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Re: [SB-r-us] Re: Final Coat Dilemma

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  • Toby Weymiller
    Thanks for the reply, Bill. I met with Noda-San last Friday and he had a few ideas up his sleeve. The first step, he says, is to tear away a few small sample
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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      Thanks for the reply, Bill. I met with Noda-San last Friday and he had a few ideas up his sleeve. The first step, he says, is to tear away a few small sample sections of the current two layers and see how they are holding up, as well as check the condition of the straw underneath. He is going to do this in April and then, hopefully, we'll come up with a material and decision to apply sometime in May.

      His idea I liked (so far as it went along with what you & others have suggested) was a limewash of sorts first that is worked into a very scratched up current fill coat. He would then apply the material you are referring to below, but what he called, "tosashikkui". It is a lime/clay mix with nori in it. He is thinking that this would be a very thin coat that is approx 1cm thick. He, and the other Japanese natural builder that came to the meeting with him, confirmed that this is the material that has been used down in Kochi Prefecture which gets hit by heavy typhoons every year and many of the walls have stayed erected for over 600 years. A good sales point for that material, eh?

      I do have two follow-up questions:

      1) What do you reckon the cost of something like RobTom is recommending would be in comparison to Noda's suggestion above which he is estimating to be between $10~15K.

      2) Noda-San, and my other natural builder friend, seem to be really concerned and questioning my original natural builders decision to go so heavy with sand in the first/scratch coat. It is a 50/50 mixture of sand/clay with the 2nd coat being about 57/43 sand/clay. I've come to understand that earth materials differ all over the planet so the key is to test multiple ratios of what you have available and that is exactly what we did. Noda-San seems to think this could make a big difference on how the walls perform. How do you (anybody) feel about this?

      Thanks again for all of your thoughts!!!

      Toby
      maikotobybomber.blogspot.com

      Sent from my iPhone

      On 2010/02/27, at 1:42, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...> wrote:

      Toby,
      This is fast, I'm out the door, but after looking at the photos, my first instinct is to pursue the course of action suggested by RT below.
      The other thing is that you don't want to get into an experimental plaster process that will have unpredictable results.
      On top of that you don't want to get stuck trying to import Rain Sil from the States or some other product.
      That will start to make it very expensive and impractical.
      So when you get down to it, if you pursue plaster, I would suggest that you stick with something that is local.
      The only thing that comes to mind, if you use a Japanese craftsman, is a finish that they call Otsu Migaki which is lime added to the clay.
      Typically that is a highly polished finish and you don't want that. We have adapted into a mix that includes sand and well as the other ingredients.
      Talk to Noda-san and see if he can make some tests that adjust the traditional formula and see how he feels about it.

      But I have to say, that the thing I feel the best about is what Rob is suggesting below. It will be predictable and give you good results over the years.
      Anything else you are rolling the dice.

      Bill
      Athena & Bill Steen
      caneloproject@...
      www.caneloproject.com
      www.caneloproject.blogspot.com




      On Feb 25, 2010, at 2:27 PM, archilogic wrote:



      --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, Toby Weymiller <clubbongo@...> wrote:
      The rain woke me up. After 3+ months of constant snowfall

      and Bug-eyed Beel wrote (off-list):

      How about taking a look at this photo of this house in Japan
      ... see if you have any ideas about how to finish the exterior.
      Since the frame is on the outside, I got to thinking that there
      might be some fun ways to go about it.

      http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LcdK8E_1rxQ/S4Usxstmz6I/AAAAAAAABP8/xZaQYLm9OME/s1600-h/iPhone+176.JPG

      I just took a quick look and it appears that the plaster is inset from the plane of the spandrel beams enough that rainscreen panels would be provided with something to sit on at the base of the panels.

      If that is the case, I think that if I were doing it, I'd be looking at making pre-fabricated rainscreen panels (ie inside, protected from snow and rain).

      They might be pre-cast stucco (maybe a hypertuffa mix ?), perhaps with some sort of artwork or pattern incised of formed into the surface or simply an exposed stone aggregate finish (ie "stone dash" if done as plaster on a vertical surface) ... or they might be wood, either in conventional siding patterns or in elaborate parquet patterns that are more typically seen with flooring, the latter being relatively easy to do since one would be working inside, on a horizontal surface with both sides of the panel accessible.

      Or they may be glass, with the glass (mirror) configured as faux windows (noting that the glass areas appear to be minimal on the ground level, fenestration being analogous to eyes on the human face -- "Windows to the soul".

      The existing plaster would be the drainage plane/rodent/fire/air barrier and there would be a ventilation air space/drainage cavity provided between it and the rainscreen panels.

      I haven't looked at the other elevations but if the plaster fields between the exposed posts and beams are somewhat similar in dimension, one might look at a rainscreen panel module that might allow one to change the panels (if no two are the same in character) around from time to time, in the manner that one might move artwork around inside the house.

      === * ===
      Rob Tom
      Kanata, Ontario, Canada
      <A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot c a >
      (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")




      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Toby Weymiller
      Thanks for your response, Bill. Good stuff.   For the record, the other natural builder at the meeting last Friday was not Kyle.  Although, he d probably
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2010
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        Thanks for your response, Bill. Good stuff.   For the record, the other natural builder at the meeting last Friday was not Kyle.  Although, he'd probably agree.  Anyway,  I had a nice morning today so I went outside, took photo's around the entire house and posted them on the blog.  Feel free to check them out of you want to see the walls and offer more suggestions/thoughts.  They are always welcome!!  Thanks again. Here's the link: maikotobybomber.blogspot.com
         
        /--- On Wed, 3/3/10, Athena&Bill Steen <absteen@...> wrote:


        From: Athena&Bill Steen <absteen@...>
        Subject: Re: [SB-r-us] Re: Final Coat Dilemma
        To: "Toby Weymiller" <clubbongo@...>
        Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 12:15 AM





        On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:01 AM, Toby Weymiller wrote:



        His idea I liked (so far as it went along with what you & others have suggested) was a limewash of sorts first that is worked into a very scratched up current fill coat. He would then apply the material you are referring to below, but what he called, "tosashikkui". It is a lime/clay mix with nori in it. He is thinking that this would be a very thin coat that is approx 1cm thick. He, and the other Japanese natural builder that came to the meeting with him, confirmed that this is the material that has been used down in Kochi Prefecture which gets hit by heavy typhoons every year and many of the walls have stayed erected for over 600 years. A good sales point for that material, eh?



        I think that's a good course to follow, the addition of the seaweed to the mix should make it even better.


        I do have two follow-up questions:

        1) What do you reckon the cost of something like RobTom is recommending  would be in comparison to Noda's suggestion above which he is estimating to be between $10~15K.


        I would talk with him first and then the cost will depend upon cost of materials on your end and whatever labor you would need.



        2) Noda-San, and my other natural builder friend, seem to be really concerned and questioning my original natural builders decision to go so heavy with sand in the first/scratch coat. It is a 50/50 mixture of sand/clay with the 2nd coat being about 57/43 sand/clay. I've come to understand that earth materials differ all over the planet so the key is to test multiple ratios of what you have available and that is exactly what we did. Noda-San seems to think this could make a big difference on how the walls perform. How do you (anybody) feel about this?


        I do agree with he and Kyle.  We only use sand in the final coat(s) of plaster.  Our base coat which is usually about an inch and a half thick is typically only clay with a large quantity of chopped straw.  Sometimes we add a little sand, but rarely.  It is essentially the same as what the Japanese use for the body of their walls.  So it depends how strong and resistant your base coat is, I'm sure that's what he wants to have a look at.  I have confidence in him and I think he'll come up with a good solution for you.


        Bill



        Thanks again for all of your thoughts!!!

        Toby
        maikotobybomber.blogspot.com

        Sent from my iPhone

        On 2010/02/27, at 1:42, Athena & Bill Steen <absteen@...> wrote:

        Toby,
        This is fast, I'm out the door, but after looking at the photos, my first instinct is to pursue the course of action suggested by RT below.
        The other thing is that you don't want to get into an experimental plaster process that will have unpredictable results.
        On top of that you don't want to get stuck trying to import Rain Sil from the States or some other product.
        That will start to make it very expensive and impractical.
        So when you get down to it, if you pursue plaster, I would suggest that you stick with something that is local.
        The only thing that comes to mind, if you use a Japanese craftsman, is a finish that they call Otsu Migaki which is lime added to the clay.
        Typically that is a highly polished finish and you don't want that.  We have adapted into a mix that includes sand and well as the other ingredients.
        Talk to Noda-san and see if he can make some tests that adjust the traditional formula and see how he feels about it.

        But I have to say, that the thing I feel the best about is what Rob is suggesting below.  It will be predictable and give you good results over the years.
        Anything else you are rolling the dice.

        Bill
        Athena & Bill Steen
        caneloproject@...
        www.caneloproject.com
        www.caneloproject.blogspot.com




        On Feb 25, 2010, at 2:27 PM, archilogic wrote:



        --- In SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com, Toby Weymiller <clubbongo@...> wrote:
        The rain woke me up.  After 3+ months of constant snowfall

        and Bug-eyed Beel wrote (off-list):

        How about taking a look at this photo of this house in Japan
        ... see if you have any ideas about how to finish the exterior.
        Since the frame is on the outside, I got to thinking that there
        might be some fun ways to go about it.

        http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LcdK8E_1rxQ/S4Usxstmz6I/AAAAAAAABP8/xZaQYLm9OME/s1600-h/iPhone+176.JPG

        I just took a quick look and it appears that the plaster is inset from the plane of the spandrel beams enough that rainscreen panels would be provided with something to sit on at the base of the panels.

        If that is the case, I think that if I were doing it, I'd be looking at making pre-fabricated rainscreen panels (ie inside, protected from snow and rain).

        They might be pre-cast stucco (maybe a hypertuffa mix ?), perhaps with some sort of artwork or pattern incised of formed into the surface or simply an exposed stone aggregate finish (ie "stone dash" if done as plaster on a vertical surface) ... or they might be wood, either in conventional siding patterns or in elaborate parquet patterns that are more typically seen with flooring, the latter being relatively easy to do since one would be working inside, on a horizontal surface with both sides of the panel accessible.

        Or they may be glass, with the glass (mirror) configured as faux windows (noting that the glass areas appear to be minimal on the ground level, fenestration being analogous to eyes on the human face -- "Windows to the soul".

        The existing plaster would be the drainage plane/rodent/fire/air barrier and there would be a ventilation air space/drainage cavity provided between it and the rainscreen panels.

        I haven't looked at the other elevations but if the plaster fields between the exposed posts and beams are somewhat similar in dimension, one might look at a rainscreen panel module that might allow one to change the panels (if no two are the same in character) around from time to time, in the manner that one might move artwork around inside the house.

        === * ===
        Rob Tom
        Kanata, Ontario, Canada
        <A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
        (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "Reply")




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links











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