Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

Expand Messages
  • Lloyd Miller
    I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 1, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins and evolution that included biological anth and archaeology, and one on cultural with an ethnographic component. By the late 70s, however, the human origins died (students deemed it simply too difficult--"too technical") and I settled for teaching what I could of those two sub-disciplines in a five-field intro to anthro course. The cultural course survived.

      Though Phil is right about the decline in math and science education, I'm inclined to believe that higher education in general was becoming too much for increasing numbers of entering community college students. I didn't include any real math in the course, but the details of classification and taxonomy for both biological forms and archaeological finds seemed "just not worth students' efforts." Though I'm a cultural anthropologist, I loved teaching that course, and I feel strongly that the culture and biology of humanity's first 99 plus percent of existence on the planet should be an essential part of an education. And our discipline is the only place students can get it!

      So I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps America will begin to tackle its educational problems in earnest before you either give up in frustration or retire.

      Lloyd


      On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Anthropmor wrote:

      >
      >
      > But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.
      >
      > I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
      > The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
      > Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
      > I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
      > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      >
      > Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
      >
      > Phil
      >
      > --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM
      >
      > think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
      > Mike Pavlik
      >
      > US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
      > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
      > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      >
      > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
      >
      > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
      >
      > Phil
      >
      > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
      > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
      >
      > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
      > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
      > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
      > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
      > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
      >
      > Deborah
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > Lloyd Miller
      > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      >
      > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
      > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
      > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
      > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
      > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
      > Maybe it will come to that.
      >
      > Lloyd
      >
      > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
      >
      > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
      > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
      > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
      > >
      > > Frank
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
      > > >
      > > >> Hey Lloyd.
      > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
      > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
      > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
      > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
      > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
      > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
      > retire in a few more years.
      > > >> Thanks,
      > > >> Tim
      > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
      > > >> Professor of Anthropology
      > > >> Richland College
      > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
      > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
      > > >>
      > > >> 972-238-6959
      > > >> tsullivan@...
      > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
      > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
      > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
      > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
      > > >>
      > > >> Lloyd
      > > >>
      > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kaupp, Ann
      Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think,
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 2, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think, and talk about where the country is going or should be going and about the issues facing us.


        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Stein
        Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:50 AM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...



        There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

        Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

        Phil

        On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>> wrote:

        From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>>
        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



        I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
        know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
        tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
        honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
        startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

        Deborah

        -----Original Message-----
        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
        Lloyd Miller
        Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

        Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
        well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
        evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
        creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
        believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
        Maybe it will come to that.

        Lloyd

        On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

        > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
        presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
        so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
        >
        > Frank
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...<mailto:lloyd.miller%40mchsi.com>> wrote:
        >
        > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
        > >
        > >> Hey Lloyd.
        > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
        constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
        ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
        to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
        ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
        need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
        retire in a few more years.
        > >> Thanks,
        > >> Tim
        > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
        > >> Professor of Anthropology
        > >> Richland College
        > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
        > >> Dallas, TX 75243
        > >>
        > >> 972-238-6959
        > >> tsullivan@...<mailto:tsullivan%40dcccd.edu>
        > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
        > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
        Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
        generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
        > >>
        > >> Lloyd
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------

        Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.