titles and forms of address
- As I have a member of my household that is on the
Laurel Sovereign's staff, and works Spanish names and
titles, I asked her on the use of "don" and the
authority of the College of Arms.
--- julias@... wrote:
> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:52:50 -0400 (EDT)__________________________________________________
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [SCA-Archery] Arcuarius
> From: <julias@...>
> To: <jphughessr@...>
> > I take it there is a question of Laural authority
> > all this that goes beyond the issue of if the
> > alternative titles list is valid. ??
> Well, sure. Just because A~B and B~C doesn't mean
> that A~C. In these
> cases, a single term of address is used for a
> broader class of people than
> we expect in English. Of course, period practice
> isn't as clean as we
> like to think it is in English, as you will quickly
> realize if you start
> reading courtly letters.
> Don is a term of address that is used for *everyone*
> from the petty gentry
> (hidalgos) up to the king. You can find phrases
> like "el rey don Alfonso"
> all through the Cantar del Mio Cid.
> And this continues to this day: An official website
> gives the current king
> as "Su Majestad el Rey Don Juan Carlos I." You may
> identify him simply as
> "Su Majestad el Rey" or as "Don Juan Carlos" You
> may see all three cases
> on this page.
> Does that mean that I think that the older folks
> that I call <Don+first
> name> are the king? Not any more than you think
> that the folks who you
> call Sir are all the commander in chief. Don is
> equivalent to <Sir> in
> that way; it doesn't reflect specific rank, but
> general respect.
> I'm not sure why people have made the leap from
> terms of address being the
> same to rank being equivalent. Does that mean that
> in the SCA we think
> that Barons, Counts, and Viscounts are "equivalent"
> because we call them
> all your excellency? Does that mean that if I get a
> Court Baroncy, I can
> start wearing a county coronet? I don't *think* so.
> But it's exactly the
> same case as we're discussing here.
> >> that IF
> >> the paper copy is the same as the online copy,
> >> College
> >> of Heralds no longer have the authority to
> >> this
> >> list. If the paper copy is NOT the same as the
> >> online, why
> >> not? Does anyone have the latest paper copy of
> >> Corpora? Does
> >> it have an 'Appendix C'? If it does not have this
> Wrong. The authority is clearly vested in Laurel in
> Corpora, which says
> VI.C.1. Laurel Sovereign of Arms
> The Laurel Sovereign of Arms (Laurel) is the
> principal heraldic officer of
> the Society and the head of the College of Arms.
> Laurel is responsible
> for fostering the study and practice of heraldry,
> and for establishing
> rules and making determinations regarding names and
> royal and noble titles, and geogrpahical
> designations to be approved for
> use in the Society.
> Therefore, the old Appendix C is not necessary.
> This is reiterated in Section VIII. Personal Awards
> and Titles, under
> D.Titles, Corpora says:
> in 2.
> "Such alternate titles may be used....provided the
> College of Arms has
> ruled that the title in question is an equivalent
> for the rank or award in
> in 4.
> "...In addition, the College of Arms has full
> approval authority over new
> alternative titles..."
> >> Spanish personas only, of course. It does not
> >> that
> >> the Ansteorran use of Don/Dona as restricted
> >> of
> >> members of the Order of the White Scarf had to be
> >> approved
> >> by the Laurel of Arms before the Kingdom could
> >> such an
> >> award or start such an 'order'.
> The Order of the White Scarf has been registered to
> the Kingdom of
> Ansteorra (and then in various forms to a wide
> variety of others, with
> letters of permission to conflict). The kingdom did
> not consult with
> Laurel regarding the form of address of members of
> that order. Given
> this, they are welcome to use the title "Lady" and
> "Lord" and such
> alternate titles as they wish approved by Laurel,
> including <don> and
> <don~a>. However, when they try to limit this
> usage, they haven't a leg
> to stand on.
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