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Re: [SB-r-us] Re: Advice on guttering and downspouts for SB wall

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  • chapternovice
    Thanks Derek and Sarah for your responses. Sorry for the delay in replying, it has taken a while to get pictures and upload them to the files section. Our
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 19, 2013
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      Thanks Derek and Sarah for your responses. Sorry for the delay in replying,
      it has taken a while to get pictures and upload them to the files section.
      Our overhang on that side is about four feet. Once the water gets to ground
      level we are required by code to route it down to sea level in an enclosed
      pipe as it's a steep slope area. I am reluctant to use chains there because
      of the splashback; we usually get wind along with the rain. I would rather
      enclose the water as soon as possible, to stop it causing trouble.... The
      bales there are about 15' high, so plenty of room for splashes.

      I would like to keep the downspouts close to the deck to make cleanout easy,
      as we get covered in fir needles from the trees and have to clear the tops
      of the downspouts multiple times per season. I think what I would like to do
      is double up the downspout and bring it down by the side of the deck, well
      away from the bale wall. The deck is waterproofed and will be tiled etc, so
      much more resistant to a soaking than the wall...

      Many thanks for the input,

      Anna
    • RT
      in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/message/16171 ... [snapshot at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/files/Moisture/IMG_5393.JPG ] ... Hi Anna and SB
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 24, 2013
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        in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/message/16171
        Anna on Victoria Island, (British Columbia, Canada) wrote :

        > ... we get up to 5" rain a day sometime

        > We have the spout tucking in under the overhang and fastened directly to
        > thebale wall plaster
        [snapshot at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/files/Moisture/IMG_5393.JPG ]

        > ... but given the potential for a horrible soaking of the bale wall if
        > something
        > goes wrong with the downspout in a storm, I would like to install
        > something that is more resilient.

        Hi Anna and SB Yahoos;

        My guess is that conventional gutters and downspouts (of the type shown in
        the posted snapshot) are easily inundated (or overshot ?) during a heavy
        rain of the sort you mention.

        Furthermore, given the setting (coniferous woods) and configuration of the
        downspout (ie buried), my guess is that the downspouts are quickly
        rendered dysfunctional by a heavy rain and/or getting clogged with needles
        ... at a minimum resulting in the eavestroughs filling up and spilling
        over in an uncontrolled fashion (thereby defeating the intention of the
        Code requirement for the enclosed conductor pipe) and potentially causing
        problems with splashback and/or foundation damage in addition to the soil
        erosion/runoff issues.

        I'm not very familiar with the climate of your locale other than thinking
        of it as being in the Banana Belt of Canada (it was about minus 40 with
        windchill here in Kanata this morning and yesterday morning) so I don't
        know how often you experience freezing temperatures if at all.

        But I can tell you that if your downspout & conductor set-up were done on
        a house in my locale, the conductor pipe would almost surely self-destruct
        in the first winter, being blown apart by frost action after the water
        inside froze up at some point where a clog (gradual ice build-up and/or
        debris) formed.

        And if the roof cladding were metal, one would surely be picking up the
        eavestrough from the ground after every winter, it having been torn off by
        snow accumulations sliding off.

        These are just a few of the reasons that I tend to avoid the use of
        conventional eavestroughs and conductors. They are a high maintenance item
        that only works marginally well and only during tame rain events.

        The only place I use conventional (ie 4" or 5") eavestrough is on lower
        level auxiliary roofs (ie brise de soleil, porch roofs etc.) and if
        possible omit the conductor pipes, having the troughs emptying directly
        (via a chain or such-like) into rain barrels or a pond. If into rain
        barrels, the barrels are elevated so that the drop is seldom more than 1.5
        metres and the chain/rain leader is sheltered from winds by shrubbery. If
        a pond, the pond is far enough away from the house that wind-blown dribble
        isn't an issue.

        All around the foundation perimeter, I like to use a stone plinth
        (comprised of 5/8" or larger crushed stone or rounded river stone) over
        top of a clay cap (clay cap steeply sloped to drain away from the
        foundation) extending out from the foundation to beyond the drip zone of
        the eaves above.

        I lay a continuous sheet of agricultural black polyethylene (6 mil or
        thicker) over the clay cap weighted down at the outside edge by "curb"
        stones before placing the crushed stone or river stone. The separation
        sheet prevents intermingling of the clay and stone so that clay fines do
        not clog up the interstitial voids in the stone and subsequently
        inhibiting drainage. (There is also a filter fabric placed between the
        clay cap/backfill and the granular drainage material below grade around
        the base of the foundation for the same reason).

        One could, if desired, design/detail the plinth so that runoff would be
        directed to a holding pond or dry well (ie as in Annas situation ?) rather
        than just letting it feed the soil and vegetation beyond the edge of the
        plinth.

        For areas where an "eavestrough" is necessary to control runoff from an
        upper storey roof (ie adjacent to a walkway) I have in the past, site-made
        approx. 2 ft-wide by 4 or 6 inch-deep "gutters" integrated into overhead
        canopies for the walkway using standard 3 ft wide galvalume flat stock
        that is readily available at most building supply outlets in 8 or 10 ft
        lengths. ie Width dependent upon height/detail of upstand on longitudinal
        edges of the pans, subtracted from un-cut width of sheet stock. Flat sheet
        stock is also available in 4 ft widths but not very common, so wider
        "gutters" would be possible.

        Then again, I'm speaking from Ontario experience which may be not at all
        applicable to the BC experience so I may just be blowing borborygmi out of
        my hat (again)... which is why I've copied good ol' Habib Gonzales, the
        Godfather of the Pacific Northwest SB family, who will hopefully
        straighten me out if necessary.

        --
        === * ===
        Rob Tom AOD257
        Kanata, Ontario, Canada

        < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot c a >
        (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "reply")
      • Habib John Gonzalez
        Hello Anna and Rob: A useful gutter/downspout configuration for BC coastal or Interior Rainforest bioregions such as the Kootenays is a straight drop downspout
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 24, 2013
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          Hello Anna and Rob:

          A useful gutter/downspout configuration for BC coastal or Interior
          Rainforest bioregions such as the Kootenays is a straight drop downspout or
          conductor from the edge of the three foot overhangs of the plastered bale
          home. The standard round thin wall plastic downspout can be replaced with a
          heavier single length of 40 or 80 gauge PVC pipe fastened with a hose clamp
          to a metal stake deeply set into the soil.

          This is the method I used for the roof catchment water system on my Kootenay
          home. The 1500 sqft of steep metal roof feeds 90 linear feet of gutters
          fitted with 9 feet of brush like filters above the two downspouts. The
          gutters need cleaning at least twice a year. After freeze-up, the downspouts
          are removed to prevent ice damage.

          At the highest point of the set-up, the gutters are fastened at least 2
          inches below the lower edge of the metal roof and have not been damaged by
          the heavy slow slides off the roof in the last eight years. The details of
          this system were the result of a number of experiments and changes over the
          first few years of use.


          All the best,

          Habib



          *****************************************
          SUSTAINABLEWORKS
          Habib John L Gonzalez
          250-359-5095
          780-438-0821
          www.sustainableworks.ca
          *****************************************

          "Better the kindness of imperfection than perfection without kindness"
          -----Original Message-----
          From: RT
          Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:13 AM
          To: SB Yahoos
          Subject: Re: [SB-r-Us] Advice on guttering and downspouts for SB wall

          in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/message/16171
          Anna on Victoria Island, (British Columbia, Canada) wrote :

          > ... we get up to 5" rain a day sometime

          > We have the spout tucking in under the overhang and fastened directly to
          > thebale wall plaster
          [snapshot at
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/files/Moisture/IMG_5393.JPG ]

          > ... but given the potential for a horrible soaking of the bale wall if
          > something
          > goes wrong with the downspout in a storm, I would like to install
          > something that is more resilient.
        • Peter/Pam Martin
          ... I m a stone s throw from you and the local climate normals for this area may be worth considering: over the past 40 years, the single day max rainfall was
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 26, 2013
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            At 12:05 PM 1/13/2013, Anna wrote:
            >I am looking for advice on a good way to do downspouts on our SB wall. The
            >spout drains a big section of roof above (30'x20') and we get up to 5" rain
            >a day sometimes, being in a rainforest. We have the spout tucking in under
            >the overhang and fastened directly to the bale wall plaster like we have
            >seen/heard of at present, but given the potential for a horrible soaking of
            >the bale wall if something goes wrong with the downspout in a storm, I would
            >like to install something that is more resilient. Any thoughts, links or
            >photos would be much appreciated,

            I'm a stone's throw from you and the local
            climate normals for this area may be worth
            considering: over the past 40 years, the single
            day max rainfall was 114mm, yearly there were 8
            days of rainfall >25mm, the single day max
            snowfall was 42cm, the extreme daily snow depth
            was 98cm, and even though the record low was
            -14.5°C, the average low for the coldest month
            was 0.1°C for example. Thus, even though extreme
            (from Victoria's point of view) weather is
            possible, it is not common. Climate change models
            for our area predict milder and wetter winters.

            It is usual here to have 5" continuous aluminum
            gutters with 2"x3" aluminum downspouts leading to
            a solid ABS or PVC perimeter drain system that
            leads away from the house. The gutters may also
            have some sort of leaf guard system or downspout
            clean outs. I think a system like this would
            suffice, perhaps having more downspouts than
            usual, and standing the downspouts off the bale
            wall with a spacer mounted as high up as
            possible. Periodic inspection of the gutter seams
            and outlets, and downspout joints would be de
            rigeur. For a standing seam metal roof, one may
            use snow stops or guards to prevent sliding snow
            from ripping the gutters off. I have just such a
            roof, gutter and drain system and it has
            performed admirably for many years. Hope this helps. Peter.
          • RT
            On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:10:57 -0500, Habib John Gonzalez ... A thought for a variation on HabiBro s note above: Perhaps a gate or arbour could be built at the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
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              On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:10:57 -0500, Habib John Gonzalez
              <habibg@...> wrote:


              > A useful gutter/downspout configuration for BC coastal or Interior
              > Rainforest bioregions such as the Kootenays is a straight drop downspout
              > or conductor from the edge of the three foot overhangs of the plastered
              > bale home. The standard round thin wall plastic downspout can be
              > replaced with a heavier single length of 40 or 80 gauge PVC pipe
              > fastened with a hose clamp to a metal stake deeply set into the soil.

              A thought for a variation on HabiBro's note above:

              Perhaps a gate or arbour could be built at the corner of the house where
              the snapshot depicts a conductor pipe running down the side of the house
              and planted into the ground.

              I would use stone or masonry but wood would be fine too.

              The gate or arbour would be located such that it would support an approx.
              2 ft-wide trough over the arch, the trough integrated into the overhead
              trellis framing so as to be unnoticeable as such.

              The existing conductor pipe would be removed so that the downspout would
              empty directly into the arbour-trough.
              In fact, I'd go so far as to cover-over the downspout completely and
              remove the end cap on the eavestrough.

              This would eliminate the spectre of coniferous needles clogging the
              downspout and conductor pipe ensuring that drainage of the eavestroughs
              would never be compromised so long as the slope of the troughs is
              maintained.

              The outflow from the arbour-trough could be directed to a stepped-stone
              waterfall down to ground level ...or if the Code requires the downflow to
              be enclosed, into a large diameter hollow-core column ... like a mini silo
              -- something big enough to climb inside of if necessary for
              servicing/maintenance.

              The mini-silo could be made to store water if desired or it could be
              directed into drainage pipes or a dry well.

              The mini-silo could be a piece of culvert stood on end ... or it could be
              masonry ... or it could be salvaged tempered glass (ie constructed like an
              aquarium) ... or whatever suitable item that might catch your eye at the
              local recycling/re-use yard.

              Of course, the mini-silo could be concealed behind shrubbery if desired.

              *

              And I second the motion to send out a BOLO for bbbBob Bolles.
              My guess is that Preston of the Mojave plastered ol' bbbBob into a wall
              and forgot where.


              --
              === * ===
              Rob Tom AOD257
              Kanata, Ontario, Canada

              < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot c a >
              (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "reply")
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