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Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

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  • Lloyd Miller
    Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as believing in evolution. This
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
      Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science." Maybe it will come to that.

      Lloyd


      On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

      > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
      >
      > Frank
      >
      > Sent from my iPhone
      >
      > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
      > >
      > >> Hey Lloyd.
      > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
      > >> Thanks,
      > >> Tim
      > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
      > >> Professor of Anthropology
      > >> Richland College
      > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
      > >> Dallas, TX 75243
      > >>
      > >> 972-238-6959
      > >> tsullivan@...
      > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
      > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
      > >>
      > >> Lloyd
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew Petto
      Leaving aside the political comment for a moment ... Part of the problem is that most people associate critical thinking with criticizing positions they do not
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
        Leaving aside the political comment for a moment ...

        Part of the problem is that most people associate critical thinking with
        criticizing positions they do not like (or agree with). They would not
        have a clue as to how to do real critical thinking --- the kind that is
        the foundation of first-rate scholarship, for example.

        The "critical thinking" component of these proposals is the bastard
        child of the former "evidences against" evolution proposals in the 80s
        and 90s. The presumption is that if one could just find some issue or
        item in which evolution did not have an answer (yet), then the whole
        thing would collapse.

        This reflects 2 things: (a) a misunderstanding of science in general and
        evolution in particular; and (2) an approach to biblical interpretation
        that if any of it is not true or erroneous, then none of it can be true.

        So, the idea is for teachers and students to find chinks in the armor
        and criticize evolutionary science so that it will come tumbling down
        ... with the expectation that creationism will be true by default if
        evolution is false.

        Plus ca change ....

        Anj

        On 6/29/2012 12:17, Frank Lagana wrote:
        >
        > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
        > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical
        > thinking is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a
        > republican?
        >
        > Frank
        >
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...
        > <mailto:lloyd.miller%40mchsi.com>> wrote:
        >
        > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
        > >
        > >> Hey Lloyd.
        > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
        > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
        > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
        > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item
        > for students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an
        > excuse (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my
        > patio and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
        > >> Thanks,
        > >> Tim
        > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
        > >> Professor of Anthropology
        > >> Richland College
        > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
        > >> Dallas, TX 75243
        > >>
        > >> 972-238-6959
        > >> tsullivan@... <mailto:tsullivan%40dcccd.edu>
        > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
        > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
        > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
        > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
        > >>
        > >> Lloyd
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >

        --

        Andrew J Petto, PhD
        Senior Lecturer
        Department of Biological Sciences
        University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
        PO Box 413
        Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
        CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
        Telephone: 414-229-6784
        FAX: 414-229-3926
        https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

        Could you be a teacher?
        <https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/Be_a_teacher.mp3>

        *************
        Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
        https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
        *************



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • kent morris
        LOL
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
          LOL
          On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Frank Lagana wrote:

          > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Sure, Tim, here it is.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
          >>
          >>> Hey Lloyd.
          >>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
          >>> Thanks,
          >>> Tim
          >>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
          >>> Professor of Anthropology
          >>> Richland College
          >>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
          >>> Dallas, TX 75243
          >>>
          >>> 972-238-6959
          >>> tsullivan@...
          >>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
          >>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
          >>>
          >>> Lloyd
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • dianne.chidester@gvltec.edu
          One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc) is the difference between science and religion. One of the questions I ask my students
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
            One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
            is the difference between science and religion.

            One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
            when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
            students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
            fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
            the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)

            --Dianne

            -----Original Message-----
            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Lloyd Miller
            Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

            Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
            as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
            evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
            creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
            believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
            "science." Maybe it will come to that.

            Lloyd


            On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

            > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
            always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
            is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
            >
            > Frank
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
            > >
            > >> Hey Lloyd.
            > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
            constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
            of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
            presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
            students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
            (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
            and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
            > >> Thanks,
            > >> Tim
            > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
            > >> Professor of Anthropology
            > >> Richland College
            > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
            > >> Dallas, TX 75243
            > >>
            > >> 972-238-6959
            > >> tsullivan@...
            > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
            > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
            Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
            thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
            it.
            > >>
            > >> Lloyd
            > >>
            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
            Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links




            This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
          • kent morris
            cute...
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
              cute...
              On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, <dianne.chidester@...> wrote:

              > One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
              > is the difference between science and religion.
              >
              > One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
              > when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
              > students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
              > fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
              > the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)
              >
              > --Dianne
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of Lloyd Miller
              > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
              >
              > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
              > as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
              > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
              > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
              > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
              > "science." Maybe it will come to that.
              >
              > Lloyd
              >
              >
              > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
              >
              >> What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
              > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
              > is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
              >>
              >> Frank
              >>
              >> Sent from my iPhone
              >>
              >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
              > wrote:
              >>
              >>> Sure, Tim, here it is.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
              >>>
              >>>> Hey Lloyd.
              >>>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
              > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
              > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
              > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
              > students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
              > (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
              > and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
              >>>> Thanks,
              >>>> Tim
              >>>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
              >>>> Professor of Anthropology
              >>>> Richland College
              >>>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
              >>>> Dallas, TX 75243
              >>>>
              >>>> 972-238-6959
              >>>> tsullivan@...
              >>>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
              >>>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
              > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
              > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
              > it.
              >>>>
              >>>> Lloyd
              >>>>
              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
              > Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Anthropmor
              You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about critical thinking being
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
                You know, I try to do this in a non threatening way, as well- and it still is pissing some of the students off. AP is correect about 'critical thinking" being mistaken for "criticizing the life out of an opponent"..And "we" are the opponent.
                One of the staff members of the college found sociology 'too critical of America"... and I have had students try to use the King James Version of the Bible as a source in Anthropology.
                And not for stories, but, for.. like...- a reference on evolution.
                ye gads
                Mike Pavlik




                -----Original Message-----
                From: kent morris <km52@...>
                To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 1:20 pm
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                cute...
                On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, <dianne.chidester@...> wrote:

                > One of the things I try to teach in all my courses (both anthro & soc)
                > is the difference between science and religion.
                >
                > One of the questions I ask my students is, "What happens to a religion
                > when no one believes in it?" I use the Shakers as an example. The
                > students find the idea of total celibacy as part of religious practice
                > fascinating! Someone usually points out that there are no Shakers in
                > the classroom! (Nor any willing converts!)
                >
                > --Dianne
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of Lloyd Miller
                > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 1:33 PM
                > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                >
                > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media,
                > as well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or
                > "science." Maybe it will come to that.
                >
                > Lloyd
                >
                >
                > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
                >
                >> What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are
                > always presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking
                > is really so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                >>
                >> Frank
                >>
                >> Sent from my iPhone
                >>
                >> On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >>> Sure, Tim, here it is.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                >>>
                >>>> Hey Lloyd.
                >>>> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state
                > of ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for
                > presenting ideas to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for
                > students to read and ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse
                > (well, not that I really need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio
                > and consider options for when I retire in a few more years.
                >>>> Thanks,
                >>>> Tim
                >>>> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                >>>> Professor of Anthropology
                >>>> Richland College
                >>>> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                >>>> Dallas, TX 75243
                >>>>
                >>>> 972-238-6959
                >>>> tsullivan@...
                >>>>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                >>>> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in
                > Nation Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific
                > thinking generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of
                > it.
                >>>>
                >>>> Lloyd
                >>>>
                >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
                > Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Deborah Shepherd
                I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, Just so you know, I don t believe in evolution... I would stop them right there and tell them
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 29, 2012
                  I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                  know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                  tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                  honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                  startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                  Deborah

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Lloyd Miller
                  Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                  Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                  well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                  evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                  creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                  believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                  Maybe it will come to that.

                  Lloyd


                  On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                  > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                  presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                  so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                  >
                  > Frank
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Hey Lloyd.
                  > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                  constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                  ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                  to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                  ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                  need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                  retire in a few more years.
                  > >> Thanks,
                  > >> Tim
                  > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                  > >> Professor of Anthropology
                  > >> Richland College
                  > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                  > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                  > >>
                  > >> 972-238-6959
                  > >> tsullivan@...
                  > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                  > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                  Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                  generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                  > >>
                  > >> Lloyd
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Philip Stein
                  There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                    There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                     
                    Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
                     
                    Phil
                     
                     On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:


                    From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                     



                    I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                    know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                    tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                    honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                    startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                    Deborah

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Lloyd Miller
                    Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                    Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                    well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                    evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                    creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                    believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                    Maybe it will come to that.

                    Lloyd

                    On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                    > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                    presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                    so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                    >
                    > Frank
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Hey Lloyd.
                    > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                    constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                    ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                    to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                    ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                    need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                    retire in a few more years.
                    > >> Thanks,
                    > >> Tim
                    > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                    > >> Professor of Anthropology
                    > >> Richland College
                    > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                    > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                    > >>
                    > >> 972-238-6959
                    > >> tsullivan@...
                    > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                    > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                    Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                    generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                    > >>
                    > >> Lloyd
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------

                    Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lloyd Miller
                    My experience has been similar, Phil. I ve found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion—sort of like op ed newspaper
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                      My experience has been similar, Phil. I've found that people with degrees in English especially seem to rely more on persuasion�sort of like op ed newspaper commentary�than on scientific reasoning based on empirical evidence. However, I've also observed that considerable numbers of people in the "hard" sciences have difficulty applying their scientific methods to social science matters. (A physics colleague used to joke with me that physics was a hard science while anthropology was one of the "soft" sciences. My retort was always that anthropology was instead one of the "difficult" sciences.)

                      One of my reservations about the recent push for STEM education (several corporations sponsor attractive TV commercials emphasizing the study of science, technology, engineering and math to meet workforce needs) is that the "difficult," nuanced applications of critical scientific empiricism in the social sciences might get short shrift in funding and curriculum. I believe we particularly need social science K-12 education in order to increase the number of graduates who can make the connections and apply scientific thinking to the human condition and the realities of life on earth.

                      Obviously, this is a political as well as an educational matter. It's no accident that many right-wing extremists write off social science education simply as liberal propaganda. The real question for the public to grapple with, I believe, is: Why indeed do so many social science findings concord with liberal political reality? Must be something to that stuff if so many scholars, teachers and students in the social sciences come up with similar conclusions.

                      And, sadly, this very reality is a major obstacle to improved education. As a colleague reminded me earlier this morning, it's much more profitable to sell products and political opinions to ignorant people.

                      Lloyd


                      On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                      > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                      >
                      > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >
                      > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                      > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                      > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                      > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                      > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                      > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
                      >
                      > Deborah
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      > Lloyd Miller
                      > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                      >
                      > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                      > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                      > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                      > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                      > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                      > Maybe it will come to that.
                      >
                      > Lloyd
                      >
                      > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
                      >
                      > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                      > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                      > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                      > >
                      > > Frank
                      > >
                      > > Sent from my iPhone
                      > >
                      > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >> Hey Lloyd.
                      > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                      > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                      > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                      > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                      > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                      > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                      > retire in a few more years.
                      > > >> Thanks,
                      > > >> Tim
                      > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                      > > >> Professor of Anthropology
                      > > >> Richland College
                      > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                      > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                      > > >>
                      > > >> 972-238-6959
                      > > >> tsullivan@...
                      > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                      > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                      > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                      > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Lloyd
                      > > >>
                      > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >>
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Anthropmor
                      think it is because their governments don t cripple them with debt? Mike Pavlik US to lose it s edge in science and technology. Next time you have an
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                        think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                        Mike Pavlik


                        US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                        To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                        There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                        Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                        Phil

                        On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                        From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                        I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                        know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                        tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                        honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                        startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                        Deborah

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Lloyd Miller
                        Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                        Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                        well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                        evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                        creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                        believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                        Maybe it will come to that.

                        Lloyd

                        On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                        > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                        presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                        so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                        >
                        > Frank
                        >
                        > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Hey Lloyd.
                        > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                        constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                        ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                        to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                        ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                        need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                        retire in a few more years.
                        > >> Thanks,
                        > >> Tim
                        > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                        > >> Professor of Anthropology
                        > >> Richland College
                        > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                        > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                        > >>
                        > >> 972-238-6959
                        > >> tsullivan@...
                        > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                        > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                        Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                        generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                        > >>
                        > >> Lloyd
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------

                        Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Philip Stein
                        Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                          Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                           
                          Phil

                          --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:


                          From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                           




                          think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                          Mike Pavlik

                          US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                          To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                          There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                          Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                          Phil

                          On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                          From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                          I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                          know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                          tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                          honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                          startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                          Deborah

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Lloyd Miller
                          Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                          Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                          well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                          evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                          creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                          believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                          Maybe it will come to that.

                          Lloyd

                          On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                          > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                          presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                          so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                          >
                          > Frank
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Hey Lloyd.
                          > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                          constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                          ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                          to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                          ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                          need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                          retire in a few more years.
                          > >> Thanks,
                          > >> Tim
                          > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                          > >> Professor of Anthropology
                          > >> Richland College
                          > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                          > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                          > >>
                          > >> 972-238-6959
                          > >> tsullivan@...
                          > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                          > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                          Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                          generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                          > >>
                          > >> Lloyd
                          > >>
                          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Anthropmor
                          But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. I need
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 30, 2012
                            But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.

                            I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                            The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                            Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                            I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                            To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...




                            Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.

                            Phil

                            --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:

                            From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM



                            think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                            Mike Pavlik

                            US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                            To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                            There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                            Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                            Phil

                            On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:

                            From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM

                            I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                            know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                            tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                            honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                            startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                            Deborah

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Lloyd Miller
                            Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                            Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                            well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                            evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                            creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                            believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                            Maybe it will come to that.

                            Lloyd

                            On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                            > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                            presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                            so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                            >
                            > Frank
                            >
                            > Sent from my iPhone
                            >
                            > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Hey Lloyd.
                            > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                            constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                            ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                            to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                            ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                            need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                            retire in a few more years.
                            > >> Thanks,
                            > >> Tim
                            > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                            > >> Professor of Anthropology
                            > >> Richland College
                            > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                            > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                            > >>
                            > >> 972-238-6959
                            > >> tsullivan@...
                            > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                            > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                            Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                            generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                            > >>
                            > >> Lloyd
                            > >>
                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            ------------------------------------

                            Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

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                          • Lloyd Miller
                            I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 1, 2012
                              I empathize with your grumpiness over curriculum difficulties. In the late 60s when I began teaching, I was able to offer both an intro course on human origins and evolution that included biological anth and archaeology, and one on cultural with an ethnographic component. By the late 70s, however, the human origins died (students deemed it simply too difficult--"too technical") and I settled for teaching what I could of those two sub-disciplines in a five-field intro to anthro course. The cultural course survived.

                              Though Phil is right about the decline in math and science education, I'm inclined to believe that higher education in general was becoming too much for increasing numbers of entering community college students. I didn't include any real math in the course, but the details of classification and taxonomy for both biological forms and archaeological finds seemed "just not worth students' efforts." Though I'm a cultural anthropologist, I loved teaching that course, and I feel strongly that the culture and biology of humanity's first 99 plus percent of existence on the planet should be an essential part of an education. And our discipline is the only place students can get it!

                              So I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps America will begin to tackle its educational problems in earnest before you either give up in frustration or retire.

                              Lloyd


                              On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Anthropmor wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12.
                              >
                              > I need to point out that those 2 statements don't necessarily belong together; and every time I hear about the school year, and/or day being longer, I find confliciting data.
                              > The Indians I've talked to agree with education being valued, but the "longer" school day is parents enrolling kids in extra classes...for 1 example.
                              > Also, the value of education is shown by pay and respect- neither one of which is abundant here.
                              > I've had the same probelms teaching Hardy Weinberg- I'm only average at math myself, but Holy Cow! - many people were stymied by it. Except for the 10 percent who were bored... I don't know, I guess I'm grumpy about this because my attempts at starting an Intro to Physical / Hum,an Origins class and an Intro to Archaeology at my current place is being met with resistance
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                              > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17 pm
                              > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                              >
                              > Possibly. But also because education is valued and the school day and school year are longer. Too many of our students are turned off by math and science in K-12. My grandson, who just completed 3rd grade, goes to a very fine public school. They do a very good job in reading, but not so well in math. Someone in education told us that most K-12 teachers are not well versed in math. Last year I heard a speaker refer to a study that the turning point is Algebra 2. Before that age students are facinated with science. At that point in time hoards of students are turned off. I teach physical anthropology, and I used to derive the Hardy-Weinberg equation and do simple problems--very elementary algebra. Now I skip on by.
                              >
                              > Phil
                              >
                              > --- On Sat, 6/30/12, Anthropmor <anthropmor@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Anthropmor <anthropmor@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Saturday, June 30, 2012, 1:25 PM
                              >
                              > think it is because their governments don't cripple them with debt?
                              > Mike Pavlik
                              >
                              > US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Philip Stein <stein39@...>
                              > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:49 am
                              > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                              >
                              > There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.
                              >
                              > Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.
                              >
                              > Phil
                              >
                              > On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...>
                              > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM
                              >
                              > I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                              > know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                              > tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                              > honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                              > startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.
                              >
                              > Deborah
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > Lloyd Miller
                              > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                              > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                              >
                              > Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                              > well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                              > evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                              > creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                              > believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                              > Maybe it will come to that.
                              >
                              > Lloyd
                              >
                              > On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:
                              >
                              > > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                              > presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                              > so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                              > >
                              > > Frank
                              > >
                              > > Sent from my iPhone
                              > >
                              > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >> Hey Lloyd.
                              > > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                              > constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                              > ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                              > to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                              > ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                              > need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                              > retire in a few more years.
                              > > >> Thanks,
                              > > >> Tim
                              > > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                              > > >> Professor of Anthropology
                              > > >> Richland College
                              > > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                              > > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                              > > >>
                              > > >> 972-238-6959
                              > > >> tsullivan@...
                              > > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                              > > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                              > Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                              > generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Lloyd
                              > > >>
                              > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Kaupp, Ann
                              Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think,
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 2, 2012
                                Makes me think of an NPR interview recently in which a Congressman said there is little if any reflection taking place in Congress where members stop, think, and talk about where the country is going or should be going and about the issues facing us.


                                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Stein
                                Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:50 AM
                                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...



                                There is a great deal of lip service given to critical thinking, but in reality there is very little of it in the classroom, except, perhaps, in the sciences. At my college we have very little if any anti-evolution sentiments, at least overtly expressed. Maybe it's the California sunshine. But I'm shocked at the the stuff people accept. And I'm not just talking about students. I belong to a social science discussion group and I am constantly surprise at the lack of understanding of scientic thinking. For example, people with PhDs (outside of the sciences) accept the illogic of the climate change deniers. I'm afraid that the rampent scientific illiteracy in the US will eventually cause the US to lose it's edge in science and technology. Next time you have an opportunity to walk into a research lab, look around. Often the majority of scientists working in these labs have been trained outside of the US.

                                Deborah, you're right on. We're not talking about belief systems. I tell people that it really doesn't matter what you believe, whether it's the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, or the world was created 10,000 years. What is, is! And it doesn't really matter if you choose to belief otherwise as a matter of faith. It really doesn't change reality. And I prefer to operate in reality.

                                Phil

                                On Fri, 6/29/12, Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>> wrote:

                                From: Deborah Shepherd <shephdj@...<mailto:shephdj%40gmail.com>>
                                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...
                                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Friday, June 29, 2012, 5:40 PM



                                I had many students who came to me and said a variation of, "Just so you
                                know, I don't believe in evolution..." I would stop them right there and
                                tell them that there is no "belief" about evolution. It is just a matter of
                                honest and careful observation. I think many of them distrusted me for that
                                startling statement, but it made some of them think a little.

                                Deborah

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
                                Lloyd Miller
                                Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:33 PM
                                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Darwin still losing...

                                Ha, good point, Frank. It also rankles me that so many from the media, as
                                well as some who craft surveys, refer to the issue as "believing in
                                evolution." This phrasing just reinforces the idea that evolution, like
                                creationism, gods, or magic, is just something you either do or do not
                                believe in. No one has yet asked me if I believe in "atoms" or "science."
                                Maybe it will come to that.

                                Lloyd

                                On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Frank Lagana wrote:

                                > What really irritates me is that these anti-evolution proposals are always
                                presented as fostering "critical thinking". If critical thinking is really
                                so important, why on earth would anyone be a republican?
                                >
                                > Frank
                                >
                                > Sent from my iPhone
                                >
                                > On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...<mailto:lloyd.miller%40mchsi.com>> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Sure, Tim, here it is.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Jun 28, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Tim Sullivan wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> Hey Lloyd.
                                > >> Hope your summer is going well. Can you send me that pdf? I am
                                constantly looking for items that will shed light on our current state of
                                ignorance. Sometimes they help me think of 'new angles' for presenting ideas
                                to students, sometimes they simply provide an item for students to read and
                                ponder, and sometimes they simply give me an excuse (well, not that I really
                                need one) to go open a beer, sit on my patio and consider options for when I
                                retire in a few more years.
                                > >> Thanks,
                                > >> Tim
                                > >> Timothy L. Sullivan, Ph.D.
                                > >> Professor of Anthropology
                                > >> Richland College
                                > >> 12800 Abrams Rd.
                                > >> Dallas, TX 75243
                                > >>
                                > >> 972-238-6959
                                > >> tsullivan@...<mailto:tsullivan%40dcccd.edu>
                                > >>>>> Lloyd Miller 06/28/12 11:02 AM >>>
                                > >> If you're on SACC-L and would like the attachment (an essay in Nation
                                Magazine on student ignorance about evolution and scientific thinking
                                generally), email me individually and I'll send you a .pdf of it.
                                > >>
                                > >> Lloyd
                                > >>
                                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                ------------------------------------

                                Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links

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