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RE: [SACC-L] MOOCs

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  • Gilliland, Mary
    Thanks for this! Mary Kay Gilliland Pima Community College, Tucson, AZ 85709-0215 mkgilliland@pima.edu From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 11 , May 2, 2013
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      Thanks for this!

      Mary Kay Gilliland
      Pima Community College,
      Tucson, AZ 85709-0215
      mkgilliland@...

      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Angela Jenks
      Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:14 PM
      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SACC-L] MOOCs



      Hi everyone,
      At the SACC meeting last month, we were discussing concerns about MOOCs
      (Massively Open Online Courses) and new proposals in CA to allow/require
      these courses to be accepted for credit at public colleges and
      universities.

      I think this response from the Philosophy Department at San Jose State
      University does a good job of highlighting many of the concerning issues:
      http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-an-Open-Letter/138937/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en

      Angela

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lauratgonzalez
      Thanks for sharing, Angela. Really good summary of the issues. So good that I ve sent it to my academic senate president! Laura
      Message 2 of 11 , May 3, 2013
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        Thanks for sharing, Angela. Really good summary of the issues. So good that I've sent it to my academic senate president!

        Laura

        --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, Angela Jenks <angela.jenks@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi everyone,
        > At the SACC meeting last month, we were discussing concerns about MOOCs
        > (Massively Open Online Courses) and new proposals in CA to allow/require
        > these courses to be accepted for credit at public colleges and
        > universities.
        >
        > I think this response from the Philosophy Department at San Jose State
        > University does a good job of highlighting many of the concerning issues:
        > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-an-Open-Letter/138937/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
        >
        > Angela
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Tim Sullivan
        Thanks for sending this Angela. I have skimmed it, but I want to go back and read again, more carefully. It seems to speak clearly about the main issues. We
        Message 3 of 11 , May 3, 2013
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          Thanks for sending this Angela. I have skimmed it, but I want to go back and read again, more carefully. It seems to speak clearly about the main issues. We haven't seen the state leg moving in this direction in Texas....yet. I am thinking about sending on to our own Fac Assoc President.
          Tim
          Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
          Professor of Anthropology
          Richland College
          12800 Abrams Rd.
          Dallas, TX 75243

          972-238-6959
          tsullivan@...
          >>> lauratgonzalez 05/03/13 11:28 AM >>>

          Thanks for sharing, Angela. Really good summary of the issues. So good that I've sent it to my academic senate president!

          Laura

          --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, Angela Jenks wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          > At the SACC meeting last month, we were discussing concerns about MOOCs
          > (Massively Open Online Courses) and new proposals in CA to allow/require
          > these courses to be accepted for credit at public colleges and
          > universities.
          >
          > I think this response from the Philosophy Department at San Jose State
          > University does a good job of highlighting many of the concerning issues:
          > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-an-Open-Letter/138937/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
          >
          > Angela
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Lloyd Miller
          Thanks from me too, Angela. I think the SJS Philosophy Dept. folks made an important statement in defense of quality liberal arts education (beyond the usual
          Message 4 of 11 , May 4, 2013
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            Thanks from me too, Angela. I think the SJS Philosophy Dept. folks made an important statement in defense of quality liberal arts education (beyond the usual squabbles about which classroom technique works best), and I'm glad they made it public.

            Interestingly, their fear that MOOC's will create two distinct classes of education�one, high-quality, live classroom teaching for the private elite universities, and the other, "virtual" education through digital technology for everyone else�is a repeat of the university vs. community college battles of the late 1960s. My first job in 1968 was at a new community college that hired us "charter" faculty to write "behavioral objectives" (then popular in vocational education) for our courses, and create "audio-tutorial cassette tapes" (cassettes were ground-breaking technology then) as the primary means of teaching the objectives. About a year later, we faculty learned of the grand plan: to eventually replace the (qualified, full-time, contracted) professors who created the courses with "course managers" (their term) who could "administer" them (like SJU's "lab assistants").

            Much of our faculty training for these "educational innovations" included "expert consultants" who lectured to us for hours about the evils of the "lecture method of instruction," and how much better higher education would be if we could "remove the lecturing professors from center-stage." One ethnographic observation I read at the time (a comparative study of a four-year liberal arts college and a neighboring community college in New York) described students of the former as enthusiastically engaged in live classroom discussions with their professor(s) while students of the latter sat with earphones in front of blinking computer screens, passively watching and listening, and not interacting with anyone.

            (FYI, I wrote about this issue in an essay titled "Beware the 'Wave of the Future'" in the "Dialogue" section of ANTHROPOLOGY NEWS, May 2001. If anyone would like a copy, email me individually. I'll also send a copy [if you haven't read it] of former SACCer Howard Paap's short story, "The Last Lecture," a delightful satire of this issue.)

            So, I sympathize with Californians who are currently embroiled in this. But I'd predict that, like past "waves of the future," MOOC's will make some useful contributions to higher education and settle into whatever niche accommodates them, but they will not replace or destroy what we already have.

            Lloyd


            On May 3, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:

            > Thanks for sending this Angela. I have skimmed it, but I want to go back and read again, more carefully. It seems to speak clearly about the main issues. We haven't seen the state leg moving in this direction in Texas....yet. I am thinking about sending on to our own Fac Assoc President.
            > Tim
            > Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
            > Professor of Anthropology
            > Richland College
            > 12800 Abrams Rd.
            > Dallas, TX 75243
            >
            > 972-238-6959
            > tsullivan@...
            > >>> lauratgonzalez 05/03/13 11:28 AM >>>
            >
            > Thanks for sharing, Angela. Really good summary of the issues. So good that I've sent it to my academic senate president!
            >
            > Laura
            >
            > --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, Angela Jenks wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi everyone,
            > > At the SACC meeting last month, we were discussing concerns about MOOCs
            > > (Massively Open Online Courses) and new proposals in CA to allow/require
            > > these courses to be accepted for credit at public colleges and
            > > universities.
            > >
            > > I think this response from the Philosophy Department at San Jose State
            > > University does a good job of highlighting many of the concerning issues:
            > > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-an-Open-Letter/138937/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
            > >
            > > Angela
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Linda Light
            Lloyd, I d love to have a copy of your Beware... essay, as well as Howard Papps satire! I think they should both be spread everywhere, especially in the
            Message 5 of 11 , May 5, 2013
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              Lloyd,
              I'd love to have a copy of your "Beware..." essay, as well as Howard Papps satire! I think they should both be spread everywhere, especially in the halls of those who make educational decisions.
              Linda


              ________________________________
              From: Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2013 11:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] MOOCs


              Thanks from me too, Angela. I think the SJS Philosophy Dept. folks made an important statement in defense of quality liberal arts education (beyond the usual squabbles about which classroom technique works best), and I'm glad they made it public.

              Interestingly, their fear that MOOC's will create two distinct classes of education—one, high-quality, live classroom teaching for the private elite universities, and the other, "virtual" education through digital technology for everyone else—is a repeat of the university vs. community college battles of the late 1960s. My first job in 1968 was at a new community college that hired us "charter" faculty to write "behavioral objectives" (then popular in vocational education) for our courses, and create "audio-tutorial cassette tapes" (cassettes were ground-breaking technology then) as the primary means of teaching the objectives. About a year later, we faculty learned of the grand plan: to eventually replace the (qualified, full-time, contracted) professors who created the courses with "course managers" (their term) who could "administer" them (like SJU's "lab assistants").

              Much of our faculty training for these "educational innovations" included "expert consultants" who lectured to us for hours about the evils of the "lecture method of instruction," and how much better higher education would be if we could "remove the lecturing professors from center-stage." One ethnographic observation I read at the time (a comparative study of a four-year liberal arts college and a neighboring community college in New York) described students of the former as enthusiastically engaged in live classroom discussions with their professor(s) while students of the latter sat with earphones in front of blinking computer screens, passively watching and listening, and not interacting with anyone.

              (FYI, I wrote about this issue in an essay titled "Beware the 'Wave of the Future'" in the "Dialogue" section of ANTHROPOLOGY NEWS, May 2001. If anyone would like a copy, email me individually. I'll also send a copy [if you haven't read it] of former SACCer Howard Paap's short story, "The Last Lecture," a delightful satire of this issue.)

              So, I sympathize with Californians who are currently embroiled in this. But I'd predict that, like past "waves of the future," MOOC's will make some useful contributions to higher education and settle into whatever niche accommodates them, but they will not replace or destroy what we already have.

              Lloyd


              On May 3, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:

              > Thanks for sending this Angela. I have skimmed it, but I want to go back and read again, more carefully. It seems to speak clearly about the main issues. We haven't seen the state leg moving in this direction in Texas....yet. I am thinking about sending on to our own Fac Assoc President.
              > Tim
              > Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
              > Professor of Anthropology
              > Richland College
              > 12800 Abrams Rd.
              > Dallas, TX 75243
              >
              > 972-238-6959
              > tsullivan@...
              > >>> lauratgonzalez 05/03/13 11:28 AM >>>
              >
              > Thanks for sharing, Angela. Really good summary of the issues. So good that I've sent it to my academic senate president!
              >
              > Laura
              >
              > --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, Angela Jenks wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi everyone,
              > > At the SACC meeting last month, we were discussing concerns about MOOCs
              > > (Massively Open Online Courses) and new proposals in CA to allow/require
              > > these courses to be accepted for credit at public colleges and
              > > universities.
              > >
              > > I think this response from the Philosophy Department at San Jose State
              > > University does a good job of highlighting many of the concerning issues:
              > > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Document-an-Open-Letter/138937/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
              > >
              > > Angela
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Angela Jenks
              Thanks for posting this, Llood--I d love to read The Last Lecture if you could send it! Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks s response to the SJSU
              Message 6 of 11 , May 5, 2013
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                Thanks for posting this, Llood--I'd love to read "The Last Lecture" if you
                could send it!

                Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks's response to the SJSU
                letter:
                http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/teaching/open-letter-sjsu-philosophy-mooc-2013.html

                I think his plans for the human evolution MOOC that he's developing show a
                lot of the great things that can come out of these technologies, but I'm
                not sure his statement that "neither I nor anyone else is imagining that
                another institution will take my MOOC, clap on a teaching assistant, and
                charge students tuition to take it" is accurate. It seems like some are
                definitely imagining that.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Laura Gonzalez
                Thanks for John Hawks reply, Angela. I hadn t yet seen it. I m especially interested because I m signed up for his MOOC this fall. I appreciate his support
                Message 7 of 11 , May 5, 2013
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                  Thanks for John Hawks' reply, Angela. I hadn't yet seen it. I'm especially interested because I'm signed up for his MOOC this fall. I appreciate his support for innovation in higher ed, but I agree that he may be denying himself the real administrators' purpose for adopting MOOCs, which seems to be saving money.

                  Laura

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On May 5, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Angela Jenks <angela.jenks@...> wrote:

                  > Thanks for posting this, Llood--I'd love to read "The Last Lecture" if you
                  > could send it!
                  >
                  > Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks's response to the SJSU
                  > letter:
                  > http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/teaching/open-letter-sjsu-philosophy-mooc-2013.html
                  >
                  > I think his plans for the human evolution MOOC that he's developing show a
                  > lot of the great things that can come out of these technologies, but I'm
                  > not sure his statement that "neither I nor anyone else is imagining that
                  > another institution will take my MOOC, clap on a teaching assistant, and
                  > charge students tuition to take it" is accurate. It seems like some are
                  > definitely imagining that.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bob Muckle
                  Hawks also had some considerable back-and-forth on Twitter, defending himself. Hawks seems pretty defensive. I m with Laura on this....I think he may be
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 5, 2013
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                    Hawks also had some considerable back-and-forth on Twitter, defending himself. Hawks seems pretty defensive. I'm with Laura on this....I think he may be denying the real admistrator's purpose.



                    Another thing to consider about MOOCs is that when compared to many big university Intro classes, with hundreds of students and mutiple teaching assistants and no written assignments, MOOCs aren't usualy such a big difference.





                    Bob

                    ________________________________
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Laura Gonzalez [ltgonzalez@...]
                    Sent: May-05-13 12:51 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Re: MOOCs



                    Thanks for John Hawks' reply, Angela. I hadn't yet seen it. I'm especially interested because I'm signed up for his MOOC this fall. I appreciate his support for innovation in higher ed, but I agree that he may be denying himself the real administrators' purpose for adopting MOOCs, which seems to be saving money.

                    Laura

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On May 5, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Angela Jenks <angela.jenks@...<mailto:angela.jenks%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                    > Thanks for posting this, Llood--I'd love to read "The Last Lecture" if you
                    > could send it!
                    >
                    > Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks's response to the SJSU
                    > letter:
                    > http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/teaching/open-letter-sjsu-philosophy-mooc-2013.html
                    >
                    > I think his plans for the human evolution MOOC that he's developing show a
                    > lot of the great things that can come out of these technologies, but I'm
                    > not sure his statement that "neither I nor anyone else is imagining that
                    > another institution will take my MOOC, clap on a teaching assistant, and
                    > charge students tuition to take it" is accurate. It seems like some are
                    > definitely imagining that.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Anthropmor
                    There is also a little problem...for the last 2-3 decades, no knees moved, and our legs were cut off there. That is why there is 75% adjunct faculty. There
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 5, 2013
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                      There is also a little problem...for the last 2-3 decades, no knees moved, and our legs were cut off there. That is why there is 75% adjunct faculty.
                      There is little support or defense- of higher ed or our departments in general.
                      The whole sale dismantling of higher ed ( not to mention public education in general) has been taking place for a long time....
                      Mike Pavlik



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Angela Jenks <angela.jenks@...>
                      To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sun, May 5, 2013 2:03 pm
                      Subject: [SACC-L] Re: MOOCs




                      Thanks for posting this, Llood--I'd love to read "The Last Lecture" if you
                      could send it!

                      Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks's response to the SJSU
                      letter:
                      http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/teaching/open-letter-sjsu-philosophy-mooc-2013.html

                      I think his plans for the human evolution MOOC that he's developing show a
                      lot of the great things that can come out of these technologies, but I'm
                      not sure his statement that "neither I nor anyone else is imagining that
                      another institution will take my MOOC, clap on a teaching assistant, and
                      charge students tuition to take it" is accurate. It seems like some are
                      definitely imagining that.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lewine, Mark
                      excellent point...there is an interesting irony here...the MOOC s could be used as the answer to the developmental education issue if they can be used to
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 7, 2013
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                        excellent point...there is an interesting irony here...the MOOC's could be used as the answer to the developmental education issue if they can be used to enculturate students to the basics of college culture, pre-intro. course in each field of study to give students a leg up when they take the tested/graded version at their campus of record with the course of record. I wonder if we could develop a student handbook for each MOOC intro. class as a companion manual for the student.


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Bob Muckle
                        Sent: Sun 5/5/2013 4:21 PM
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Re: MOOCs

                        Hawks also had some considerable back-and-forth on Twitter, defending himself. Hawks seems pretty defensive. I'm with Laura on this....I think he may be denying the real admistrator's purpose.



                        Another thing to consider about MOOCs is that when compared to many big university Intro classes, with hundreds of students and mutiple teaching assistants and no written assignments, MOOCs aren't usualy such a big difference.





                        Bob

                        ________________________________
                        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Laura Gonzalez [ltgonzalez@...]
                        Sent: May-05-13 12:51 PM
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Re: MOOCs



                        Thanks for John Hawks' reply, Angela. I hadn't yet seen it. I'm especially interested because I'm signed up for his MOOC this fall. I appreciate his support for innovation in higher ed, but I agree that he may be denying himself the real administrators' purpose for adopting MOOCs, which seems to be saving money.

                        Laura

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On May 5, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Angela Jenks <angela.jenks@...<mailto:angela.jenks%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                        > Thanks for posting this, Llood--I'd love to read "The Last Lecture" if you
                        > could send it!
                        >
                        > Also wanted to share anthropologist John Hawks's response to the SJSU
                        > letter:
                        > http://johnhawks.net/weblog/topics/teaching/open-letter-sjsu-philosophy-mooc-2013.html
                        >
                        > I think his plans for the human evolution MOOC that he's developing show a
                        > lot of the great things that can come out of these technologies, but I'm
                        > not sure his statement that "neither I nor anyone else is imagining that
                        > another institution will take my MOOC, clap on a teaching assistant, and
                        > charge students tuition to take it" is accurate. It seems like some are
                        > definitely imagining that.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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