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22009Crossbows - was: Re: [SCA-Archery] Re: Royal Round Rankings

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  • Ko
    Jan 5, 2007
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      What about greg? he puts out like 10-12 arrows with his crossbow
      during a timed 30 sec shoot. I can only put out between 7-8 arrows
      with my current recurve, was 8-10 before with a lighter recurve.

      My point is the crossbow guy can load and shoot fast too, So wouldn't
      that completely throw things off?

      How do you compete against that?

      -Donal Maclauren

      --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried Sebastian Faust
      <crossbow@...> wrote:
      > > As for crossbows, I couldn't agree with you more. I really
      think they
      > >are a separate category of shooting.
      > I may 'slightly' disagree, but that's ok :)
      > > Having shot rifles in mundane life,
      > >I know that shooting from a sitting position is inherently more
      stable than
      > >from a standing position. Most crossbow archers I have ever seen
      > >on the firing line, lay their bolts near at hand on the ground,
      and are fairly
      > >accurate once they have sighted in during early practice rounds.
      > And this is why some of us Crossbowmen, have chosen to always shoot
      > standing (unless the shot calls for otherwise). In my mind, if I
      > myself as a period target crossbowman (quite period for myself in
      the 16th
      > century), I can't find any documentation of these target shoots
      being done
      > with the archers sitting. Bench shooting, yes, you can find that.
      > that is a completely different story from archers walking around
      with a
      > piece of leather to place on the ground to sit on, and flopping
      > down.
      > If I consider myself as practicing for combat. Same problems,
      > behind a pavise, sure. So a kneeling crossbowman I don't have a
      > with. But I just can't see a crossbowman running up in the field
      > battle, dropping to the field and then shooting.
      > Either way, I don't see the medieval crossbowman sitting on the
      > ground. And so I don't.
      > > All that being said, in tournaments if there are some unmarked
      > > distances and timed rounds as well as some longer distance
      shoots, it can
      > > be balanced out
      > >to make it a chalenging competition!!
      > Well said.
      > As a crossbowman, when I often hear of people complaining about
      > and how they are unbalancing at an event ... they never stop to
      look at the
      > shoot.
      > Shoots can be well designed to be a balanced competition for all
      > but they quite often aren't. People designing the shoots think
      about what
      > would be cool, and stop there, not thinking about balancing them
      > Usually these shoots where the crossbows overpower the bows, are
      ones with
      > known distances, no speed rounds, many shots per target, etc.
      > Most likely someone made a couple of cardboard targets, set them
      out, and
      > said for everyone to take 6 shots at each untimed. This is the
      > crossbowman's dream. AS WELL AS anyone who is an accurate, but
      slow, shooter.
      > Some more thought needs put into balancing the overall
      competition. Have a
      > good mix of speed & untimed rounds. Unmarked distances. Odd
      > conditions. Movement of the archer (a 'running' shoot), etc.
      > zones. One/two shot targets, etc.
      > Looking into these ideas and thinking about balancing your shoot
      > the faster less accurate archers, and the slower more accurate
      archers, and
      > you will find a good competition with the bows & crossbows running
      > Conversely, I have been to competitions, that as a crossbowman,
      > IMPOSSIBLE for me to win.
      > One example was an event I went to, a large roving range, with,
      let's say,
      > 10 targets. Every single target was a single arrow, with just a 1-
      > for a hit. EXCEPT for one. Ok, so right now you have a 9-point
      total match.
      > The 'last' target, was a speed round, against multiple targets, on
      > one of the targets had multiple hits possible, and that target had
      > 2-point (large) kill zone. But you had to hit these two other
      > first. (Standard hunter & his dogs idea) Well, being a standing
      > crossbowman, I can get 5-6 shots off in 30 seconds. With multiple
      > make that only 5. So at most, I could get 8 points here. giving
      me a
      > maximum for the course, of 17 points. However, the bowmen there
      who could
      > shoot 10-12 arrows in 30 seconds, could get a maximum of 18-22
      points on
      > that one shoot alone. Meaning that they could have skipped the
      whole rest
      > of the shoot, showed up only at that one target, and outshoot me
      for the
      > whole competition *grin*
      > Anyway, the point is, that shoots can be unbalanced in either
      > and unfortuantely, the 'standard shoots' tend to be a bit
      unbalanced in the
      > direction of the crossbow.
      > >Crossbow Royal Round, essentially the only difference would be to
      > >have everyone shoot from a standing postion (kneeling behind a
      > >on the battlefield was also period for crossbows) and adjust
      > >for the difference in a crossbows rate of fire for a 30-second
      > Well, a number of people & myself have discussed the RR as it
      stands, and
      > have decided (open to debate here), that the RR IS balanced, at
      the '100'
      > mark. That is to say, once you start hitting around a score of
      100, the
      > bowman and crossbowman, are at similar levels of practice, skill,
      > effort. Because the speed portion of the competition really starts
      > become important at these higher scores.
      > At the lower score levels, the crossbowman jumps up the rank
      > quicker. Because of the reliance of short range, untimed accuracy
      at known
      > distances. All things in the crossbowmans favor.
      > The idea had been tossed around, of a modifed ranking system, to
      > things equal perhaps. Currently, in Atlantia, we have:
      > 40 - Marksman
      > 60 - Bowman
      > 80 - Bowman Elite
      > 100 - Grand Bowman Elite
      > The idea to 'balance' the crossbows, would be to have 15point steps
      > them, starting down from 100:
      > 55 - Marksman
      > 70 - Bowman
      > 85 - Bowman Elite
      > 100 - Grand Bowman Elite
      > With the idea again being that things are already balanced at the
      > mark. But that this raises the 'entry level' bar for the
      > Siegfried
      > THL Siegfried Sebastian Faust Baronial Web Minister & Archery
      > Barony of Highland Foorde http://highland-
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