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16064Re: [SCA-Archery] Re:Alestra 20lb and 20 yarder

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  • Nest verch Tangwistel
    Sep 5 5:49 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Actually, I think it was me, Nest, who was talking about hitting the
      ceiling while shooting a 20 pound bow. That was at 40 yards, not 20. We
      don't have any problems with hitting the wall at 20 yards. We shoot in an
      old mill which has high ceilings anyway, but by the time you get back to
      40 yards it does get hard. We are lucky to have an inside range with the
      capacity to shoot 40 yards. I will admit the arrows are over-shafted for
      the bows. I don't make arrows specifically for the loaner bows. I don't
      own the bows. The shop is nice enough to let us use them for free, but I
      am not going to make arrows for them. The arrows are all donated
      left-overs from all my usual shooters. If they get or make a set of arrows
      they don't like for whatever reason they donate them to the loaner pile.
      that way we have lots for the newbies to break, but most everyone has
      heavier bows than the loaners. So we end up with arrows that are too
      heavy, but I am not going to complain. I am so glad they are all willing
      to help out.

      Nest
      --- Gary Shurgin <TSHURGIN@...> wrote:

      >
      > Dear Alestra,
      >
      > I also use a 20# bow. The arc is only slightly higher than I am, so it
      > should have an arc of about 7 feet. Most indoor ranges have a 10ft.
      > ceiling,
      > and the arrows haven't been near that. Try going down to a 5/16 width,
      > or if
      > you can find them 1/4" arrows, and the trajectory might be less than you
      > are
      > saying, make sure the spine on your arrows are for a 20# bow also. It
      > almost
      > sounds like you're shooting too heavy an arrow.
      >
      > Roewynne
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 4:32 PM
      > Subject: [SCA-Archery] Digest Number 1726
      >
      >
      > There are 6 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. RE: A question of releases.
      > From: "Tessa the Huntress" <tessathehuntress@...>
      > 2. Handicapped release aids
      > From: Ragnar Ketilsson <ragnarketilsson@...>
      > 3. Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      > From: Mike Hornbaker <mvb2@...>
      > 4. Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      > From: "Brad Boda d'Aylward" <bradb@...>
      > 5. Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      > From: Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...>
      > 6. Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      > From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:54:38 -0400
      > From: "Tessa the Huntress" <tessathehuntress@...>
      > Subject: RE: A question of releases.
      >
      > I'm sorry I can't help much with this, but an old friends of mine, Angus
      > Half-hand I believe had a similar situation. This was back when I tried
      > to
      > get everyone to do combat archery. I used a bow, not a crossbow. When
      > he
      > said he wanted to try it I handed my bow to him and only then realized
      > that
      > he didn't have two whole hands. I was at a loss, since I didn't know
      > what
      > or how he could shoot.
      >
      > Luckily, he had no hestitation.. and whipped out a leather lacing and
      > laced
      > his hand to the bow. This was at least 10 years ago, but I know he's
      > still
      > playing and I believe he did and perhaps still does some target archery,
      > so
      > maybe someone in Atlantia can give a better description or more detail
      > of
      > how he shoots with a bow.
      >
      > Perhaps, learning to shoot with his off-hand, tying his other hand to
      > the
      > bow (if need be) could work for him. Or.. perhaps he can use arrows
      > with a
      > snap nock.. and one of those arrow release cords. it's the loop that is
      > attached to the bow string, rather than hold onto the arrow or the
      > string,
      > you pull that cord (usually by putting a finger/fingers in the loop).
      >
      > I'm not certain what you call it.. if that's not the correct term, let
      > me
      > know and I'll look it up. I know of several archers who have made a
      > modified version of it with their combat bow & arrows, since they
      > couldn't
      > do a good draw in their full gauntlets. They do well with it. I
      > believe it
      > has to be done with a snap nock, otherwise the arrow will fall off of
      > the
      > string when you go to pull back the cord.
      >
      > Just two ideas that will hopefully give you a place to start.
      >
      > Tessa the Huntress
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Heya
      >
      > I have an odd request, I have a freind who wishes to get into archery,
      > primarily sca archery and I
      > wish to save him from the evils of a crossbow.
      >
      > The problem is he has had a nasty altercation with a hydralic press and
      > has
      > lost various parts and
      > peices of his string fingers and cannot draw the bow the way we normally
      > do.
      > A thumb ring is not
      > what he wants to use either.
      >
      > I found a wooden release called a bow lock that he could use and since
      > it is
      > wood with no moving
      > parts I do not think the sca marshalls will have too much of a problem
      > with
      > it.
      >
      > Is anyone familiar with the idea and could he get away with it on the
      > line?
      >
      > Herre Ragi "warm Bear" Wul´┐Żarsson of the Barony, Isle du Dragon Dormant.
      > (Sometimes known as RJ Bachner)
      >
      > Northern shores, East Kingdom SCA.
      > ragi@...
      >
      > Come visit the Archery diy Pages @
      > www.diy.brokenaxe.ca
      > and the shoppe @
      > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
      >
      > House of the broken axe.
      > www.brokenaxe.ca
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:22:47 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Ragnar Ketilsson <ragnarketilsson@...>
      > Subject: Handicapped release aids
      >
      > I've had archers who needed a mouth tab on their
      > bowstrings, and others who needed to shoot a crossbow
      > someone else cocked to shoot at all( interesting bow,
      > BTW, a bolt shooter shaped like a stonebow, with a
      > loop served into the string which fitted over a
      > one-finger nut. Only crossbows I've seen that used
      > speed nocked bolts.)
      >
      > Another release your friend might try is a simple .5"
      > web strap with a wrist loop on one end and the other
      > end turned over and stitched double. it wraps around
      > the string under the arrow, is held closed with a
      > pinch grip by the thumb, and draws using the back
      > muscles. What might make it work for your friend is
      > that the drawing stress transfers from string to
      > wrist, keeping damaged hands out of harm's way.
      >
      > Hope this helps,
      > Ragnar Ketilsson
      > --- SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      > > There are 4 messages in this issue.
      > >
      > > Topics in this digest:
      > >
      > > 1. Re: Seeking advice
      > > From: Carolus Eulenhorst
      > > <eulenhorst@...>
      > > 2. Re: Leather source
      > > From: Bjorn Gunnbjornsen
      > > <bjorngunnbjornsen@...>
      > > 3. A question of releases.
      > > From: RJ Bachner
      > > <ragiwarmbear@...>
      > > 4. Re: A question of releases.
      > > From: "jameswolfden"
      > > <jameswolfden@...>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 1
      > > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:12:33 -0700
      > > From: Carolus Eulenhorst <eulenhorst@...>
      > > Subject: Re: Seeking advice
      > >
      > > Indeed. Until you wrote that I didn't realize I was
      > > doing just that for
      > > 40 years.
      > > Carolus
      > >
      > > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:01:28 -0400 "Bruce R. Gordon"
      > > <obsidian@...>
      > > writes:
      > > > Greetings
      > > > Sure, help yourself. Just remember to include
      > > the revision I
      > > > wrote
      > > > a few minutes ago when I realized that my original
      > > description was
      > > > from
      > > > a left-hand point of view, and needed to be
      > > rephrased accordingly.
      > > >
      > > > Nigel
      > > >
      > > > > Best description I have read on draw technique,
      > > Nigel. May I snag
      > > > it
      > > > for
      > > > > a summary page I am developing for Caid's web
      > > site?
      > > > > Carolus
      > > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Three things never heard from the mouth of a Celt:
      > > > "Do these colors match?"
      > > > "Is this too much jewelry?"
      > > > "Is that my drink?"
      > > >
      > > > http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/index.html
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---8<---------------------------------------------
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      > > http://www.medievalmart.com/
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      > > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > to leave this
      > > > list]
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________
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      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 2
      > > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:41:24 -0700 (PDT)
      > > From: Bjorn Gunnbjornsen
      > > <bjorngunnbjornsen@...>
      > > Subject: Re: Leather source
      > >
      > > Check out any local upholstry shops and ask for
      > > scraps if your not picky. You might also want to
      > > check in with even the aircraft upholstry places.
      > >
      > > Sherry Bishop <celticarchr1@...> wrote:
      > > Greetings all,
      > >
      > > Anyone know of any good quality leather sources that
      > > sell leather in small amounts?
      > > I'm thinking of starting to make my own equipment
      > > (arm
      > > guard, back quiver), and I'd rather not have to
      > > purchase an entire side of an animal for my projects
      > > :)Thanks!
      > >
      > > Seonaid MacPhie aka Shea
      > > Barony of Smoking Rocks/Dragon's Heorth
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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      > >
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      > > http://www.medievalmart.com/
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      > > [Email to SCA-Archery-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com to
      > > leave this list]
      > >
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      > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > >
      > > Message: 3
      > > Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:14:02 -0400
      > > From: RJ Bachner <ragiwarmbear@...>
      > > Subject: A question of releases.
      > >
      > > Heya
      > >
      > > I have an odd request, I have a freind who wishes to
      > > get into archery, primarily sca archery and I
      > > wish to save him from the evils of a crossbow.
      > >
      > > The problem is he has had a nasty altercation with a
      > > hydralic press and has lost various parts and
      > > peices of his string fingers and cannot draw the bow
      > > the way we normally do. A thumb ring is not
      > > what he wants to use either.
      > >
      > > I found a wooden release called a bow lock that he
      > > could use and since it is wood with no moving
      > > parts I do not think the sca marshalls will have too
      > > much of a problem with it.
      > >
      > > Is anyone familiar with the idea and could he get
      > > away with it on the line?
      > >
      > > Herre Ragi "warm Bear" Wul´┐Żarsson of the Barony,
      > > Isle du Dragon Dormant.
      > > (Sometimes known as RJ Bachner)
      > >
      > > Northern shores, East Kingdom SCA.
      > > ragi@...
      > >
      > > Come visit the Archery diy Pages @
      > > www.diy.brokenaxe.ca
      > > and the shoppe @
      > > www.shoppe.brokenaxe.ca
      > >
      > > House of the broken axe.
      > > www.brokenaxe.ca
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > === message truncated ===
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:46:45 -0500
      > From: Mike Hornbaker <mvb2@...>
      > Subject: Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      >
      > I might suggest there is a 4th method of release. I learned this when
      > learning the longbow, read in a book, and also found corroboration in
      > the Toxophilius. Once at your anchor point, yourelax the fingers just
      > ENOUGH so that the pressure on the string bumps the fingers out of its
      > way at the same time the hand goes back a little farther along the same
      > line. That extra motion is about 1/2 inch of necessary motion for the
      > fingers and string to clear each other. No creeping forward, no
      > exploding
      > fingers away from the string, just a clean sharp release. The way I know
      > I have done this correctly is that my fingers never completely lose
      > contact with my cheek, just lose a bit of pressure as i go back from the
      > anchor point. I call this "stroking the cheek."
      >
      > The words, in general , From the Toxophilius are that a person watching
      > the release sees very little and the archer feels next to nothing. This
      > fits well with the fingers going backward at the same time the string
      > goes forward in a combined distance of 1/2 inch.
      >
      > If your ability to aim is done well, adding the above to it will jump
      > your scores and efficiency.
      >
      > Michael vanBergen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:47:05 -0400 "Russ Sheldon" <sheldon@...>
      > writes:
      > > Greetings,
      > > A couple of things to remember.
      > > 1) Without some kind of trigger release ( ie using just your hand )
      > > everyone
      > > will pluck the string sometime. Even the best archer. Period.
      > > 2) There are more than one release method , static, active and what
      > > I call
      > > open release. All have there pro's and con's and none of them are
      > > the be all
      > > and end all of shooting. Use the one your most comfortable with.
      > > Static is where you anchor your hand and just release your
      > > fingers.
      > > I find that errors in your release using a static release can be
      > > magnified
      > > by a lighter poundage bow. Also hard to get a nice fast release with
      > > the
      > > string without a lot of practice. If you master this release though
      > > you will
      > > get very good scores for all ranges of archery.
      > > Active release requires you to anchor your hand and then
      > > pull and
      > > release the string. I find that you get faster release with the
      > > string but
      > > it is hard to get a consistent speed with the release for longer
      > > yardage
      > > shots. Also easier to pluck using this method.
      > > Open release ( may have other names ) has your hand follow
      > > the
      > > release of the string for a few inches. Very hard to do right unless
      > > your
      > > using really high poundage bows. Your hand just gets in the way and
      > > slows
      > > down the release.
      > > 3) Be it a glove, finger tab, or just your fingers all must be
      > > inspected to
      > > help better your release. A beat up grubby glove or finger tab can
      > > cause
      > > your string to hang or not roll right on your release. These need to
      > > be
      > > replaced when they begin to get worn. Trouble is they always seem to
      > > die
      > > just as they get broken in just right. Sigh! As for your fingers,
      > > calluses
      > > that will form may help protect your fingers from blisters but they
      > > may also
      > > cause areas on your fingers to catch the string. You may have to
      > > smooth or
      > > scrape these down periodically.
      > > 4) Do not expect to be shooting consistently for at least 4 to 6
      > > months with
      > > regular practice, some people are faster. Your muscles need to
      > > develop a
      > > memory and I usually find that it takes some people that long for
      > > everything
      > > to click. On a 60cm target I usually tell my students to be quite
      > > happy to
      > > get all there arrows on the paper first. Also its better to get a
      > > nice tight
      > > grouping even off the page consistently than have your arrows
      > > looking like
      > > they were shot all over the place with a few in well scoring
      > > locations on
      > > the target. The person with the tight group can eventually be taught
      > > to
      > > change his aiming point and move the group onto the target thus
      > > netting
      > > him/her a very nice score.
      > >
      > > Lastly remember in all of this to Have fun.
      > >
      > > Hope this helps.
      > >
      > > Russ Sheldon / Dafydd ap Sion
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Sharon Macielinski" <ariel_elronds_daughter@...>
      > > To: <SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:50 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for the info! Maybe I just hadn't been taught
      > > > this type of release yet? I will have to ask... I was
      > > > so happy that I stopped plucking! When I stopped
      > > > plucking I was able to get so much more accurate at
      > > > 10-20 yard ranges. I anchor my middle finger in
      > > > corner of mouth just behind canine tooth and my thumb
      > > > stays under my chin to keep my hand still on
      > > > release... but I have been holding that too long--easy
      > > > to do if your bow is a light poundage :) I have been
      > > > told that the release is a relaxing of the fingers, so
      > > > you don't pluck!
      > > >
      > > > I will try a faster release this afternoon, although I
      > > > can only shoot at a 10-15 yard distance here... I
      > > > should be able to tell if the arrows are flying faster
      > > > though by how far they get stuck in the target! :)
      > > >
      > > > Thanks again... I like the baby powder cornstarch idea
      > > > too.
      > > >
      > > > Cheers,
      > > > Alestra
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're
      > > > > stuck with the 20/30/40
      > > > > > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh
      > > > > well!
      > > > >
      > > > > Why don't the timed ends make sense?
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Alrighty guys... I need advice again... my
      > > > > instructor is trying to tell
      > > > > > me that my 26 lb pull on my 30-35lb longbow should
      > > > > have no problems
      > > > > > hitting 30 and 40 yard targets. I have been
      > > > > fussing because I wanted a
      > > > > > heavier bow and am frustrated trying to figure out
      > > > > the "arc" thing in
      > > > > > order to hit the target accurately.
      > > > >
      > > > > The loaner equipment I use is between 17 and 25
      > > > > pounds. The only problem I
      > > > > have seen is with the really light bows. The arrow
      > > > > hits the ceiling in out
      > > > > indoor range before you can get enough arc in the
      > > > > trajectory to reach the
      > > > > target. But my daughter shot the 100 yard clout with
      > > > > a 20 pound bow at
      > > > > Pennsic one year. She got all the arrows wither in
      > > > > the clout or the front
      > > > > wall. so it can be done.
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > My form and anchor points are just fine, so my
      > > > > difficulty is figuring
      > > > > > out how far above the target to aim... even with a
      > > > > good anchor
      > > > > > point/release I get random arrow speeds!! ANY
      > > > > HINTS?
      > > > > >
      > > > > I have to agree with others one this one. It sounds
      > > > > like you are loosing
      > > > > critical energy in some of your shots by collapsing.
      > > > > A good follow through
      > > > > may be the answer to your problems. It was taught to
      > > > > me that you should
      > > > > never completely come to a halt when getting to your
      > > > > anchor point. Go back
      > > > > to the anchor fairly quickly, then slowly continue
      > > > > pulling until you are
      > > > > ready to execute the shot. That way your arrow hand
      > > > > should continue moving
      > > > > back towards your shoulder after you have released.
      > > > > If your hand sometimes
      > > > > moves back towards the bow as you release you loose
      > > > > a great deal of speed.
      > > > >
      > > > > > Also, I don't believe that I would have no
      > > > > advantage with a higher
      > > > > > poundage bow. Isn't an arrow that flies straight
      > > > > more
      > > > > > accurate/consistent than one that has to arc to
      > > > > hit a target? It's like
      > > > > > a crossbow would have no advantage! Hmmmmm....
      > > > >
      > > > > The flatter trajectory of a higher pound bow does
      > > > > help with shooting at
      > > > > unknown distances. The difference between elevation
      > > > > at fairly similar
      > > > > distances is less, so you don't have to be perfect
      > > > > on your distance
      > > > > estimation. Even more so with a crossbow. However, I
      > > > > echo the worry about
      > > > > going to strong before getting your form down pat.
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks as always for all the great advice!
      > > > > > Alestra
      > > > >
      > > > > Good luck and keep on shooting.
      > > > >
      > > > > Nest
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > _______________________________
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      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:56:07 -0400
      > From: "Brad Boda d'Aylward" <bradb@...>
      > Subject: Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      >
      > Random arrow speeds???
      >
      > Something few people consider. Are you using 'snap' nocks or 'speed'
      > nocks??
      >
      > Snap nocks need pressure to push the back of the arrow onto the string
      > with
      > a slight click. Unless these particular type of nocks have been filed to
      > grasp the string with the exact same pressure, one arrow will fly freely
      > while the next will experience a 'braking' effect as the snap nock hangs
      > on
      > to the string a second longer than the others.
      >
      > I always suggest speed nocks (there's another name for them) as they
      > will be
      > more consistant in the point which they allow the arrow to leave the
      > string.
      >
      > Everything else being consistant, this should eliminate some of the
      > arrows
      > dropping sooner than others.
      >
      > Brad
      >
      > Subject: Re: [SCA-Archery] Event differences/Seeking advice
      >
      >
      > >Sounds exciting! Unfortunately I think we're stuck with the 20/30/40
      > business, and timed shoots make no sense. Oh well!
      > >
      > >
      > >My form and anchor points are just fine, so my difficulty is figuring
      > out
      > how far above the target to aim... even with a good anchor point/release
      > I
      > get random arrow speeds!! ANY HINTS?
      > >
      > >
      > >Thanks as always for all the great advice!
      > >Alestra
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 5
      > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:46:32 -0700 (PDT)
      > From: Nest verch Tangwistel <eastarch@...>
      > Subject: Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      >
      > What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it is not
      > so much a problem with the archer at all but with the equipment. I have
      > had supposedly professionally made arrows which differed in weight as
      > much
      > as 150 grains between them, and 20 pounds spine weight. That can add a
      > lot
      > of randomness to shots. Especially at longer distances.
      >
      > Nest
      > --- Brad Boda d'Aylward <bradb@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Random arrow speeds???
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 05:28:04 -0000
      > From: "Guy Taylor" <greytaylor@...>
      > Subject: Re: Event differences/Seeking advice
      >
      > This is where getting your arrows from a reputable maker who states
      > that his or her arrows are weight matched and hand spined shows up.
      >
      > Keep in mind that not everyone matches the arrows they sell. If
      > they do not say that they are matched, you got exactly what you
      > payed for. If you purchased them from F/S Archery in California,
      > you got exactly what you payed for, but not what they advertise.
      >
      > Guy
      >
      > --- In SCA-Archery@yahoogroups.com, Nest verch Tangwistel
      > <eastarch@y...> wrote:
      > > What about poorly matched arrows? Did we ask about that? Maybe it
      > >is not so much a problem with the archer at all but with the
      > >equipment. I have had supposedly professionally made arrows which
      > >differed in weight as much as 150 grains between them, and 20
      > >pounds spine weight. That can add a lot of randomness to shots.
      > >Especially at longer distances.
      > >
      > > Nest
      >
      >
      >
      >
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