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Re: period shoots

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  • Bob & Nancy Upson
    ... They don t know any better. If nobody ever shows them more interesting and challenging shoots, how could they know about them? Macsen
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 1999
      > most of the lesser archers I have come in contact with WANT royal rounds.
      > many times at events I hear, "we gonna have RR's soon....we gonna have time
      > for RR's Sunday morning before breakdown?".

      They don't know any better. If nobody ever shows them more
      interesting and challenging shoots, how could they know about
      them?

      Macsen
    • Taylesedrin
      Ok, as a newbie I ve been lurking on this list since July, but I have to reply to Macsen s comments. I ve listed that reply below, so you can see the thread
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 1999
        Ok, as a 'newbie' I've been lurking on this list since July, but I have to
        reply to Macsen's comments. I've listed that reply below, so you can see
        the thread I'm replying to.


        > > most of the lesser archers I have come in contact with WANT
        > royal rounds.
        > > many times at events I hear, "we gonna have RR's soon....we
        > gonna have time
        > > for RR's Sunday morning before breakdown?".
        >
        > They don't know any better. If nobody ever shows them more
        > interesting and challenging shoots, how could they know about
        > them?
        >
        > Macsen
        >

        As a new archer, I want to reply to this. First a few details about me for
        background. I hail from the Canton of Port de L'eau, Barony of Madrona, An
        Tir and picked up a bow for the first time in the middle of July. It is a
        quality recurve(35# Martin x200), as I was advised that this was a better
        'learner' bow for me then a longbow. To forestall the period equipment
        discussion, I do plan to shift to more period equipment after I have a firm
        grasp of the basics.

        With that bit of introduction out of the way, I want to add my two pence on
        the Royal Rounds. Probably 95% of my shooting so far has been Royal Rounds.
        Do I feel cheated? Do I feel that I just don't know better? ABSOLUTELY
        NOT! When I started, I was lucky to hit the target, forget the paper or
        scoring rings! At the end of September I achieved a huge personal goal,
        making the rank of Archer based on my RR scores. This was not a competition
        with my fellow shooters, this was a competition with /myself/. My newly
        discovered love of Archery kept me going to the line, but the RR scoring
        helped me gauge my progress.

        Reasons I like Royal Rounds or don't understand this huge 'period'
        discussion:

        * I absolutely agree with HL Aleksei Zateev(to whom I can only say Huzzah!,
        as his shooting, leadership and teaching is truly amazing in my short tenure
        in the SCA), Robert the Doubtful and others who have suggested that the RR
        has a valued place as a teaching tool for new archers. I'm not saying that
        RRs are the reason I shoot, just that I would have found the variety of
        other shoots I've seen much more daunting and less helpful as an initial
        learning experience. While they were certainly interesting, they seem much
        more suitable for experienced archers seeking new ways to test their already
        amazing skills.

        * How are Royal Rounds not Period? Royals seem to bring a bit of
        organization and excitement to stock practice and encourage a variety of
        skills. I can't believe that medieval archers didn't practice from a
        variety of distances and test their speed skills. No, I have no
        documentable proof of this, but isn't it logical? If you have issues with
        the distances, suggest more 'period' alternatives. If the problem is the 60
        cm, 5 ring target, find and provide a standardizable 'period' alternative.
        If the problem is the speed round, how do you suggest we test archer speed?
        Royal Rounds seem to me to be a representation of a training tool that
        medieval archers /might/ have used. With that said, I do see them as a
        training tool and personal progress measurement, nothing more. Certainly
        tourneys and championships should include other sorts of shoots.

        * Different ranges, different potentials. I'm from suburban Seattle. We
        don't have lots of space for practice ranges. My Canton is lucky to have a
        member with a horse pasture. Many archers in my Barony practice with other
        baronies, or in indoor ranges! Royals(for practice, scored or not) might be
        possible at an indoor range, but not many of the alternate shoots I've heard
        discussed(Yorks for example).

        * Some contributors have called for separation of scores by bow type. In An
        Tir RR scores are separated into divisions, Crossbow, Longbow 1, Longbow 2,
        Open and Period based on the archer's equipment.

        * How does shooting Royals prevent archers from learning period techniques?
        When I started shooting, the idea that I leave both eyes open made no sense
        to me. I closed one eye, aimed using the other and it all made sense.
        After shooting for a couple of months, I left the both eyes open and my
        clustering and scores dramatically improved. I was shooting the dreaded
        Royal Round, but I had obtained a familiarity with shooting, and possibly
        more importantly, could see the difference because I was using a standard
        scoring!

        Lastly, I've seen lots of discussion about how RRs are evil and other shoots
        are better, but very little on what these other shoots are? If RRs are so
        bad, please provide a solution, not just a complaint!

        Tayla of Winds
      • KC
        (big snip) Lastly, I ve seen lots of discussion about how RRs are evil and other shoots are better, but very little on what these other shoots are? If RRs are
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 1999
          (big snip)
          Lastly, I've seen lots of discussion about how RRs are evil and other
          shoots
          are better, but very little on what these other shoots are? If RRs are so
          bad, please provide a solution, not just a complaint!

          Tayla of Winds

          I too would like to see discussions on different types of shoots. I feel
          that RR's have a definite function and are very useful, especially for
          beginners and general practice. I think that the evils are being generated
          by the use of them as a ranking system and there are good arguments on both
          sides of this discussion. I personally get tired of spot shooting (aiming
          at the yellow spot) and I am always looking for new, different, challenging
          and, if possible, moving things to shoot at.

          Karrick


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        • Leonard & Patty Baldt
          Greetings: Thank you Tayla! Very well stated. An te raudh, Shire of Vulkanfeldt An Tir
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 2, 1999
            Greetings:
            Thank you Tayla! Very well stated.
            An te' raudh, Shire of Vulkanfeldt
            An Tir

            Taylesedrin wrote:

            > From: "Taylesedrin" <tayla@...>
            >
            > Ok, as a 'newbie' I've been lurking on this list since July, but I have to
            > reply to Macsen's comments. I've listed that reply below, so you can see
            > the thread I'm replying to.
            >
            > > > most of the lesser archers I have come in contact with WANT
            > > royal rounds.
            > > > many times at events I hear, "we gonna have RR's soon....we
            > > gonna have time
            > > > for RR's Sunday morning before breakdown?".
            > >
            > > They don't know any better. If nobody ever shows them more
            > > interesting and challenging shoots, how could they know about
            > > them?
            > >
            > > Macsen
            > >
            >
            > As a new archer, I want to reply to this. First a few details about me for
            > background. I hail from the Canton of Port de L'eau, Barony of Madrona, An
            > Tir and picked up a bow for the first time in the middle of July. It is a
            > quality recurve(35# Martin x200), as I was advised that this was a better
            > 'learner' bow for me then a longbow. To forestall the period equipment
            > discussion, I do plan to shift to more period equipment after I have a firm
            > grasp of the basics.
            >
            > With that bit of introduction out of the way, I want to add my two pence on
            > the Royal Rounds. Probably 95% of my shooting so far has been Royal Rounds.
            > Do I feel cheated? Do I feel that I just don't know better? ABSOLUTELY
            > NOT! When I started, I was lucky to hit the target, forget the paper or
            > scoring rings! At the end of September I achieved a huge personal goal,
            > making the rank of Archer based on my RR scores. This was not a competition
            > with my fellow shooters, this was a competition with /myself/. My newly
            > discovered love of Archery kept me going to the line, but the RR scoring
            > helped me gauge my progress.
            >
            > Reasons I like Royal Rounds or don't understand this huge 'period'
            > discussion:
            >
            > * I absolutely agree with HL Aleksei Zateev(to whom I can only say Huzzah!,
            > as his shooting, leadership and teaching is truly amazing in my short tenure
            > in the SCA), Robert the Doubtful and others who have suggested that the RR
            > has a valued place as a teaching tool for new archers. I'm not saying that
            > RRs are the reason I shoot, just that I would have found the variety of
            > other shoots I've seen much more daunting and less helpful as an initial
            > learning experience. While they were certainly interesting, they seem much
            > more suitable for experienced archers seeking new ways to test their already
            > amazing skills.
            >
            > * How are Royal Rounds not Period? Royals seem to bring a bit of
            > organization and excitement to stock practice and encourage a variety of
            > skills. I can't believe that medieval archers didn't practice from a
            > variety of distances and test their speed skills. No, I have no
            > documentable proof of this, but isn't it logical? If you have issues with
            > the distances, suggest more 'period' alternatives. If the problem is the 60
            > cm, 5 ring target, find and provide a standardizable 'period' alternative.
            > If the problem is the speed round, how do you suggest we test archer speed?
            > Royal Rounds seem to me to be a representation of a training tool that
            > medieval archers /might/ have used. With that said, I do see them as a
            > training tool and personal progress measurement, nothing more. Certainly
            > tourneys and championships should include other sorts of shoots.
            >
            > * Different ranges, different potentials. I'm from suburban Seattle. We
            > don't have lots of space for practice ranges. My Canton is lucky to have a
            > member with a horse pasture. Many archers in my Barony practice with other
            > baronies, or in indoor ranges! Royals(for practice, scored or not) might be
            > possible at an indoor range, but not many of the alternate shoots I've heard
            > discussed(Yorks for example).
            >
            > * Some contributors have called for separation of scores by bow type. In An
            > Tir RR scores are separated into divisions, Crossbow, Longbow 1, Longbow 2,
            > Open and Period based on the archer's equipment.
            >
            > * How does shooting Royals prevent archers from learning period techniques?
            > When I started shooting, the idea that I leave both eyes open made no sense
            > to me. I closed one eye, aimed using the other and it all made sense.
            > After shooting for a couple of months, I left the both eyes open and my
            > clustering and scores dramatically improved. I was shooting the dreaded
            > Royal Round, but I had obtained a familiarity with shooting, and possibly
            > more importantly, could see the difference because I was using a standard
            > scoring!
            >
            > Lastly, I've seen lots of discussion about how RRs are evil and other shoots
            > are better, but very little on what these other shoots are? If RRs are so
            > bad, please provide a solution, not just a complaint!
            >
            > Tayla of Winds
            >
            > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
            > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
            > [SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
          • Jack Bradley
            ... Me and I believe Andras Ragnar Two Ax
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 2, 1999
              Rlongbow@... wrote:

              > From: Rlongbow@...
              >
              > it seems most of the folk here replying are in the fairly high ranking
              > stage.
              > what most of you folks are missing is that period practice targets are
              > HARD.
              > a 12inch board at 100 yards? what newbie can hit that? how soon would that
              > newbie (if practices consisted of soley periond targets) say, "bag this, I'll
              > go fight instead."
              > the royal round is a standard that new archers can use to demonstrate
              > their increase in skill. don't you folk remember the look in a new archer's
              > eyes when they first hit even Marksman?
              > most of the lesser archers I have come in contact with WANT royal rounds.
              > many times at events I hear, "we gonna have RR's soon....we gonna have time
              > for RR's Sunday morning before breakdown?".
              > the very high rankings are nice to see get presented and are appreciated
              > for their effort but will most probably forever beyond the rank and file
              > archers - how many can afford a good period crossbow ? (or even a good
              > handbow) and how many LUD's haven't used a good crossbow in at least one of
              > the ranking shoots?

              Me and I believe Andras
              Ragnar Two Ax

              >
              > what I have noticed in my years as a marshall, is that many times those
              > who complain that we spend too much time solely shooting RR's are the higher
              > ranks - most of us lower life forms are perfectly happy with RR's during
              > practice and would like those same RR's offered at events maybe after the
              > "neat" shoots are done.
              > Robert the Doubtful, East, bowman (until my scores expire)
              >
              > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
              > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
              > [SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
            • Carl West at home
              ... There are those that will argue that white sugar is _bad_ for you because it doesn t do as much _good_ for you as other foods. OK, but sometimes all I m
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 3, 1999
                > ...lots of discussion about how RRs are evil ...

                There are those that will argue that white sugar is _bad_ for you
                because it doesn't do as much _good_ for you as other foods. OK, but
                sometimes all I'm looking for is some calories.

                RRs are the white sugar of SCA archery. Yes, you get a lot of arrows
                shot and there's something learned every time you shoot an arrow, but
                that'll happen no matter what you shoot at. If you can vary your archery
                diet, you'll be a healthier archer. If you need some 'empty calories'
                every now and then, hey, shoot some RRs. You'll be shooting at least.
                But a good archer has a broad appetite and doesn't mind the occasional
                150yd lima bean. It's good for you, shoot! shoot!.

                Fritz
                --
                Carl West
                mailto:eisen@...
                http://people.ne.mediaone.net/eisen

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              • Karl Sandhoff
                We used a rover, the wand, shooting the prick, and a ono-on-one contest derived from the Gyldenholt Forester s Round which was in turn based on shooting the
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 4, 1999
                  We used a rover, the wand, shooting the prick, and a ono-on-one contest
                  derived from the Gyldenholt Forester's Round which was in turn based on
                  shooting the prick. I would like to add more variety in the future.
                  Carolus von Eulenhorst

                  On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:54:37 -0500 Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
                  writes:
                  >From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
                  >
                  >Carolus wrote:
                  >> While running practice for another barony I attempted to move the
                  >> practices towards more period styles. During this time I had six
                  >new
                  >> archers join the group. After several weeks of period practice all
                  >were
                  >> ready to quit SCA archery as they complained that they had not
                  >scored a
                  >> single point in practice and saw no improvement.
                  >
                  >Pray tell, exactly what shoots were you doing? I don't see emulating
                  >the
                  >Luttrel Psalter as much different from that so-called cursed 18th
                  >century 5 ring target that has the RR haters so upset.
                  >--
                  >Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
                  >- Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
                  >http://web.raex.com/~agincort
                  >
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                • Karl Sandhoff
                  I try to use period forms with ranges adjusted for the skill level of most SCA archers. After all, for most of these shooters archery is only one of many
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 4, 1999
                    I try to use period forms with ranges adjusted for the skill level of
                    most SCA archers. After all, for most of these shooters archery is only
                    one of many activities they are involved in. I saw the light in many a
                    novices eye when they outshot a Royal Bowmaster in some of the components
                    of the shoots I have been running. Using both period and RR forms works
                    to get and hold their interest and advance their skills. My big
                    objection is using RR's for the primary and high profile activities.
                    Carolus von Eulenhorst

                    On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:15:35 EST Rlongbow@... writes:
                    >From: Rlongbow@...
                    >
                    > it seems most of the folk here replying are in the fairly high
                    >ranking
                    >stage.
                    > what most of you folks are missing is that period practice targets
                    >are
                    >HARD.
                    > a 12inch board at 100 yards? what newbie can hit that? how soon
                    >would that
                    >newbie (if practices consisted of soley periond targets) say, "bag
                    >this, I'll
                    >go fight instead."
                    > the royal round is a standard that new archers can use to
                    >demonstrate
                    >their increase in skill. don't you folk remember the look in a new
                    >archer's
                    >eyes when they first hit even Marksman?
                    > most of the lesser archers I have come in contact with WANT royal
                    >rounds.
                    >many times at events I hear, "we gonna have RR's soon....we gonna have
                    >time
                    >for RR's Sunday morning before breakdown?".
                    > the very high rankings are nice to see get presented and are
                    >appreciated
                    >for their effort but will most probably forever beyond the rank and
                    >file
                    >archers - how many can afford a good period crossbow ? (or even a good
                    >
                    >handbow) and how many LUD's haven't used a good crossbow in at least
                    >one of
                    >the ranking shoots?
                    > what I have noticed in my years as a marshall, is that many times
                    >those
                    >who complain that we spend too much time solely shooting RR's are the
                    >higher
                    >ranks - most of us lower life forms are perfectly happy with RR's
                    >during
                    >practice and would like those same RR's offered at events maybe after
                    >the
                    >"neat" shoots are done.
                    > Robert the Doubtful, East, bowman (until my scores
                    >expire)
                    >
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                  • Ian Gourdon
                    ... Aside from the wand, and I assume the rover is what we tend to call a woods walk , I m not sure I follow what these shoot are. Care to expand on what they
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 5, 1999
                      >We used a rover, the wand, shooting the prick, and a ono-on-one contest derived from >the Gyldenholt Forester's Round which was in turn based on shooting the prick. I would >like to add more variety in the future.
                      >Carolus von Eulenhorst

                      Aside from the wand, and I assume the rover is what we tend to call a
                      'woods walk', I'm not sure I follow what these shoot are. Care to expand
                      on what they all are for you? I'm pretty sure I've never shot a prick...
                      ;^)
                      --
                      Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
                      - Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
                      http://web.raex.com/~agincort
                    • Karl Sandhoff
                      I believe that the rover is a variant of the woods walk (if we both are using the term to mean a walk thru the woods where an archer picks a mark and then all
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 7, 1999
                        I believe that the rover is a variant of the woods walk (if we both are
                        using the term to mean a walk thru the woods where an archer picks a mark
                        and then all try to hit it with the archer coming closest getting to pick
                        the next mark) some call it a "follow the leader shoot". Shooting the
                        prick is a more period term for what is sometimes called a "period
                        bullseye". It is a hit/miss shoot with the size of the bull set to
                        accomodate the skill level of the archers. As I had a large number of
                        relatively new archers I used a three point bull and a 1 point ring
                        surrounding it. While not truly period, it had the advantage of
                        maintaining interest and lessening frustration. We shot at progressively
                        longer distances based on the archers RR based ranking for the wand and
                        the prick. For the rover I set three random distances on each of the
                        three different distance bales and then allowed the archer setting the
                        mark to select a shooting position and bale thus yielding 27 different
                        possible shots. The total shoot took about 5 hours and was enjoyed by
                        all, or so I was told.
                        Carolus von Eulenhorst

                        On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:34:20 -0500 Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
                        writes:
                        >From: Ian Gourdon <agincort@...>
                        >
                        >>We used a rover, the wand, shooting the prick, and a ono-on-one
                        >contest derived from >the Gyldenholt Forester's Round which was in
                        >turn based on shooting the prick. I would >like to add more variety
                        >in the future.
                        >>Carolus von Eulenhorst
                        >
                        >Aside from the wand, and I assume the rover is what we tend to call a
                        >'woods walk', I'm not sure I follow what these shoot are. Care to
                        >expand
                        >on what they all are for you? I'm pretty sure I've never shot a
                        >prick...
                        >;^)
                        >--
                        >Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
                        >- Companion of the order of the Greenwood Company
                        >http://web.raex.com/~agincort
                        >
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                      • Chris Nogy
                        ... So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem for those
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                          > From: Karl Sandhoff <eulenhorst@...>

                          > We shot at progressively
                          > longer distances based on the archers RR based ranking for the wand and
                          > the prick.


                          So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                          exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem for
                          those kingdoms that don't shoot RR) and now it is being used as the designator
                          to determine which range you can shoot at? Are our marshals working so hard to
                          artificially inflate the sense of accomplishment that we even declare for
                          somebody what ranges they shoot from so that they don't have a chance to fail?
                          I don't mean to be insulting here, but what is this, the Special Olympics?
                          (Yes, I know. I believe in the Special Olympics program as a way to reach a
                          very specific group of people with a very good message. But you don't see the
                          World Olympic Commission adopting those rules for the regular Olympic games,
                          because we expect the average person in this world to be capable of taking a
                          little furstration and living through it.)

                          I think (no, now I know) that there is just too much emphasis on the RR as the
                          be-all and end-all of archery (without those scores you can't be compared to
                          other archers, you can't be on a champions team, and you can't even move off
                          the toddler's range).

                          You know, I wonder if our new archers wouldn't get so discouraged if they
                          weren't forced to see the incredibly high numbers they have to attain to be
                          competitive? (You might say nobody forces people to see those scores, but that
                          is absolutely false if they are used for everything from champions team
                          placement to even moving to a more distant range - if becoming a marshal
                          includes reporting RR before you are warranted, and if practices are 60%+ RR,
                          how do you expect people to participate unless they are shooting RR (even if
                          they don't particularly want to)). I wonder if they were allowed to see only
                          their own improvement and to feel as good about it as they saw fit, would they
                          be more confident and more comfortable advancing at the best pace for them? If
                          their only competition was from those people they met face-to-face, and these
                          competitions were completed with the example of chivlary and honor, even when
                          it is a novice against a master, and there was always a good word and some
                          encouragement. If a win on the line acutally meant something big, instead of
                          being a second class accomplishment compared to the published RR or IKAC
                          numbers? I wonder if we would lose as many as we do now because of scores
                          frustration?

                          What is wrong with our archers that they can't take a little disappointment
                          without just going off and playing somewhere else. Why do we have to engineer
                          an artificial sense of accomplishment into our basic ranking competitions in
                          order to keep this group? Is not the love of the sport and the challenge of
                          building skill enough? Is not the comaraderie of the line and the real sense
                          of accomplishment of hitting your mark square, along with the chance to gain
                          knowlege of thousands of years, enough?

                          After all, if you hit the red, you have still missed the gold, and that is just
                          as much of a failure as missing a gold sized target with no rings around it. I
                          personally know that if I get something for failing pretty close, I am not as
                          inspired to get better as fast as if I get nothing except when I achieve the
                          objective in a task. Giving courtesy points to those who don't achieve the
                          objective makes the learning curve longer and doesn't promote the level of
                          sportsmanship (IMHO) that real regular successes promote.

                          I know that I have attained a reasonable level of skill, and a real love of the
                          sport that has kept me here through many trials and tribulations to the rank of
                          Laurel without ever shooting a RR and with only shooting a number of IKAC's
                          that I can count on one hand. Hey, I'm not much different than anyone else out
                          there - I don't have some super tenacity or some extraordinary devotion. Sure
                          I am disappointed when I miss, everybody is. But I get over it, and I get
                          better. After all, isn't that what we want to encourage people to do?

                          Kaz
                        • Lorenzo
                          Hi Kaz, I ve been reading your posts, and I confess that I continue not to understand what exactly you are objecting to here. Are you objecting to the fact
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                            Hi Kaz,

                            I've been reading your posts, and I confess that I continue not to understand what
                            exactly you are objecting to here. Are you objecting to the fact that the RR is in
                            fact a non-period intrusion to what should be historical re-enactment? If yes, then
                            the point is valid, but largely irrelevant due to the fact that we allow just about
                            all other non-period contraptions into our archery competitions anyway.

                            If you are objecting to the RR as a valid indicator of skill, then I will
                            disagree. I have been to a lot of events, and in my mind the RR score is a decent
                            indicator of skill. I have met a lot of archers in five different kingdoms now, and
                            in generic terms, the score reflects the level of skill I can expect. I am not
                            saying that there is a tremendous difference between 90 and 110 in terms of general
                            skills, but a good archer will get a good score. I have never seen this happen any
                            other way. Of course, we specialize. Practicing enough to get a very high RR
                            typically may mean neglecting short or varying range practice. Or, a speed demon
                            will get a lot of points in the speed round and not need to be as accurate on the
                            static rounds. However, the bottom line is that it has always been my experience
                            that the RR score is an excellent predictor of the overall skill level of the
                            archer.

                            I don't believe that the scores are artificially high, either. They are achievable
                            by anyone with decent equipment and the time and willingness to practice
                            consistently, and I believe that firmly. Anyone who gets discouraged because they
                            are not at the top right off the bat has a problem anyway, and they are most likely
                            not to advance regardless of the style of competition. Anyone who teaches beginners
                            or intermediate archers, and does not offer congratulations and encouragements for
                            ANY kind of progress is a lousy teacher, in my mind.

                            I would encourage you to be more relaxed about this. The fact that you are one of
                            the very few to achieve a Laurel for archery is a wonderful accomplishment, and I
                            believe you serve as encouragement and inspiration to others that it is well worth
                            to concentrate on the recration and re-enactment aspect of archery. However, the RR
                            can be both fun and effective, and I wouldn't just discount it.

                            Regards,
                            - Lorenzo

                            Chris Nogy wrote:

                            > From: Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                            >
                            > > From: Karl Sandhoff <eulenhorst@...>
                            >
                            > > We shot at progressively
                            > > longer distances based on the archers RR based ranking for the wand and
                            > > the prick.
                            >
                            > So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                            > exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem for
                            > those kingdoms that don't shoot RR) and now it is being used as the designator
                            > to determine which range you can shoot at? Are our marshals working so hard to
                            > artificially inflate the sense of accomplishment that we even declare for
                            > somebody what ranges they shoot from so that they don't have a chance to fail?
                            > I don't mean to be insulting here, but what is this, the Special Olympics?
                            > (Yes, I know. I believe in the Special Olympics program as a way to reach a
                            > very specific group of people with a very good message. But you don't see the
                            > World Olympic Commission adopting those rules for the regular Olympic games,
                            > because we expect the average person in this world to be capable of taking a
                            > little furstration and living through it.)
                            >
                            > I think (no, now I know) that there is just too much emphasis on the RR as the
                            > be-all and end-all of archery (without those scores you can't be compared to
                            > other archers, you can't be on a champions team, and you can't even move off
                            > the toddler's range).
                            >
                            > You know, I wonder if our new archers wouldn't get so discouraged if they
                            > weren't forced to see the incredibly high numbers they have to attain to be
                            > competitive? (You might say nobody forces people to see those scores, but that
                            > is absolutely false if they are used for everything from champions team
                            > placement to even moving to a more distant range - if becoming a marshal
                            > includes reporting RR before you are warranted, and if practices are 60%+ RR,
                            > how do you expect people to participate unless they are shooting RR (even if
                            > they don't particularly want to)). I wonder if they were allowed to see only
                            > their own improvement and to feel as good about it as they saw fit, would they
                            > be more confident and more comfortable advancing at the best pace for them? If
                            > their only competition was from those people they met face-to-face, and these
                            > competitions were completed with the example of chivlary and honor, even when
                            > it is a novice against a master, and there was always a good word and some
                            > encouragement. If a win on the line acutally meant something big, instead of
                            > being a second class accomplishment compared to the published RR or IKAC
                            > numbers? I wonder if we would lose as many as we do now because of scores
                            > frustration?
                            >
                            > What is wrong with our archers that they can't take a little disappointment
                            > without just going off and playing somewhere else. Why do we have to engineer
                            > an artificial sense of accomplishment into our basic ranking competitions in
                            > order to keep this group? Is not the love of the sport and the challenge of
                            > building skill enough? Is not the comaraderie of the line and the real sense
                            > of accomplishment of hitting your mark square, along with the chance to gain
                            > knowlege of thousands of years, enough?
                            >
                            > After all, if you hit the red, you have still missed the gold, and that is just
                            > as much of a failure as missing a gold sized target with no rings around it. I
                            > personally know that if I get something for failing pretty close, I am not as
                            > inspired to get better as fast as if I get nothing except when I achieve the
                            > objective in a task. Giving courtesy points to those who don't achieve the
                            > objective makes the learning curve longer and doesn't promote the level of
                            > sportsmanship (IMHO) that real regular successes promote.
                            >
                            > I know that I have attained a reasonable level of skill, and a real love of the
                            > sport that has kept me here through many trials and tribulations to the rank of
                            > Laurel without ever shooting a RR and with only shooting a number of IKAC's
                            > that I can count on one hand. Hey, I'm not much different than anyone else out
                            > there - I don't have some super tenacity or some extraordinary devotion. Sure
                            > I am disappointed when I miss, everybody is. But I get over it, and I get
                            > better. After all, isn't that what we want to encourage people to do?
                            >
                            > Kaz
                            >
                            > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                            > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
                            > [SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@... to leave this list]
                          • Karl Sandhoff
                            My lord, You may not intend to be insulting, but the tone of your post is. If I had another way of differentiating rank for the archers, I would use it. I
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                              My lord,
                              You may not intend to be insulting, but the tone of your post is. If I
                              had another way of differentiating rank for the archers, I would use it.
                              I have been shooting in the SCA since AS XI. When I started there was a
                              small group of archers with mundane Olympic style experiance. The
                              question wasn't which of these archers would walk away with the awards,
                              but only what order they would finish in. I watched archery in Caid
                              practically disappear due to this lack of competition. The RR was
                              brought in and the ranking system started. The newer and less
                              experienced archers were then competing with others of their skill level
                              and their sense of accomplishment and motivation to move up in ranking
                              improved their skills. Now we have an active and growing program with
                              archers becoming more skilled sooner and extending their learning to the
                              more period aspects. It is well known that the RR is not period and is
                              now shot in the minority of cases. In my last Cantonal championship I had
                              a tie finish between a RoyalBowmaster and a Bowman. I had as many
                              archers on the line as there were heavies in the lists. If I had relied
                              on the system in use prior to the RR ranking system, I would have had 3
                              or 4 archers and the winner could have been predicted before an arrow had
                              been shot. While we use the RR as a cmoponent of a complete system, it
                              is not the entire system nor is it the primary emphasis in that system.
                              You might note the lack of IKAC scores submitted by Caid. If we develop
                              a replacement system for evaluating and ranking archers I will welcome
                              it. It must be easy to administer, easy to learn, quick to setup and
                              break down, and able to be shot on a limited facility. Here in Southern
                              California we are losing are public archery ranges due to the threat of
                              lawsuit arising from the possibliity of an injury at the hands of one of
                              these "deadly weapons". Many cities and now prohibiting the possession
                              of crossbows as a result of just one incident or the threat of a possible
                              incident which has not occured. Archery is under pressure here. We need
                              to do all we can to expand this sport and maintain its good image. If
                              the SCA can do this, so much the better. If we persist in this
                              infighting we will lose it all.

                              To another point. We all know that stainless steel, aluminum, and
                              plastic were not used for period armor and yet we allow it. We know that
                              sewing machines did not exist but we make our garb with them. Gas
                              stoves, temperature controlled ovens, and refrigeration were not
                              available yet we make use of these in preparing and transporting food for
                              our events. We know the difference in all of this and more. we still
                              manage to learn about what the reality of the period was and have peers
                              made based on this knowledge. We can just as easily use modern styles
                              and components in archery and yet learn about the period reality. Many
                              of our archers are dilletants (sp?) and are involved in many other
                              activities as well. If this gives them some feel of archery, so much the
                              better. I get the impression that many of the people complaining are
                              archers to the exclusion of all else. So much the better for them. I've
                              watched the participation in this kingdom drop over the last five years
                              due to infighting such as this in many other activities. We now have
                              fewer that 1/2 the people playing than we had five years ago and are
                              steadily losing our veteran members to have them replaced by newcomers
                              with no knowledge of the reality of history. Enough of the "One True
                              Way" arguments already. Its counterproductive. I'm tired of watching
                              people get insulted on this list because they expressed an opinion. If
                              we can't start from where we are now and continue to get better without
                              knocking each other down, we will all lose.

                              I learn a great deal about historic archery on this list and am able to
                              pass much of this along to other archers. If I am forced to wade through
                              much more of this innuendo and backbiting I will have to leave and lose a
                              terrific resource which had led to much enrichment of periodness here. I
                              have seen many others leave this list and I suspect it is for similar
                              reasons. This will be a great loss and, I suspect, will lead to the
                              further development of inaccurate practices.
                              In service to the dream,
                              Carolus von Eulenhorst

                              On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:41:45 -0800 Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                              writes:
                              >From: Chris Nogy <cnogy@...>
                              >
                              >> From: Karl Sandhoff <eulenhorst@...>
                              >
                              >> We shot at progressively
                              >> longer distances based on the archers RR based ranking for the wand
                              >and
                              >> the prick.
                              >
                              >
                              >So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                              >exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real
                              >problem for
                              >those kingdoms that don't shoot RR) and now it is being used as the
                              >designator
                              >to determine which range you can shoot at? Are our marshals working
                              >so hard to
                              >artificially inflate the sense of accomplishment that we even declare
                              >for
                              >somebody what ranges they shoot from so that they don't have a chance
                              >to fail?
                              >I don't mean to be insulting here, but what is this, the Special
                              >Olympics?
                              >(Yes, I know. I believe in the Special Olympics program as a way to
                              >reach a
                              >very specific group of people with a very good message. But you don't
                              >see the
                              >World Olympic Commission adopting those rules for the regular Olympic
                              >games,
                              >because we expect the average person in this world to be capable of
                              >taking a
                              >little furstration and living through it.)
                              >
                              >I think (no, now I know) that there is just too much emphasis on the
                              >RR as the
                              >be-all and end-all of archery (without those scores you can't be
                              >compared to
                              >other archers, you can't be on a champions team, and you can't even
                              >move off
                              >the toddler's range).
                              >
                              >You know, I wonder if our new archers wouldn't get so discouraged if
                              >they
                              >weren't forced to see the incredibly high numbers they have to attain
                              >to be
                              >competitive? (You might say nobody forces people to see those scores,
                              >but that
                              >is absolutely false if they are used for everything from champions
                              >team
                              >placement to even moving to a more distant range - if becoming a
                              >marshal
                              >includes reporting RR before you are warranted, and if practices are
                              >60%+ RR,
                              >how do you expect people to participate unless they are shooting RR
                              >(even if
                              >they don't particularly want to)). I wonder if they were allowed to
                              >see only
                              >their own improvement and to feel as good about it as they saw fit,
                              >would they
                              >be more confident and more comfortable advancing at the best pace for
                              >them? If
                              >their only competition was from those people they met face-to-face,
                              >and these
                              >competitions were completed with the example of chivlary and honor,
                              >even when
                              >it is a novice against a master, and there was always a good word and
                              >some
                              >encouragement. If a win on the line acutally meant something big,
                              >instead of
                              >being a second class accomplishment compared to the published RR or
                              >IKAC
                              >numbers? I wonder if we would lose as many as we do now because of
                              >scores
                              >frustration?
                              >
                              >What is wrong with our archers that they can't take a little
                              >disappointment
                              >without just going off and playing somewhere else. Why do we have to
                              >engineer
                              >an artificial sense of accomplishment into our basic ranking
                              >competitions in
                              >order to keep this group? Is not the love of the sport and the
                              >challenge of
                              >building skill enough? Is not the comaraderie of the line and the
                              >real sense
                              >of accomplishment of hitting your mark square, along with the chance
                              >to gain
                              >knowlege of thousands of years, enough?
                              >
                              >After all, if you hit the red, you have still missed the gold, and
                              >that is just
                              >as much of a failure as missing a gold sized target with no rings
                              >around it. I
                              >personally know that if I get something for failing pretty close, I am
                              >not as
                              >inspired to get better as fast as if I get nothing except when I
                              >achieve the
                              >objective in a task. Giving courtesy points to those who don't
                              >achieve the
                              >objective makes the learning curve longer and doesn't promote the
                              >level of
                              >sportsmanship (IMHO) that real regular successes promote.
                              >
                              >I know that I have attained a reasonable level of skill, and a real
                              >love of the
                              >sport that has kept me here through many trials and tribulations to
                              >the rank of
                              >Laurel without ever shooting a RR and with only shooting a number of
                              >IKAC's
                              >that I can count on one hand. Hey, I'm not much different than anyone
                              >else out
                              >there - I don't have some super tenacity or some extraordinary
                              >devotion. Sure
                              >I am disappointed when I miss, everybody is. But I get over it, and I
                              >get
                              >better. After all, isn't that what we want to encourage people to do?
                              >
                              >
                              >Kaz
                              >
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                            • brett l wilson
                              Lorenzo, I believe that Master Kaz was given his Laurel for crossbow construction and reserch in archery. I thought that by the way he stated how he got his
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                                Lorenzo,

                                I believe that Master Kaz was given his Laurel for crossbow construction
                                and reserch in archery. I thought that by the way he stated how he got
                                his Laurel,some people on the list might have misinterpreted this.

                                LoCM

                                . The fact that you are one of the very few to achieve a Laurel for
                                archery is a wonderful
                                >accomplishment, and I
                                >believe you serve as encouragement and inspiration to others that it
                                >is well worth
                                >to concentrate on the recration and re-enactment aspect of archery.


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                              • Bob & Nancy Upson
                                ... FWIW, Pennsic, at least, seems to have avoided this problem. Macsen
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                                  > So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                                  > exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem for

                                  FWIW, Pennsic, at least, seems to have avoided this problem.

                                  Macsen
                                • Chris Nogy
                                  Please, for all those who might be confused, I do not mean to mislead. I believe that I have stated this fact in dozens of other posts as my crediential,
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                                    Please, for all those who might be confused, I do not mean to mislead. I
                                    believe that I have stated this fact in dozens of other posts as my
                                    crediential, especially when folks have asked for them.

                                    The Laurel, as given on the scroll and as stated many times on this list, is
                                    for the 'research, construction, and use' of period archery equipment. It was
                                    meant to be an indication that the Crown and the order wanted to recognize a
                                    well-rounded individual that promoted all the aspects of period archery.

                                    So no, I am not specifically a shooting Laurel. Calontir has only one of those
                                    (made for the 'Performance Art of Archery', if I recall the ceremony
                                    correctly), and I always acknowlege his shooting ability as better than mine,
                                    because it is. That is Master Lief of Crescent Moon - LoCM.

                                    Kaz

                                    Or at least that is what they told me.
                                    > From: brett l wilson <locm@...>, on 11/8/99 6:28 PM:
                                    > From: brett l wilson <locm@...>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Lorenzo,
                                    >
                                    > I believe that Master Kaz was given his Laurel for crossbow construction
                                    > and reserch in archery. I thought that by the way he stated how he got
                                    > his Laurel,some people on the list might have misinterpreted this.
                                    >
                                    > LoCM
                                    >
                                    > . The fact that you are one of the very few to achieve a Laurel for
                                    > archery is a wonderful
                                    > >accomplishment, and I
                                    > >believe you serve as encouragement and inspiration to others that it
                                    > >is well worth
                                    > >to concentrate on the recration and re-enactment aspect of archery.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ___________________________________________________________________
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                                    >
                                    > > This list sponsored by House Wyvern Hall
                                    > of Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • jotl@xxxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
                                    ... And at Estrella, the archers simply shoot a qualifying round. So one need not have a prior RR average. This is for the Knowne World Archery
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 8, 1999
                                      At 6:35 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Bob & Nancy Upson wrote:
                                      >From: "Bob & Nancy Upson" <wyvern@...>
                                      >
                                      >> So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                                      >> exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem
                                      >>for
                                      >
                                      >FWIW, Pennsic, at least, seems to have avoided this problem.
                                      >
                                      >Macsen
                                      >

                                      And at Estrella, the archers simply shoot a qualifying round. So one need
                                      not have a prior RR average. This is for the "Knowne World Archery
                                      Championship"; the war point is based on a series of novelty shoots.

                                      (If one does not want to shoot the Knowne World shoot, then don't. Shoot
                                      the many other rounds instead.)

                                      James
                                      jotl@...
                                    • Hugh Prescott
                                      In a message Dateed: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:35:17 -0500 Macsen replied ... FWIW, Pennsic, at least, seems to have avoided this problem. Macsen Sorry to say that at
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 9, 1999
                                        In a message Dateed: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:35:17 -0500
                                        Macsen replied

                                        > So, besides using the RR to provide rank among archers, it is almost
                                        > exclusively used to determine champions for the major wars (a real problem for

                                        FWIW, Pennsic, at least, seems to have avoided this problem.

                                        Macsen

                                        Sorry to say that at the last Pennsic the first thing Lynette and I were asked was "What are your RR scores"? This was for the Archery Champions shoot on Wednesday.

                                        Not suprising since the Middle relies on the Royal Round scores a great deal.

                                        Archers that did not have RR scores had to qualify Tuesday evening.

                                        Hugh Prescott
                                        Calontir Archer Huscarl
                                      • Bob & Nancy Upson
                                        ... There s that term again... For concensus, what does the rest of the world consider a novelty shoot to be? Secondly, what are the actual war point shoots
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 9, 1999
                                          > Championship"; the war point is based on a series of novelty shoots.

                                          There's that term again...

                                          For concensus, what does the rest of the world consider a "novelty
                                          shoot" to be? Secondly, what are the actual war point shoots at
                                          Estrella?

                                          Macsen
                                        • Bob & Nancy Upson
                                          ... *sigh* I *knew* that there were good reasons why I don t lose too much sleep over losing Midrealm Wars... The Mid s War philosophy and mine just tend not
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 9, 1999
                                            > Sorry to say that at the last Pennsic the first thing Lynette
                                            > and I were asked was "What are your RR scores"? This was for
                                            > the Archery Champions shoot on Wednesday.
                                            >
                                            > Not suprising since the Middle relies on the Royal Round scores a great deal.

                                            *sigh* I *knew* that there were good reasons why I don't lose too
                                            much sleep over losing Midrealm Wars... The Mid's War
                                            philosophy and mine just tend not to gell. =(

                                            The day the East asks that question at War is the day I drop out of
                                            SCA Archery altogether.

                                            Macsen
                                          • psobaka@xxxx.xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
                                            ... I would call a Willam Tell, an archer duel where you shoot at silhouettes (you can kill yourself), smallest group novelty shoots. Plachoya Sobaka a humble
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 9, 1999
                                              >
                                              >For concensus, what does the rest of the world consider a "novelty
                                              >shoot" to be? Secondly, what are the actual war point shoots at
                                              >Estrella?
                                              >
                                              >Macsen
                                              >
                                              I would call a Willam Tell, an archer duel where you shoot at silhouettes
                                              (you can kill yourself), smallest group novelty shoots.
                                              Plachoya Sobaka a humble archer in Ravens Fort, Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                              Southern Reagional Archery Marshal
                                            • D Humberson
                                              ... As used out here in the wilds of Aethelmearc, it generally means anything other than Royal Rounds, although some folks make a distinction between roving
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 9, 1999
                                                >There's that term again...
                                                >
                                                >For concensus, what does the rest of the world consider a "novelty
                                                >shoot" to be? Secondly, what are the actual war point shoots at
                                                >Estrella?
                                                >
                                                >Macsen

                                                As used out here in the wilds of Aethelmearc, it generally means anything
                                                other than Royal Rounds, although some folks make a distinction between
                                                roving ranges and novelty shoots, where the latter are open field shoots at
                                                unknown distances.

                                                Ragnar Ketilsson
                                              • Bob & Nancy Upson
                                                ... The selection process starts by observing the phase of the moon and then proceeds to goat entrails... ;) There s no set process that I m aware of -- it
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 18, 1999
                                                  > What criteria does the East Kingdom use in selecting it's champions and
                                                  > allies?

                                                  The selection process starts by observing the phase of the moon
                                                  and then proceeds to goat entrails... ;)

                                                  There's no set process that I'm aware of -- it seems to vary from
                                                  season to season. Some pretty stable factors include things like:
                                                  making the final cut in K&Q's Champion's Tourney (a Sure
                                                  Thing(tm), being among the usual suspects (i.e. the established
                                                  bow-god elite), and/or having made a good showing and being seen
                                                  doing it over the course of the season in general. FWIW, I've
                                                  people who happened to be ranked as Master Bowmen to be
                                                  picked over Grand Masters on occasion simply because people
                                                  know that RRs don't necessarily select all that well for tourney
                                                  competitors.

                                                  I'd make an educated guess that the Captain-General probably
                                                  knows who at *least* two thirds of the team will be well before War
                                                  with the balance being selected by watching to see who is "in the
                                                  zone" that week.

                                                  Of course, depending on who's on the throne, there are
                                                  occasionally political appointments of archers who may or may not
                                                  be of the highest caliber...*grumble* (Yes, this is a personal
                                                  peeve. The first year I was *almost* on the team my spot was filled
                                                  by an out-kingdom baroness who couldn't hit the broad side of a
                                                  barn...) Exclusionary rules also come and go like one year's, "If
                                                  you don't shoot at K&Q's, you can't be on the team."

                                                  In short, it's a crap shoot, but it seems to work pretty well. =)

                                                  Macsen
                                                • Gary Hecathorn
                                                  ... What criteria does the East Kingdom use in selecting it s champions and allies? Gareth Thorne
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 19, 1999
                                                    >> and I were asked was "What are your RR scores"? This was for
                                                    >> the Archery Champions shoot on Wednesday.
                                                    >The day the East asks that question at War is the day I drop out of
                                                    >SCA Archery altogether.
                                                    >
                                                    >Macsen

                                                    What criteria does the East Kingdom use in selecting it's champions and
                                                    allies?

                                                    Gareth Thorne

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