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"period" vs. "non-period"

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  • Matt Hemmer <captmac382@hotmail.com>
    Hi all. I don t normally get involved with these discussions but thought I might add to the fire. Archery is not the only crossover sport (fencing must needs
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 31, 2002
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      Hi all. I don't normally get involved with these discussions but
      thought I might add to the fire.

      Archery is not the only "crossover" sport (fencing must needs be
      added as well, albeit in a slightly different form). We do seem to
      get a fair proportion of people that are "crossovers" from and to
      mundane shooting. Mundanely there's a whiole other world out there
      called traditional (recurves, no sights, releases, counterwieghts,
      ect.) shooting and another for "primative" (almost entirely stick
      bows, all wood or with "primative" backing, sinew ie.)shooters. A
      geart many people shoot both. Why? Because we enjoy shooting....
      anywhere any time.

      A modern glass lam bow give more advantages (namely forgiveness
      for less than perfect form) to New archers and less experienced
      archers. This comes in the form of the centershot which reduces the
      amout of "paradox" an arrow has to go through. An experienced archer
      who has worked on form and technique doesn't need these advantages. A
      good archer can shoot virtually anything and still hit the target.
      Where as a new archer could simply get frustrated and decide this
      isn't his/her bag, using "period" equipment.

      As for "period" equipment, there is a huge amount of evidence
      suggesting that the English war bow was simply that, a WAR bow.
      Having shot bows in wieght range of the "Mary Rose" bows, I can say
      that they are uncomfortable to shoot. Many cultures to include the
      English used other bows for hunting and sport shooting of a lighter
      wieght. The bows used by the military are in fact more the exception
      than the rule for individual bows. Keep in mind that these bows were
      made by a professional bowyer in mass. That means the quickest,
      easiest way to make alot of bows in a hurry. There are bows that date
      from pre-history that are better designed and the replicas shoot MUCH
      smoother, and last longer, than the ELB. In fact some of the turkish
      flight bows, still in use, are 400 years old. They can cast arrows
      close to 1/2 mile down range! I simply can't believe that these
      designs were lost to the bowyers of the time with the fall of Rome.

      Yew was not the only wood that turned into bows. Most of the
      Baltic states used Ash or Birch. But yew is the most forgiving when
      it comes to tillering time. Again we see fastest, easiest. The ELB
      design doesn't really lend itself to many other woods to make a high
      quality bow. The "D" shape (cross section, not tillering profile)
      puts an inordinate amount of strees on the belly of the bow in a very
      small amount of wood, leading to excessive set/string follow. Yew
      handles that stress better than most including oak. I propose that if
      not for the need of a huge amount of bows, very quickly, we never
      have seen the ELB classic "D" shape to begin with. They made ALOT of
      them there fore alot of them were preserved. Not so with the flatter,
      more rectangular bows in greater use in hunting and "sport" shooting.

      As for the craftsman ship of "period" bows... Bows have been around
      for something like 10,000 years. Bowyers have been around for 10,000
      years. You don't need a factory with presses, planes, shapers, ect.
      to make a bow. A few simple hand tools do the trick to make some of
      the smoothest, lasting, beautiful bows you have ever seen.Some of the
      primative archers knap their own tools from stone then proceed to
      build very high quality bows with those tools. Using modern tools and
      methods a good bowyer can produce a pretty good shooting bow in an
      amazingly small amount of time (like 20 min. or so). Imagine that
      same bowyer with time to spare building a bow. Breathing life into
      the wood. Giving it anima. Helping it to learn to sing. So take some
      of the "replica" bows you see out there with the same grain of salt
      you would take some of the "replica" armor out there. As "wall
      hangers" or ornaments. But don't shoot one and expect the same
      preformance as you would get from a bow that a bowyer created out of
      passion for the craft.

      The whole point is, shoot what you got, if that's what you want. As
      you get better and if your tendencies lead you that way, do a little
      research, get (or make) a period bow and learn! VERY little is more
      satisying than shooting a 90 in a royal round using your skill, with
      a bow you built. Knowing full well that if you magically transported
      back in time you could put meat on the table or defend your keep!!

      YIS,

      Fionn McDougal
      Archery Warden, Caerthe, Outlands
    • Nathaniel S. Prentice
      Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona (i.e. Scottish Highlander in late 1500 s) be acceptable in an SCA tournament? Alisdar ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 31, 2002
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        Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona (i.e.
        Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA tournament?

        Alisdar

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Matt Hemmer <captmac382@...> [mailto:captmac382@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:58 PM
        To: SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA-Archery] "period" vs. "non-period"

        As for "period" equipment, there is a huge amount of evidence
        suggesting that the English war bow was simply that, a WAR bow.
        Having shot bows in wieght range of the "Mary Rose" bows, I can say
        that they are uncomfortable to shoot. Many cultures to include the
        English used other bows for hunting and sport shooting of a lighter
        wieght. The bows used by the military are in fact more the exception
        than the rule for individual bows. Keep in mind that these bows were
        made by a professional bowyer in mass. That means the quickest,
        easiest way to make alot of bows in a hurry. There are bows that date
        from pre-history that are better designed and the replicas shoot MUCH
        smoother, and last longer, than the ELB. In fact some of the turkish
        flight bows, still in use, are 400 years old. They can cast arrows
        close to 1/2 mile down range! I simply can't believe that these
        designs were lost to the bowyers of the time with the fall of Rome.

        Yew was not the only wood that turned into bows. Most of the
        Baltic states used Ash or Birch. But yew is the most forgiving when
        it comes to tillering time. Again we see fastest, easiest. The ELB
        design doesn't really lend itself to many other woods to make a high
        quality bow. The "D" shape (cross section, not tillering profile)
        puts an inordinate amount of strees on the belly of the bow in a very
        small amount of wood, leading to excessive set/string follow. Yew
        handles that stress better than most including oak. I propose that if
        not for the need of a huge amount of bows, very quickly, we never
        have seen the ELB classic "D" shape to begin with. They made ALOT of
        them there fore alot of them were preserved. Not so with the flatter,
        more rectangular bows in greater use in hunting and "sport" shooting.

        As for the craftsman ship of "period" bows... Bows have been around
        for something like 10,000 years. Bowyers have been around for 10,000
        years. You don't need a factory with presses, planes, shapers, ect.
        to make a bow. A few simple hand tools do the trick to make some of
        the smoothest, lasting, beautiful bows you have ever seen.Some of the
        primative archers knap their own tools from stone then proceed to
        build very high quality bows with those tools. Using modern tools and
        methods a good bowyer can produce a pretty good shooting bow in an
        amazingly small amount of time (like 20 min. or so). Imagine that
        same bowyer with time to spare building a bow. Breathing life into
        the wood. Giving it anima. Helping it to learn to sing. So take some
        of the "replica" bows you see out there with the same grain of salt
        you would take some of the "replica" armor out there. As "wall
        hangers" or ornaments. But don't shoot one and expect the same
        preformance as you would get from a bow that a bowyer created out of
        passion for the craft.

        The whole point is, shoot what you got, if that's what you want. As
        you get better and if your tendencies lead you that way, do a little
        research, get (or make) a period bow and learn! VERY little is more
        satisying than shooting a 90 in a royal round using your skill, with
        a bow you built. Knowing full well that if you magically transported
        back in time you could put meat on the table or defend your keep!!

        YIS,

        Fionn McDougal
        Archery Warden, Caerthe, Outlands















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      • Bob Upson
        ... Personna s have no real official existence in the SCA. Some people have them, some people don t. Indeed, some people have more than one. Of the people
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 31, 2002
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          On 31 Dec 2002 at 21:12, Nathaniel S. Prentice wrote:

          > Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona
          > (i.e. Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA
          > tournament?

          Personna's have no real official existence in the SCA. Some people
          have them, some people don't. Indeed, some people have more
          than one.

          Of the people who *do* play the personna game, some people only
          participate in activites "appropriate" to their personna, some people
          participate in any activity that interests them, personna "appropriate"
          or not. =)

          Unless the tournament organizer specifically requires it, one's
          personna -- if one has a personna -- need not have anything to do
          with the bow one shoots.

          YIS,
          Macsen
        • Carl West
          ... Definitely. Lots of folks have at most one set of garb that actually goes with their claimed date, place and heritage. For better or worse, the C doesn t
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 31, 2002
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            Nathaniel S. Prentice wrote:
            > Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona (i.e.
            > Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA tournament?
            >
            > Alisdar

            Definitely.
            Lots of folks have at most one set of garb that actually
            goes with their claimed date, place and heritage.
            For better or worse, the 'C' doesn't stand for 'Consistent'

            - Fritz, who wears Boksten-man garb and ~13th C. German Armor

            --
            Carl West eisen@... http://eisen.home.attbi.com

            I have no superfluous leisure; my stay must be stolen out
            of other affairs; but I will attend you awhile.

            - Isabella, Measure for Measure, Act 3 Scene 1
          • John Edgerton
            ... It should, unless the rules of the tournament require the use of bows and gear to fit your persona. Jon
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 31, 2002
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              Nathaniel S. Prentice wrote:

              >Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona (i.e.
              >Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA tournament?
              >
              >Alisdar
              >
              It should, unless the rules of the tournament require the use of bows
              and gear to fit your persona.

              Jon
            • Dan Scheid
              ... yes SCA does not match equipment to persona that is a personal choice Damales
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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                > Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona (i.e.
                > Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA tournament?
                >
                > Alisdar
                yes SCA does not match equipment to persona that is a personal choice
                Damales
              • Carolus Eulenhorst
                Yes. There is no requirement for a persona to even exist. Look at the number of Vikings fighting in 15th century plate. In service to the dream Carolus von
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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                  Yes. There is no requirement for a persona to even exist. Look at the
                  number of Vikings fighting in 15th century plate.

                  In service to the dream
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst
                  eulenhorst@...

                  On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:12:34 -0500 "Nathaniel S. Prentice"
                  <prentice@...> writes:
                  > Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the persona
                  > (i.e.
                  > Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA
                  > tournament?
                  >
                  > Alisdar

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                • James ap Llywelyn
                  Conversely, look at the number of late period personas fighting in spangenhelms! I am fortunate, as a Welshman from some time between the 13th and 16th
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 4, 2003
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                    Conversely, look at the number of "late period" personas fighting in
                    spangenhelms! I am fortunate, as a Welshman from some time between
                    the 13th and 16th centuries I use a longbow. I acquired a very
                    faithful rendition of the english longbow that pulls 30# at 28. My
                    Knight however, is a norseman through and through, firmly mired in
                    the 10th century, so I am often found in viborg shirts and leg
                    bindings as often as doublets or houpelandes. I think the only effect
                    persona has on archery is if you feel strongly about your persona and
                    it is one whose culture and time would have used a bow, then do the
                    research and try your hand at shooting something pertinent to your
                    persona. It really is fun.
                    It is important though to remember what has been stated here
                    regarding new shooters and traditional equipment. I have 12 expert
                    marksman awards with a modern rifle and after 3 months still have
                    difficulty getting my longbow to do the same thing twice! My knight
                    has a shoot-through bear recurve though that comes much closer to
                    consistency, I imagine due to a more forgiving design.
                    James ap Llywelyn


                    --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Carolus Eulenhorst
                    <eulenhorst@j...> wrote:
                    > Yes. There is no requirement for a persona to even exist. Look at
                    the
                    > number of Vikings fighting in 15th century plate.
                    >
                    > In service to the dream
                    > Carolus von Eulenhorst
                    > eulenhorst@j...
                    >
                    > On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:12:34 -0500 "Nathaniel S. Prentice"
                    > <prentice@s...> writes:
                    > > Yes, but would a recurve that is not known to fit with the
                    persona
                    > > (i.e.
                    > > Scottish Highlander in late 1500's) be acceptable in an SCA
                    > > tournament?
                    > >
                    > > Alisdar
                    >
                    > ________________________________________________________________
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