point as my lady would love
                        another trip to New York. Let me warn you however that with my
                        Olympic recurve you aren't going to beat me with a score in the 260s.

                        I admit that I am not as good with traditional equipment as I should
                        be. A couple of weeks ago when it was warm enough to shoot my
                        longbow I tried shooting a period Royal Round and FINALLY managed to
                        shoot a "100" (usually I'm in the 80s). Not bad on SCA standards but
                        definitely not great.

                        Michael
                      • laurnamacnear@aol.com
                        ... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm seems to me that you just made his point...
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 6, 2003
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                          In a message dated 2/6/2003 10:18:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, hamberg@... writes:

                          > If you are underwhelmed then let's say we shoot a few 300 rounds and make the game interesting. Say $10 a point as my lady would love another trip to New York. Let me warn you however that with my Olympic recurve you aren't going to beat me with a score in the 260s.

                          > I admit that I am not as good with traditional equipment as I should be. A couple of weeks ago when it was warm enough to shoot my longbow I tried shooting a period Royal Round and FINALLY managed to shoot a "100" (usually I'm in the 80s). Not bad on SCA standards but definitely not great.


                          Hmmmmmmmmmmmm seems to me that you just made his point...
                        • jrosswebb1@webtv.net
                          hamberg@fiber.net writes: If you are underwhelmed then let s say we shoot a few 300 rounds and make the game interesting. Say $10 a point .... Let me warn you
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 6, 2003
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                            hamberg@... writes:
                            If you are underwhelmed then let's say we shoot a few 300 rounds and
                            make the game interesting. Say $10 a point .... Let me warn you however
                            that with my Olympic recurve you aren't going to beat me with a score in
                            the 260s.
                            I admit that I am not as good with traditional equipment as I should be.
                            A couple of weeks ago when it was warm enough to shoot my longbow I
                            tried shooting a period Royal Round and FINALLY managed to shoot a "100"
                            (usually I'm in the 80s). Not bad on SCA standards but definitely not
                            great.

                            laurnamacnear wrote:
                            Hmmmmmmmmmmmm seems to me that you just made his point...

                            To laurnamacnear,
                            Yup! I thought so too.

                            WOW! This list has been busy today! I just came home to a mountain of
                            emails.

                            Michael,
                            You originally were exhaulting the superiority of Olympic style
                            archers and stated that many of them also were proficient with
                            traditional equipment. I stated that I had not seen any of those archers
                            do anything noteworthy with traditional equipment, and those that I knew
                            that had tried to shoot with some of our equipment, did very poorly. I
                            contend that it is the equipment, the sights, stabilizer, $60.00 a piece
                            perfectly matched arrows, that gives these archers their high scores
                            because without them their abilities are underwhelming. In other words,
                            if you throw enough money at your goal, you can succeed. Now I'm not
                            saying that there isn't a great deal of skill involved in shooting that
                            equipment, but I think that after a time the gadgets become crutches
                            that change the character of what I know to be archery.
                            You then challenged me with my longbow against your Olympic
                            recurve. What's the point of that? I never claimed to easily defeat
                            those machines. I simply stated that I was surprised at how close I and
                            my friends came to their scores with our simple sticks, often matching
                            them on ends and on the two closer FITA round targets even scoring much
                            higher.
                            Your achievements with your traditional bow is admirable. An
                            average in the 80's on a royal round is certainly something to be proud
                            of. I wasn't bragging when I said that I normally shot in the 260's on
                            the 300 round, because although I have trophied in the competition, it
                            wasn't first place. First place always goes to a fellow that shoots it
                            in the 280's (non Scadian). There are many archers that shoot the
                            longbow far better than me. But I am good. Should you ever want to prove
                            yourself with a longbow sometime, fine. But let's keep it friendly. You
                            don't have to throw your money here....I don't want to take it from you.
                            -Geoffrei



                            http://community.webtv.net/jrosswebb1/EASTWINDStribal
                          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                            Where and When? James Cunningham not afraid to be in the lower 50% Indoor Nationals are coming up in March and I encourage you
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 7, 2003
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                              Where and When?

                              James Cunningham
                              not afraid to be in the lower 50%

                              Indoor Nationals are coming up in March and I encourage you
                              > to participate, shatter these records and post a single score that
                              > would rank in the top 50% of Olympic recurve or compound shooters.
                              >
                              > Michael
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Nest verch Tangwistel
                              Since the person who brought this up isn t going to answer you, I will. http://www.usarchery.org/naapub/fp/front.htm This site will give you all the info you
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 7, 2003
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                                Since the person who brought this up isn't going to answer you, I will.
                                http://www.usarchery.org/naapub/fp/front.htm
                                This site will give you all the info you need for this mundane tournament.
                                However, it can be run quite differently in our divisions from one section
                                to another. The NAA is not an organization which specializes in
                                traditional shooting. As a matter of fact they only included the category
                                6 years ago. After having shot with them for 3 years I can tell you they
                                still don't take tradiationalists very seriously. The organization is made
                                to promote olympic recurve and compound. I really don't recommend it for
                                SCA archers. However, having said that if you are in New England the
                                Attleboro, MA regional competition is very friendly to us, and can be a
                                lot of fun. I don't have experience with the other regions. If you look at
                                the national results though, you see there are very few traditional
                                shooters in most of the other regions. If you want anymore info contact me
                                privately so we don't use bandwidth on the list.

                                Nest
                                --- "James W. Pratt, Jr." <cunning@...> wrote:
                                > Where and When?
                                >
                                > James Cunningham
                                > not afraid to be in the lower 50%
                                >
                                > Indoor Nationals are coming up in March and I encourage you
                                > > to participate, shatter these records and post a single score that
                                > > would rank in the top 50% of Olympic recurve or compound shooters.
                                > >
                                > > Michael
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >

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