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Re: Arrow rest

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  • hanhebin
    ... What a flipper rest is designed to do is to hold the shaft of the arrow against the plunger during the entire shot. The flip comes after the arrow clears
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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      > What isn't allowed are mechanical, or spring rests (sometimes
      > called flipper rests). These are roughly the same configuration,
      > but have a little metal arm which adjusts and springs into place.
      > Again, go find one to look at, and it'll be obvious.

      What a flipper rest is designed to do is to hold the shaft of the
      arrow against the plunger during the entire shot. The flip comes
      after the arrow clears the rest the wire flips inwards towards the
      riser. For a good shooter it will dampen some of your minor mistakes
      but does little or nothing to help a bad shot.

      Michael
    • blockflute1@aol.com
      I m not sure if any of it is period. What kind archer are you that uses a recurve; Mongol, Turk, etc? I understand some European countries had recurve bows
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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        I'm not sure if any of it is period. What kind archer are you that uses a
        recurve; Mongol, Turk, etc? I understand some European countries had recurve
        bows although I do not know which ones. Are you one of these? I think arrow
        rests were fairly late devices from the 19th and 20th centuries but I am sure
        that one of the ancient archers could have used one.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • brennin2@aol.com
        ... Actually if nessassary it will be a bit of a heirloom from a relitive who fought somewhere or other. But the truth be known I am working backwards on my
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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          In a message dated 10/30/2002 6:52:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, blockflute1 writes:

          > I'm not sure if any of it is period. What kind archer are you that uses a
          > recurve; Mongol, Turk, etc? I understand some European countries had recurve
          > bows although I do not know which ones. Are you one of these? I think arrow
          > rests were fairly late devices from the 19th and 20th
          > centuries but I am sure
          > that one of the ancient archers could have used one.

          Actually if nessassary it will be a bit of a heirloom from a relitive who fought somewhere or other. But the truth be known I am working backwards on my bows. I have a compound that I can hit a taget with, just got the recurve. Once I can work the recurve I will go down to the traditional long bow. Also was eventualy going to ask about short bows, but that is for another post. Brennin
        • Bruce R. Gordon
          Greetings I ve seen St. Sebastian paintings done in Italy in the 15th century in which the archers were clearly using very modern looking recurves, so I ve
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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            Greetings
            I've seen St. Sebastian paintings done in Italy in the 15th
            century in which the archers were clearly using very modern looking
            recurves, so I've always assumed that there was knowledge of the style
            from an acceptably early date - certainly the Russians were familiar
            with them. In any event, you might not want to get tied down to
            shooting a bow that your persona would have been accustomed to - that
            gets really tangled and kind of frustrating. The SCA accepts every
            basic configuration of traditional bow, and allows for mylar and
            fibreglass... I'd advise you just work up your skills with whatever you
            have available before trying to recreate a totally authentic archer
            persona - if for no other reason than trying to pull 110 pound longbows
            would be, um, difficult. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention in my
            previous post - if you do decide to shoot off the hand, be sure to get
            a bow-hand glove, unless you think infected papercuts build character.

            Cordially;
            Nigel FitzMaurice

            > I'm not sure if any of it is period. What kind archer are you that
            uses a
            > recurve; Mongol, Turk, etc? I understand some European countries had
            recurve
            > bows although I do not know which ones. Are you one of these? I
            think arrow
            > rests were fairly late devices from the 19th and 20th centuries but I
            am sure
            > that one of the ancient archers could have used one.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
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          • J. Hughes
            Arrow rests can be easily dated to the 14th and 15th century in Islamic texts. They indicate they are much older than that. The recruve was definitely known in
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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              Arrow rests can be easily dated to the 14th and 15th
              century in Islamic texts. They indicate they are much
              older than that.

              The recruve was definitely known in Europe. There are
              pictures of military engagements that show recruve and
              any mention of horse archery usually means either
              recruve or crossbow. (It was possible to shoot a short
              strait bow from horse back but that is not what is
              pictured.)For example I have in front of me a woodcut
              of the Emperor Maximilian of the Holy Roman Empire
              shooting a recruve at a target.

              Charles O'Connor
              --- blockflute1@... wrote:
              > I'm not sure if any of it is period. What kind
              > archer are you that uses a
              > recurve; Mongol, Turk, etc? I understand some
              > European countries had recurve
              > bows although I do not know which ones. Are you one
              > of these? I think arrow
              > rests were fairly late devices from the 19th and
              > 20th centuries but I am sure
              > that one of the ancient archers could have used one.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >
              > ---8<---------------------------------------------
              > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2002 by
              > Medieval Mart
              > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's
              > http://www.medievalmart.com/
              >
              > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to
              > leave this list]
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


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            • Carolus Eulenhorst
              Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are actually simple wire rests and thus allowed. The real difficulty are the rests with internal
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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                Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are actually
                simple wire rests and thus allowed. The real difficulty are the rests
                with internal springs which allow the arrow plate itself (the surface
                which rests against the side of the arrow) to move to compensate for the
                side pressure of the arrow against the bow or those which positively snap
                away from the arrow. The latter are usually listed as magnetic rests,
                "snap" rests, or flipper rests. This is basically a judgement call by
                the Range Marshal. I teach my marshals that a liberal view should be
                taken and if the rest provides no mechanical advantage to the archer, is
                not adjustable, and does not appear manifestly modern at a reasonable
                viewing distance it should be allowed.

                In service to the dream
                Lord Carolus von Eulenhorst
                Master of Archers, Kingdom of Caid
                eulenhorst@...

                On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:55:50 -0500 "Bruce R. Gordon" <obsidian@...>
                writes:
                > Greetings
                > An arrow rest for recurves is a useful thing to have, and some
                > are
                > permitted in the SCA. Period practice is a bit obscure here,
                > especially
                > for recurve styles which were used mainly by Turks and Steppe nomads
                >
                > rather than Westerners. I think there is some evidence in Western
                > longbows for built-up rests consisting of chips of wood or bone,
                > tied
                > to the grip or inserted into the wrapping - anyone else have more
                > precise documentation?
                > As far as SCA practice goes, any of a variety of passive rests
                > are
                > permitted. By "passive rest", I refer to what typically appear as
                > small
                > rubber or plastic pads that you glue onto the side of the cut-out,
                > that
                > have a lttle arm-and-hook dingus the juts out at a bit of an angle -
                > go
                > to a bow shop and ask to see one, you'll see what I mean. They are
                > extremely cheap, and very easy to attach. They are also easy to
                > remove
                > and replace, necessary since they do wear out eventually. There are
                >
                > left- and right-handed varieties, be sure to get the correct type.
                > You
                > can also build up the shelf, create a shelf in roughly the manner I
                >
                > described above, or use any of a wide variety of other fixed or
                > passive
                > systems.
                > What isn't allowed are mechanical, or spring rests (sometimes
                > called flipper rests). These are roughly the same configuration, but
                >
                > have a little metal arm which adjusts and springs into place. Again,
                > go
                > find one to look at, and it'll be obvious.
                >
                > Cordially;
                > Nigel FitzMaurice

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              • hanhebin
                ... Vivat!!! I think too many people within the SCA are unfamilar with these modern archery devices. I shot a 274 Vegas Round today and if I would of removed
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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                  > This is basically a judgement call by the Range Marshal. I teach
                  > my marshals that a liberal view should be taken and if the rest
                  > provides no mechanical advantage to the archer, is not adjustable,
                  > and does not appear manifestly modern at a reasonable viewing
                  > distance it should be allowed.

                  Vivat!!!

                  I think too many people within the SCA are unfamilar with these
                  modern archery devices. I shot a 274 Vegas Round today and if I
                  would of removed the magnet from my flipper rest I would of probably
                  still shot a 274.

                  Michael
                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  ... Snip Does the keeper of the IKAC/Winter Round/ Royal Rounds know this? Wire rests are out(not allowed) in my view. James Cunningham
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 31, 2002
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                    > Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are actually
                    > simple wire rests and thus allowed.
                    Snip

                    Does the keeper of the IKAC/Winter Round/ Royal Rounds know this?
                    Wire rests are out(not allowed) in my view.

                    James Cunningham
                  • Bruce R. Gordon
                    Greetings Speaking for the Midrealm in general and the Winter Challenge (everyone DID see the reminder yesterday about it starting again tomorrow, right? ) in
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 31, 2002
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                      Greetings
                      Speaking for the Midrealm in general and the Winter Challenge
                      (everyone DID see the reminder yesterday about it starting again
                      tomorrow, right? ) in particular, the manual specifically allows for
                      wire rests if they are not adjustable (1.2.1.C.4). You do see them
                      sometimes when inspecting - whenever I see wire instead of rubber or
                      plastic, the first thing I do is check to see if it is a spring mount
                      or simply a bit of wire sticking immovably out. As a previous writer
                      mentioned a day or so ago, the difference is a bit subtle, and can be
                      considered something of a value judgement on the part of the inspecting
                      marshal. But for what it's worth, James, the manual does distinguish
                      between the two types.

                      Cordially;
                      Forester Nigel FitzMaurice, Midrealm AG

                      >
                      >
                      > > Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are
                      actually
                      > > simple wire rests and thus allowed.
                      > Snip
                      >
                      > Does the keeper of the IKAC/Winter Round/ Royal Rounds know this?
                      > Wire rests are out(not allowed) in my view.
                      >
                      > James Cunningham
                      >
                      > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                      > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2002 by Medieval Mart
                      > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                      >
                      > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >

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                      Ex Tenebra, Lux

                      http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
                    • Carolus Eulenhorst
                      Please allow me to quote from the rules posted by Simon (the emphasis is mine): 4) No modern spring/flipper rests or plunger buttons are allowed. The use
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 31, 2002
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                        Please allow me to quote from the rules posted by Simon (the emphasis is
                        mine):

                        4) No modern spring/flipper rests or plunger buttons are allowed.
                        The
                        use of simple rests is allowed, such as: simple one-piece plastic or
                        non-adjustable wire rests; feather, bristle, leather, etc. rests; built
                        out
                        shelves or rests. The use of the shelf in a cut-out window is also
                        allowed.

                        As to IKAC or Winter Challenge it depends on the ruling of the keeper of
                        the shoot as they are private shoots. Royal Rounds are typically run by
                        kingdom with somewhat more flexible intrerpretations.

                        In service to the dream
                        Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        eulenhorst@...

                        On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:03:22 -0500 "James W. Pratt, Jr."
                        <cunning@...> writes:
                        >
                        >
                        > > Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are
                        > actually
                        > > simple wire rests and thus allowed.
                        > Snip
                        >
                        > Does the keeper of the IKAC/Winter Round/ Royal Rounds know this?
                        > Wire rests are out(not allowed) in my view.
                        >
                        > James Cunningham

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • hanhebin
                        ... I try as much as possible to bring SCA legal equipment but sometimes it just isn t possible. Not every time I also want to use loaner equipment for good
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 31, 2002
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                          > 4) No modern spring/flipper rests or plunger buttons are allowed.

                          I try as much as possible to bring SCA legal equipment but sometimes
                          it just isn't possible. Not every time I also want to use loaner
                          equipment for good reason. There is good possibility that the
                          Olympic Trials will be in your kingdom next year and I wouldn't mind
                          shooting again with you folks but wouldn't want to be turned away and
                          prevented from shooting just because I'm using more modern appliances.


                          Michael
                        • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                          Thanks! Back to the books! James Cunningham in particular, the manual specifically allows for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 31, 2002
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                            Thanks! Back to the books!

                            James Cunningham

                            in particular, the manual specifically allows for
                            > wire rests if they are not adjustable (1.2.1.C.4). You do see them
                            > sometimes when inspecting - whenever I see wire instead of rubber or
                            > plastic, the first thing I do is check to see if it is a spring mount
                            > or simply a bit of wire sticking immovably out. As a previous writer
                            > mentioned a day or so ago, the difference is a bit subtle, and can be
                            > considered something of a value judgement on the part of the inspecting
                            > marshal. But for what it's worth, James, the manual does distinguish
                            > between the two types.
                          • hanhebin
                            ... You can disable a magnetic flipper rest by simply adjusting the wire arm away from the arrow shaft. The adjustment on my flipper rest takes about 5
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 1, 2002
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                              >> Many rests sold as spring rests are also allowed as they are
                              >> actually simple wire rests and thus allowed.

                              > Speaking for the Midrealm in general and the Winter Challenge
                              > (everyone DID see the reminder yesterday about it starting again
                              > tomorrow, right? ) in particular, the manual specifically allows
                              > for wire rests if they are not adjustable (1.2.1.C.4). You do see
                              > them sometimes when inspecting - whenever I see wire instead of
                              > rubber or plastic, the first thing I do is check to see if it is a
                              > spring mount or simply a bit of wire sticking immovably out. As a
                              > previous writer mentioned a day or so ago, the difference is a bit
                              > subtle, and can be considered something of a value judgement on the
                              > part of the inspecting marshal. But for what it's worth, James, the
                              > manual does distinguish between the two types.

                              You can disable a magnetic flipper rest by simply adjusting the wire
                              arm away from the arrow shaft. The adjustment on my flipper rest
                              takes about 5 seconds to do and there are ABSOLUTELY no ill effects.

                              Michael
                            • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                              Greetings to all of the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie, I have heard that there was a fighting discipline where spear-tips were fitted over the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 1, 2002
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                                Greetings to all of the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
                                I have heard that there was a fighting discipline where spear-tips
                                were fitted over the heads of yumi to facilitate close combat for
                                those who used bows. Do any of you have pictorial refs for such...Are
                                their descriptions, or refs telling of how and when these might have
                                been used in period, or is it a post period thing? It sounds Sengoku
                                Jidai, but I don't know?
                                I found a web site depicting such, but I cannot account for the
                                validity of the research, as it looks cheezy, and the photos are
                                definitely post period.
                                Anyone with more understanding would be welcome to enlighten us...
                                Ever curious about yumi, and their uses...
                                Date Yukiie



                                Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                                Shi-wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                                http://www.kabutographics.com
                                Kabuto@c...
                              • Marko Peussa
                                There isn t too much material around. The following is an excerpt from the book: Kyudo, The Way of The Bow, Feliks Hoff, ISBN 1-57062-852-1 ...Having come to
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 1, 2002
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                                  There isn't too much material around. The following is an excerpt from the
                                  book: Kyudo, The Way of The Bow, Feliks Hoff, ISBN 1-57062-852-1

                                  "...Having come to within a few meters of the target, he then took his bow
                                  under his arm and used it as a thrusting weapon, accompanying his thrust
                                  with a long kiai. It was not at all unusual to use the bow as a thrusting
                                  weapon. Often war bows had a lance set into the tip, or else, if his string
                                  had broken, the archer bound his short sword onto the upper end of his bow
                                  and then used it as a naginata..."

                                  So, in principle you have two ways. The first: thrust only, the second, like
                                  naginata. As for the thrust, one-handed thrust is made for example in the
                                  Heki ceremony shooting. You grip the bow handle with the left hand, string
                                  facing to the left, take three steps forward and while turning sideways
                                  extend your left arm to thrust at the target. At the end of the thrust the
                                  foot of the bow touches your back. For the two handed thrust, the closest
                                  thing I've seen is in the Satsuma Heki Ryu Video. Grip the bow handle with
                                  the left hand and the foot of the bow with the right hand.

                                  As for the naginata, you have plenty of material around.

                                  Battle shooting is still taught in Heki Ryu Insai Ha at advanced level.
                                  Another Ryu that does battle shooting is Satsuma Heki Ryu. According to Mori
                                  sensei of Insai Ha, it is possible to go Japan and take training with
                                  Satsuma Heki guys. When I asked how long it would take, he said that only a
                                  few weeks are necessary. So you have the option of going to Satsuma Heki Ryu
                                  for training, or to Heki Ryu Insai Ha. In the latter case it will take
                                  several years before you have the chance to try to learn battle shooting. I
                                  have taken this path.

                                  In the book Kyudo, Shooting the Japanese Bow, Japanese and English Technical
                                  Terms, by Hans Gundermann, there is a picture of the sharp lance head for
                                  the bow. It is called UCHINE, and is almost like a very short arrow, like a
                                  dart with feathers and spearhead. It could be used as a tip for the bow or
                                  as a projectile(!).

                                  Klaus



                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie" <kabuto@...>
                                  To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 18:25
                                  Subject: [SCA-Archery] Yumi and such


                                  > Greetings to all of the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie,
                                  > I have heard that there was a fighting discipline where spear-tips
                                  > were fitted over the heads of yumi to facilitate close combat for
                                  > those who used bows. Do any of you have pictorial refs for such...Are
                                  > their descriptions, or refs telling of how and when these might have
                                  > been used in period, or is it a post period thing? It sounds Sengoku
                                  > Jidai, but I don't know?
                                  > I found a web site depicting such, but I cannot account for the
                                  > validity of the research, as it looks cheezy, and the photos are
                                  > definitely post period.
                                  > Anyone with more understanding would be welcome to enlighten us...
                                  > Ever curious about yumi, and their uses...
                                  > Date Yukiie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                                  > Shi-wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                                  > http://www.kabutographics.com
                                  > Kabuto@c...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---8<---------------------------------------------
                                  > Brought to you YahooGroups Ad Free in 2002 by Medieval Mart
                                  > Get Medieval at Mad Macsen's http://www.medievalmart.com/
                                  >
                                  > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to leave this list]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                • akiba79
                                  Thankyou for the information concerning the arrow rest on bows.........tis much appreciated. Alis
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 21, 2005
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                                    Thankyou for the information concerning the arrow rest on
                                    bows.........tis much appreciated.
                                    Alis
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