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Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

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  • Anthropmor
    You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about critical thinking being
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
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      You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about 'critical thinking" being mistaken for "criticizing the life out of an opponent"..And "we" are the opponent.
      One of the staff members of the college found sociology 'too critical of America"... and I have had students try to use the King James Version of the Bible as a source in Anthropology.
      And not for stories, but, for.. like...- a reference on evolution.
      ye gads
      Mike Pavlik




      -----Original Message-----
      From: kent morris <km52@...>
      To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 1:20 pm
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




      cute...
      On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, <dianne.chidester@...> wrote:

      > One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
      > is the difference between science and religion.
      >
      > One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
      > when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
      > students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
      > fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
      > the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)
      >
      > --Dianne
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of Lloyd Miller
      > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      >
      > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
      > as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
      > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
      > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
      > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
      > "science." Maybe it will come to that.
      >
      > Lloyd
      >
      >
      > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
      >
      >> What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
      > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
      > is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
      >>
      >> Frank
      >>
      >> Sent from my iPhone
      >>
      >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >>> Sure, Tim, here it is.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Hey Lloyd.
      >>>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
      > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
      > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
      > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
      > students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
      > (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
      > and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
      >>>> Thanks,
      >>>> Tim
      >>>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
      >>>> Professor of Anthropology
      >>>> Richland College
      >>>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
      >>>> Dallas, TX 75243
      >>>>
      >>>> 972-238-6959
      >>>> tsullivan@...
      >>>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
      >>>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
      > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
      > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
      > it.
      >>>>
      >>>> Lloyd
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
      > Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Deborah Shepherd
      I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, Just so you know, I don t believe in evolution... I would stop them right there and tell them
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
        know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
        tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
        honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
        startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

        Deborah

        -----Original Message-----
        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Lloyd Miller
        Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

        Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
        well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
        evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
        creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
        believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
        Maybe it will come to that.

        Lloyd


        On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

        > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
        presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
        so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
        >
        > Frank
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
        > >
        > >> Hey Lloyd.
        > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
        constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
        ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
        to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
        ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
        need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
        retire in a few more years.
        > >> Thanks,
        > >> Tim
        > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
        > >> Professor of Anthropology
        > >> Richland College
        > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
        > >> Dallas, TX 75243
        > >>
        > >> 972-238-6959
        > >> tsullivan@...
        > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
        > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
        Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
        generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
        > >>
        > >> Lloyd
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Philip Stein
        There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
           
          Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
           
          Phil
           
           On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:


          From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



           



          I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
          know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
          tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
          honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
          startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

          Deborah

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Lloyd Miller
          Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

          Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
          well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
          evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
          creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
          believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
          Maybe it will come to that.

          Lloyd

          On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

          > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
          presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
          so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
          > >
          > >> Hey Lloyd.
          > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
          constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
          ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
          to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
          ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
          need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
          retire in a few more years.
          > >> Thanks,
          > >> Tim
          > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
          > >> Professor of Anthropology
          > >> Richland College
          > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
          > >> Dallas, TX 75243
          > >>
          > >> 972-238-6959
          > >> tsullivan@...
          > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
          > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
          Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
          generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
          > >>
          > >> Lloyd
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ------------------------------------

          Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lloyd Miller
          My experience has been similar, Phil. I ve found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion—sort of like op ed newspaper
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            My experience has been similar, Phil. I've found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion�sort of like op ed newspaper commentary�than on scientific reasoning based on empirical evidence. However, I've also observed that considerable numbers of people in the "hard" sciences have difficulty applying their scientific methods to social science matters. (A physics colleague used to joke with me that physics was a hard science while anthropology was one of the "soft" sciences. My retort was always that anthropology was instead one of the "difficult" sciences.)

            One of my reservations about the recent push for STEM education (several corporations sponsor attractive TV commercials emphasizing the study of science, technology, engineering and math to meet workforce needs) is that the "difficult," nuanced applications of critical scientific empiricism in the social sciences might get short shrift in funding and curriculum. I believe we particularly need social science K-12 education in order to increase the number of graduates who can make the connections and apply scientific thinking to the human condition and the realities of life on earth.

            Obviously, this is a political as well as an educational matter. It's no accident that many right-wing extremists write off social science education simply as liberal propaganda. The real question for the public to grapple with, I believe, is: Why indeed do so many social science findings concord with liberal political reality? Must be something to that stuff if so many scholars, teachers and students in the social sciences come up with similar conclusions.

            And, sadly, this very reality is a major obstacle to improved education. As a colleague reminded me earlier this morning, it's much more profitable to sell products and political opinions to ignorant people.

            Lloyd


            On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

            > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
            >
            > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
            >
            > Phil
            >
            > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
            > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
            > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
            >
            >
            >
            > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
            > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
            > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
            > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
            > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
            >
            > Deborah
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > Lloyd Miller
            > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
            > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
            >
            > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
            > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
            > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
            > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
            > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
            > Maybe it will come to that.
            >
            > Lloyd
            >
            > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
            >
            > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
            > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
            > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
            > >
            > > Frank
            > >
            > > Sent from my iPhone
            > >
            > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
            > > >
            > > >> Hey Lloyd.
            > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
            > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
            > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
            > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
            > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
            > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
            > retire in a few more years.
            > > >> Thanks,
            > > >> Tim
            > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
            > > >> Professor of Anthropology
            > > >> Richland College
            > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
            > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
            > > >>
            > > >> 972-238-6959
            > > >> tsullivan@...
            > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
            > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
            > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
            > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
            > > >>
            > > >> Lloyd
            > > >>
            > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Anthropmor
            think it is because their governments don t cripple them with debt? Mike Pavlik US to lose it s edge in science and technology. Next time you have an
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
              Mike Pavlik


              US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.





              -----Original Message-----
              From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
              To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




              There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

              Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

              Phil

              On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

              From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



              I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
              know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
              tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
              honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
              startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

              Deborah

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Lloyd Miller
              Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

              Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
              well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
              evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
              creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
              believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
              Maybe it will come to that.

              Lloyd

              On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

              > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
              presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
              so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
              >
              > Frank
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
              > >
              > >> Hey Lloyd.
              > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
              constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
              ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
              to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
              ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
              need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
              retire in a few more years.
              > >> Thanks,
              > >> Tim
              > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
              > >> Professor of Anthropology
              > >> Richland College
              > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
              > >> Dallas, TX 75243
              > >>
              > >> 972-238-6959
              > >> tsullivan@...
              > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
              > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
              Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
              generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
              > >>
              > >> Lloyd
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ------------------------------------

              Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Philip Stein
              Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                 
                Phil

                --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:


                From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                 




                think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                Mike Pavlik

                US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                Phil

                On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                Deborah

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Lloyd Miller
                Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                Maybe it will come to that.

                Lloyd

                On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                >
                > Frank
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                > >
                > >> Hey Lloyd.
                > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                retire in a few more years.
                > >> Thanks,
                > >> Tim
                > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                > >> Professor of Anthropology
                > >> Richland College
                > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                > >>
                > >> 972-238-6959
                > >> tsullivan@...
                > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                > >>
                > >> Lloyd
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Anthropmor
                But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. I need
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.

                  I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                  The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                  Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                  I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                  To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                  Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.

                  Phil

                  --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:

                  From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                  think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                  Mike Pavlik

                  US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                  To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                  There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                  Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                  Phil

                  On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                  From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                  I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                  know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                  tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                  honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                  startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                  Deborah

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Lloyd Miller
                  Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                  Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                  well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                  evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                  creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                  believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                  Maybe it will come to that.

                  Lloyd

                  On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                  > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                  presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                  so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                  >
                  > Frank
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Hey Lloyd.
                  > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                  constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                  ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                  to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                  ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                  need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                  retire in a few more years.
                  > >> Thanks,
                  > >> Tim
                  > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                  > >> Professor of Anthropology
                  > >> Richland College
                  > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                  > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                  > >>
                  > >> 972-238-6959
                  > >> tsullivan@...
                  > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                  > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                  Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                  generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                  > >>
                  > >> Lloyd
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lloyd Miller
                  I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 1, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins and evolution that included biological anth and archaeology, and one on cultural with an ethnographic component. By the late 70s, however, the human origins died (students deemed it simply too difficult--"too technical") and I settled for teaching what I could of those two sub-disciplines in a five-field intro to anthro course. The cultural course survived.

                    Though Phil is right about the decline in math and science education, I'm inclined to believe that higher education in general was becoming too much for increasing numbers of entering community college students. I didn't include any real math in the course, but the details of classification and taxonomy for both biological forms and archaeological finds seemed "just not worth students' efforts." Though I'm a cultural anthropologist, I loved teaching that course, and I feel strongly that the culture and biology of humanity's first 99 plus percent of existence on the planet should be an essential part of an education. And our discipline is the only place students can get it!

                    So I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps America will begin to tackle its educational problems in earnest before you either give up in frustration or retire.

                    Lloyd


                    On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Anthropmor wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.
                    >
                    > I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                    > The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                    > Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                    > I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                    > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                    > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    >
                    > Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                    >
                    > Phil
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM
                    >
                    > think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                    > Mike Pavlik
                    >
                    > US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                    > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                    > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    >
                    > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                    >
                    > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
                    >
                    > Phil
                    >
                    > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                    > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
                    >
                    > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                    > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                    > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                    > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                    > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
                    >
                    > Deborah
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    > Lloyd Miller
                    > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                    > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    >
                    > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                    > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                    > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                    > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                    > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                    > Maybe it will come to that.
                    >
                    > Lloyd
                    >
                    > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
                    >
                    > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                    > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                    > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                    > >
                    > > Frank
                    > >
                    > > Sent from my iPhone
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >> Hey Lloyd.
                    > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                    > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                    > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                    > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                    > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                    > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                    > retire in a few more years.
                    > > >> Thanks,
                    > > >> Tim
                    > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                    > > >> Professor of Anthropology
                    > > >> Richland College
                    > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                    > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                    > > >>
                    > > >> 972-238-6959
                    > > >> tsullivan@...
                    > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                    > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                    > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                    > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Lloyd
                    > > >>
                    > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kaupp, Ann
                    Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think,
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think, and talk about where the country is going or should be going and about the issues facing us.


                      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Stein
                      Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:50 AM
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...



                      There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                      Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                      Phil

                      On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                      From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>>
                      Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                      I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                      know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                      tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                      honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                      startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                      Deborah

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
                      Lloyd Miller
                      Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                      Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                      well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                      evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                      creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                      believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                      Maybe it will come to that.

                      Lloyd

                      On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                      > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                      presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                      so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                      >
                      > Frank
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...<mailto:lloyd.miller%40mchsi.com>> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Hey Lloyd.
                      > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                      constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                      ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                      to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                      ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                      need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                      retire in a few more years.
                      > >> Thanks,
                      > >> Tim
                      > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                      > >> Professor of Anthropology
                      > >> Richland College
                      > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                      > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                      > >>
                      > >> 972-238-6959
                      > >> tsullivan@...<mailto:tsullivan%40dcccd.edu>
                      > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                      > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                      Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                      generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                      > >>
                      > >> Lloyd
                      > >>
                      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------

                      Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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