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Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

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  • kent morris
    cute...
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      cute...
      On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, <dianne.chidester@...> wrote:

      > One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
      > is the difference between science and religion.
      >
      > One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
      > when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
      > students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
      > fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
      > the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)
      >
      > --Dianne
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      > Of Lloyd Miller
      > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
      >
      > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
      > as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
      > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
      > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
      > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
      > "science." Maybe it will come to that.
      >
      > Lloyd
      >
      >
      > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
      >
      >> What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
      > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
      > is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
      >>
      >> Frank
      >>
      >> Sent from my iPhone
      >>
      >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >>> Sure, Tim, here it is.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Hey Lloyd.
      >>>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
      > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
      > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
      > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
      > students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
      > (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
      > and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
      >>>> Thanks,
      >>>> Tim
      >>>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
      >>>> Professor of Anthropology
      >>>> Richland College
      >>>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
      >>>> Dallas, TX 75243
      >>>>
      >>>> 972-238-6959
      >>>> tsullivan@...
      >>>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
      >>>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
      > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
      > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
      > it.
      >>>>
      >>>> Lloyd
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
      > Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Anthropmor
      You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about critical thinking being
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
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        You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about 'critical thinking" being mistaken for "criticizing the life out of an opponent"..And "we" are the opponent.
        One of the staff members of the college found sociology 'too critical of America"... and I have had students try to use the King James Version of the Bible as a source in Anthropology.
        And not for stories, but, for.. like...- a reference on evolution.
        ye gads
        Mike Pavlik




        -----Original Message-----
        From: kent morris <km52@...>
        To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 1:20 pm
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




        cute...
        On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, <dianne.chidester@...> wrote:

        > One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
        > is the difference between science and religion.
        >
        > One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
        > when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
        > students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
        > fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
        > the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)
        >
        > --Dianne
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of Lloyd Miller
        > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
        > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
        >
        > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
        > as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
        > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
        > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
        > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
        > "science." Maybe it will come to that.
        >
        > Lloyd
        >
        >
        > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
        >
        >> What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
        > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
        > is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
        >>
        >> Frank
        >>
        >> Sent from my iPhone
        >>
        >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
        > wrote:
        >>
        >>> Sure, Tim, here it is.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> Hey Lloyd.
        >>>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
        > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
        > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
        > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
        > students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
        > (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
        > and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
        >>>> Thanks,
        >>>> Tim
        >>>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
        >>>> Professor of Anthropology
        >>>> Richland College
        >>>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
        >>>> Dallas, TX 75243
        >>>>
        >>>> 972-238-6959
        >>>> tsullivan@...
        >>>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
        >>>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
        > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
        > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
        > it.
        >>>>
        >>>> Lloyd
        >>>>
        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
        > Links
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deborah Shepherd
        I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, Just so you know, I don t believe in evolution... I would stop them right there and tell them
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
          know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
          tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
          honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
          startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

          Deborah

          -----Original Message-----
          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Lloyd Miller
          Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

          Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
          well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
          evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
          creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
          believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
          Maybe it will come to that.

          Lloyd


          On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

          > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
          presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
          so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
          > >
          > >> Hey Lloyd.
          > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
          constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
          ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
          to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
          ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
          need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
          retire in a few more years.
          > >> Thanks,
          > >> Tim
          > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
          > >> Professor of Anthropology
          > >> Richland College
          > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
          > >> Dallas, TX 75243
          > >>
          > >> 972-238-6959
          > >> tsullivan@...
          > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
          > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
          Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
          generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
          > >>
          > >> Lloyd
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Philip Stein
          There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
             
            Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
             
            Phil
             
             On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:


            From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



             



            I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
            know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
            tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
            honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
            startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

            Deborah

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Lloyd Miller
            Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

            Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
            well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
            evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
            creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
            believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
            Maybe it will come to that.

            Lloyd

            On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

            > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
            presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
            so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
            >
            > Frank
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
            > >
            > >> Hey Lloyd.
            > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
            constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
            ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
            to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
            ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
            need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
            retire in a few more years.
            > >> Thanks,
            > >> Tim
            > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
            > >> Professor of Anthropology
            > >> Richland College
            > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
            > >> Dallas, TX 75243
            > >>
            > >> 972-238-6959
            > >> tsullivan@...
            > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
            > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
            Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
            generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
            > >>
            > >> Lloyd
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            ------------------------------------

            Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lloyd Miller
            My experience has been similar, Phil. I ve found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion—sort of like op ed newspaper
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              My experience has been similar, Phil. I've found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion�sort of like op ed newspaper commentary�than on scientific reasoning based on empirical evidence. However, I've also observed that considerable numbers of people in the "hard" sciences have difficulty applying their scientific methods to social science matters. (A physics colleague used to joke with me that physics was a hard science while anthropology was one of the "soft" sciences. My retort was always that anthropology was instead one of the "difficult" sciences.)

              One of my reservations about the recent push for STEM education (several corporations sponsor attractive TV commercials emphasizing the study of science, technology, engineering and math to meet workforce needs) is that the "difficult," nuanced applications of critical scientific empiricism in the social sciences might get short shrift in funding and curriculum. I believe we particularly need social science K-12 education in order to increase the number of graduates who can make the connections and apply scientific thinking to the human condition and the realities of life on earth.

              Obviously, this is a political as well as an educational matter. It's no accident that many right-wing extremists write off social science education simply as liberal propaganda. The real question for the public to grapple with, I believe, is: Why indeed do so many social science findings concord with liberal political reality? Must be something to that stuff if so many scholars, teachers and students in the social sciences come up with similar conclusions.

              And, sadly, this very reality is a major obstacle to improved education. As a colleague reminded me earlier this morning, it's much more profitable to sell products and political opinions to ignorant people.

              Lloyd


              On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

              > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
              >
              > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
              >
              > Phil
              >
              > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
              > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
              >
              >
              >
              > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
              > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
              > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
              > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
              > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
              >
              > Deborah
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Lloyd Miller
              > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
              >
              > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
              > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
              > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
              > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
              > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
              > Maybe it will come to that.
              >
              > Lloyd
              >
              > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
              >
              > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
              > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
              > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
              > >
              > > Frank
              > >
              > > Sent from my iPhone
              > >
              > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
              > > >
              > > >> Hey Lloyd.
              > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
              > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
              > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
              > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
              > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
              > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
              > retire in a few more years.
              > > >> Thanks,
              > > >> Tim
              > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
              > > >> Professor of Anthropology
              > > >> Richland College
              > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
              > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
              > > >>
              > > >> 972-238-6959
              > > >> tsullivan@...
              > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
              > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
              > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
              > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
              > > >>
              > > >> Lloyd
              > > >>
              > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anthropmor
              think it is because their governments don t cripple them with debt? Mike Pavlik US to lose it s edge in science and technology. Next time you have an
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                Mike Pavlik


                US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.





                -----Original Message-----
                From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                Phil

                On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                Deborah

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Lloyd Miller
                Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                Maybe it will come to that.

                Lloyd

                On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                >
                > Frank
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                > >
                > >> Hey Lloyd.
                > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                retire in a few more years.
                > >> Thanks,
                > >> Tim
                > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                > >> Professor of Anthropology
                > >> Richland College
                > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                > >>
                > >> 972-238-6959
                > >> tsullivan@...
                > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                > >>
                > >> Lloyd
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Philip Stein
                Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                   
                  Phil

                  --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:


                  From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                   




                  think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                  Mike Pavlik

                  US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                  To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                  There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                  Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                  Phil

                  On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                  From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                  I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                  know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                  tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                  honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                  startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                  Deborah

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Lloyd Miller
                  Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                  Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                  well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                  evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                  creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                  believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                  Maybe it will come to that.

                  Lloyd

                  On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                  > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                  presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                  so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                  >
                  > Frank
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Hey Lloyd.
                  > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                  constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                  ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                  to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                  ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                  need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                  retire in a few more years.
                  > >> Thanks,
                  > >> Tim
                  > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                  > >> Professor of Anthropology
                  > >> Richland College
                  > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                  > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                  > >>
                  > >> 972-238-6959
                  > >> tsullivan@...
                  > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                  > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                  Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                  generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                  > >>
                  > >> Lloyd
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Anthropmor
                  But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. I need
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.

                    I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                    The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                    Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                    I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                    To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                    Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.

                    Phil

                    --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:

                    From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                    think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                    Mike Pavlik

                    US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                    To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                    There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                    Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                    Phil

                    On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                    From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                    I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                    know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                    tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                    honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                    startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                    Deborah

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Lloyd Miller
                    Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                    Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                    well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                    evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                    creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                    believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                    Maybe it will come to that.

                    Lloyd

                    On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                    > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                    presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                    so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                    >
                    > Frank
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Hey Lloyd.
                    > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                    constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                    ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                    to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                    ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                    need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                    retire in a few more years.
                    > >> Thanks,
                    > >> Tim
                    > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                    > >> Professor of Anthropology
                    > >> Richland College
                    > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                    > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                    > >>
                    > >> 972-238-6959
                    > >> tsullivan@...
                    > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                    > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                    Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                    generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                    > >>
                    > >> Lloyd
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lloyd Miller
                    I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 1, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins and evolution that included biological anth and archaeology, and one on cultural with an ethnographic component. By the late 70s, however, the human origins died (students deemed it simply too difficult--"too technical") and I settled for teaching what I could of those two sub-disciplines in a five-field intro to anthro course. The cultural course survived.

                      Though Phil is right about the decline in math and science education, I'm inclined to believe that higher education in general was becoming too much for increasing numbers of entering community college students. I didn't include any real math in the course, but the details of classification and taxonomy for both biological forms and archaeological finds seemed "just not worth students' efforts." Though I'm a cultural anthropologist, I loved teaching that course, and I feel strongly that the culture and biology of humanity's first 99 plus percent of existence on the planet should be an essential part of an education. And our discipline is the only place students can get it!

                      So I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps America will begin to tackle its educational problems in earnest before you either give up in frustration or retire.

                      Lloyd


                      On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Anthropmor wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.
                      >
                      > I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                      > The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                      > Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                      > I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                      > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      >
                      > Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >
                      > --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM
                      >
                      > think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                      > Mike Pavlik
                      >
                      > US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                      > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                      > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      >
                      > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                      >
                      > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >
                      > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                      > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
                      >
                      > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                      > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                      > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                      > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                      > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
                      >
                      > Deborah
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      > Lloyd Miller
                      > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      >
                      > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                      > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                      > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                      > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                      > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                      > Maybe it will come to that.
                      >
                      > Lloyd
                      >
                      > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
                      >
                      > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                      > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                      > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                      > >
                      > > Frank
                      > >
                      > > Sent from my iPhone
                      > >
                      > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >> Hey Lloyd.
                      > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                      > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                      > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                      > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                      > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                      > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                      > retire in a few more years.
                      > > >> Thanks,
                      > > >> Tim
                      > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                      > > >> Professor of Anthropology
                      > > >> Richland College
                      > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                      > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                      > > >>
                      > > >> 972-238-6959
                      > > >> tsullivan@...
                      > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                      > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                      > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                      > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Lloyd
                      > > >>
                      > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kaupp, Ann
                      Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think, and talk about where the country is going or should be going and about the issues facing us.


                        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Stein
                        Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:50 AM
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...



                        There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                        Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                        Phil

                        On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                        From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>>
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                        I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                        know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                        tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                        honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                        startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                        Deborah

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
                        Lloyd Miller
                        Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                        Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                        well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                        evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                        creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                        believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                        Maybe it will come to that.

                        Lloyd

                        On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                        > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                        presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                        so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                        >
                        > Frank
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...<mailto:lloyd.miller%40mchsi.com>> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Hey Lloyd.
                        > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                        constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                        ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                        to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                        ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                        need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                        retire in a few more years.
                        > >> Thanks,
                        > >> Tim
                        > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                        > >> Professor of Anthropology
                        > >> Richland College
                        > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                        > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                        > >>
                        > >> 972-238-6959
                        > >> tsullivan@...<mailto:tsullivan%40dcccd.edu>
                        > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                        > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                        Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                        generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                        > >>
                        > >> Lloyd
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

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