Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

Expand Messages
  • Patricia Hamlen
    Linda is so right, best wishes to both of you, my SACC buddies! ... From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Linda Light Sent: Sat 2/4/2012 4:14 PM To:
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 4, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Linda is so right, best wishes to both of you, my SACC buddies!

      -----Original Message-----
      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Linda Light
      Sent: Sat 2/4/2012 4:14 PM
      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

      By the way, Mark and Dianne, the SACC-fest this year will be fabulous as always, but its full flavor will be distinctly lacking without the two of you. Can't you see your ways clear to come for at least a day or two? We'll so miss you!
      Linda 

      From: Mark Lewine <mlewine@...>
      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post


       
      Yes, Diane, and as many times as we make this point to the bean-counting CFO/CEO's and their psychophants (new noun) they do not get it because they are "data driven", just ask them...driven to brand a corporate theme ("achieve the dream") citing an 'issue' (low rates of graduation/degree attainment) that bothers the school/college managerial and executive classes who never actually educate anyone. I still honor my start at my community college from creative motivated faculty who both worked and taught as the watershed experience that started me toward achieving a bachelor's, a double master's and a doctorate. I, of course, count in the "data" for the 'data driven' morons, as one of the community college students (two years) who 'failed to graduate and achieve an associate's degree...
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: dianne.chidester@...
      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:25 PM
      Subject: RE: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

      Here I go again! One of the problems I have with this kind of report is how they define success. They usually define it as earning a 2-year degree (for colleges). As I have told many of the administrators in our college, by this definition I am a community college failure. I did not get a degree from the cc but rather matriculated into the 4-year system where I earned my degree.

      This article also makes me think of the discussions about Steve Jobs and how he used "liberal" education to make Apple successful.

      Cheers!

      Dianne

      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthropmor
      Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:44 PM
      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com; Anthro-l@...
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

      this is depressingl;y like so much we have heard- dumbing down of courses, 2 year job oriented tracks with little critical thinking or multi connection making aspects.
      Mike Pavlik

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kaupp, Ann <kauppa@... <mailto:kauppa%40si.edu> >
      To: 'SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:%27SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> ' <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
      Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 2:54 pm
      Subject: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

      Prepared to be practical
      In Canada, many students pursue a two-year degree because what they really want is a good job
      By Jon Marcus, Monday, January 30,12:50 AM

      At the University of Manitoba, Angela Conrad felt it was taking forever to satisfy degree requirements with courses in women's studies, Greek mythology and other subjects she considered impractical.
      [cid:image001.jpg@01CCDF47.591DA990 <mailto:image001.jpg%4001CCDF47.591DA990> ]

      George Brown College in Toronto, like other Canadian community colleges, benefits from students' preparation and their interest in career-oriented education.

      All she really wanted was a job in marketing.

      "It takes people two years, sometimes three years, to finish" Manitoba's mandatory general-studies track, Conrad said. "It made me think there had to be a learning style that was faster and more practical than that."

      Conrad, 23, found one at Toronto's George Brown College, the Canadian equivalent of an American community college, where she transferred after giving up on a four-year university degree in favor of a two-year diploma.

      "This is better," Conrad recounted in the student lounge of the bustling downtown campus one recent day. "The teachers really do hands-on kinds of things." Conrad also has a job while she studies, organizing events for the Hudson's Bay Co. department-store chain.

      Hugely popular for emphasizing practical skills that lead directly to careers, community colleges - most of which simply call themselves colleges, as opposed to universities - get much of the credit for making Canada second in the world in the percentage of young people ages 25 to 34 who hold some sort of postsecondary degree, according to a 2011 report from the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development. More than half of all Canadians have such degrees, and half of those went to community college.

      That's an upside-down version of the American system, in which community colleges - while enrolling nearly half of all undergraduates - are a drag on the nation's higher-education standing. The OECD puts the United States at 16th<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-falls-in-global-ranking-of-young-adults-who-finish-college/2011/08/22/gIQAAsU3OK_story.html> in the world in the percentage of young people with a postsecondary qualification. South Korea ranks first.

      Only one in 10 Americans has finished a community college, compared with more than one in four Canadians. One reason is that students enter U.S. community colleges considerably less prepared. Forty-two percent arrive needing at least one remedial course in math or English, according to the U.S. Department of Education. Most attend part time, and barely 20 percent finish two-year degrees within three years.

      By contrast, Canadian community colleges increasingly attract students who, like Conrad, have given up on universities and transferred, or who already have university degrees. So prevalent has this become that one community college in northwest Toronto, Humber College, now has more graduate business students than any Canadian university. And two-year colleges have become far more nimble than universities, starting new programs in quick reaction to employer demand.

      Scott McAlpine, president of Douglas College in suburban Vancouver, said: "Colleges in Canada are not an inferior good."

      As George Brown student Randy Orenstein put it: While universities teach you how to think, "colleges teach you how to do. There is less philosophical navel-gazing. It does seem to be very much that universities are about the abstract and colleges about practical skills."

      Orenstein, 28, wanted a job in the fast-growing Canadian gaming industry, which is why he transferred to George Brown. Previously, he had enrolled in a visual-arts program at York University in Toronto to study photography and sculpture.

      At York, he said, "I kept wondering, why do I really need to learn theories of city construction when all I want to do is take photographs and make bronzes?"

      George Brown is largely a collection of red-brick former industrial buildings, including one where greeting cards were once printed. The school is in a trendy neighborhood near Toronto's downtown that's home to the Canadian headquarters of Monster.com and Quest software and offices of the French videogame developer Ubisoft and AutoDesk, a 3D software developer that also produces videogames.

      All administrators had to do was look around to realize that there would be demand for a program in gaming. Launched in 2007, the program has grown from 40 students to 350. It opened a facility in the fall with glittering labs on two floors of a new building and tablets at each workstation that let students draw directly onto LCD screens.

      From the start, Orenstein said, "I remember being blown away and incredibly excited that the lecturers were coming in and they weren't talking about theoretical frameworks. They were saying, 'Here's what you're going to paid. Here's what you're going to do. Here's how you're going to get a job.'"

      More than four-fifths of George Brown students get jobs within six months of graduation. Many of those enrolled at George Brown already have a university degree or, like Orenstein, began at a university and transferred.

      "The collective wisdom is, if you want to get a job, going to a college will mean nine times out of 10 you'll be employed in your area of interest six months after graduation," said James Knight, president and chief executive of the Association of Canadian Community Colleges. "Not to be negative about any other form of education, but we've discovered we can do this extremely well."

      Canadian community colleges have other advantages. Students in the country's secondary schools appear to be better prepared for higher education than counterparts elsewhere. Canadian 15-year-olds rank sixth in the world on international tests of reading ability, eighth in science and 10th in math, according to a 2010 OECD report. American students rank 17th, 23rd and 31st, respectively, in those subjects.

      "Unlike in some other countries, for the most part, all students [in Canada] do reasonably well," said Glen Jones, a researcher at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto. "There isn't the notion of low preparedness, which you could argue the American community colleges are set up to address. That's not an issue in Canada."

      Postsecondary study in Canada is comparatively cheap, though prices vary by province. General and vocational colleges in Quebec are free, for example, except for a nominal registration fee. Average undergraduate tuition at community colleges in Ontario is $2,100 a year, and at universities, $5,951, compared with averages of $2,713 and $7,605, respectively, for comparable public institutions in the United States.

      But what's driving the success of Canadian community colleges as much as anything is the idea that lured Angela Conrad to George Brown: When higher education costs so much to provide, it should lead as directly as possible to a job.

      "The last few years have really put this under the microscope, that learning has to lead to something," said Ann Buller, president of Centennial College, on Toronto's outskirts. "The idea of education for education's sake, I love that. I hope that never goes away. But in a world where taxpayers pay and students pay to go here, in the end, I want my graduates to get jobs."

      This story was produced by the Hechinger Report<http://www.hechingerreport.org>, a nonprofit, nonpartisan education news outlet based at Teachers College, Columbia University. Other Hechinger stories in The Post in recent months have explored higher education trends in Japan<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/with-workplace-training-japans-kosen-colleges-bridge-skills-gap/2011/10/03/gIQAF0gmjL_story.html>, India<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-india-a-college-building-boom/2011/12/21/gIQAxl0oUP_story.html> and Great Britain<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/uk-online-university-offers-help-for-us-colleges/2011/12/19/gIQAwcKoHP_story.html <http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/uk-online-university-offers%0d%0a-help-for-us-colleges/2011/12/19/gIQAwcKoHP_story.html> >.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Lewine
      I have not missed a SACC meeting in decades and this one has so much to offer, only a wedding of my only daughter in Austin Texas could keep me away...and it
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I have not missed a SACC meeting in decades and this one has so much to offer, only a wedding of my only daughter in Austin Texas could keep me away...and it actually takes place over the same days as SACC. I will be coming to AAA next November in San Francisco, goddess willing, and hope to see you there...email SACCfest pics please, as I am trying to master my new Droid phone and am not there yet...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Linda Light
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 5:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post



        By the way, Mark and Dianne, the SACC-fest this year will be fabulous as always, but its full flavor will be distinctly lacking without the two of you. Can't you see your ways clear to come for at least a day or two? We'll so miss you!
        Linda

        From: Mark Lewine <mlewine@...>
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:28 PM
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post


        Yes, Diane, and as many times as we make this point to the bean-counting CFO/CEO's and their psychophants (new noun) they do not get it because they are "data driven", just ask them...driven to brand a corporate theme ("achieve the dream") citing an 'issue' (low rates of graduation/degree attainment) that bothers the school/college managerial and executive classes who never actually educate anyone. I still honor my start at my community college from creative motivated faculty who both worked and taught as the watershed experience that started me toward achieving a bachelor's, a double master's and a doctorate. I, of course, count in the "data" for the 'data driven' morons, as one of the community college students (two years) who 'failed to graduate and achieve an associate's degree...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: dianne.chidester@...
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:25 PM
        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

        Here I go again! One of the problems I have with this kind of report is how they define success. They usually define it as earning a 2-year degree (for colleges). As I have told many of the administrators in our college, by this definition I am a community college failure. I did not get a degree from the cc but rather matriculated into the 4-year system where I earned my degree.

        This article also makes me think of the discussions about Steve Jobs and how he used “liberal” education to make Apple successful.

        Cheers!

        Dianne

        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthropmor
        Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:44 PM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com; Anthro-l@...
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

        this is depressingl;y like so much we have heard- dumbing down of courses, 2 year job oriented tracks with little critical thinking or multi connection making aspects.
        Mike Pavlik

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kaupp, Ann <kauppa@... <mailto:kauppa%40si.edu> >
        To: 'SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:%27SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> ' <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
        Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 2:54 pm
        Subject: [SACC-L] community colleges in today's Wash. Post

        Prepared to be practical
        In Canada, many students pursue a two-year degree because what they really want is a good job
        By Jon Marcus, Monday, January 30,12:50 AM

        At the University of Manitoba, Angela Conrad felt it was taking forever to satisfy degree requirements with courses in women's studies, Greek mythology and other subjects she considered impractical.
        [cid:image001.jpg@01CCDF47.591DA990 <mailto:image001.jpg%4001CCDF47.591DA990> ]

        George Brown College in Toronto, like other Canadian community colleges, benefits from students' preparation and their interest in career-oriented education.

        All she really wanted was a job in marketing.

        "It takes people two years, sometimes three years, to finish" Manitoba's mandatory general-studies track, Conrad said. "It made me think there had to be a learning style that was faster and more practical than that."

        Conrad, 23, found one at Toronto's George Brown College, the Canadian equivalent of an American community college, where she transferred after giving up on a four-year university degree in favor of a two-year diploma.

        "This is better," Conrad recounted in the student lounge of the bustling downtown campus one recent day. "The teachers really do hands-on kinds of things." Conrad also has a job while she studies, organizing events for the Hudson's Bay Co. department-store chain.

        Hugely popular for emphasizing practical skills that lead directly to careers, community colleges - most of which simply call themselves colleges, as opposed to universities - get much of the credit for making Canada second in the world in the percentage of young people ages 25 to 34 who hold some sort of postsecondary degree, according to a 2011 report from the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development. More than half of all Canadians have such degrees, and half of those went to community college.

        That's an upside-down version of the American system, in which community colleges - while enrolling nearly half of all undergraduates - are a drag on the nation's higher-education standing. The OECD puts the United States at 16th<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-falls-in-global-ranking-of-young-adults-who-finish-college/2011/08/22/gIQAAsU3OK_story.html> in the world in the percentage of young people with a postsecondary qualification. South Korea ranks first.

        Only one in 10 Americans has finished a community college, compared with more than one in four Canadians. One reason is that students enter U.S. community colleges considerably less prepared. Forty-two percent arrive needing at least one remedial course in math or English, according to the U.S. Department of Education. Most attend part time, and barely 20 percent finish two-year degrees within three years.

        By contrast, Canadian community colleges increasingly attract students who, like Conrad, have given up on universities and transferred, or who already have university degrees. So prevalent has this become that one community college in northwest Toronto, Humber College, now has more graduate business students than any Canadian university. And two-year colleges have become far more nimble than universities, starting new programs in quick reaction to employer demand.

        Scott McAlpine, president of Douglas College in suburban Vancouver, said: "Colleges in Canada are not an inferior good."

        As George Brown student Randy Orenstein put it: While universities teach you how to think, "colleges teach you how to do. There is less philosophical navel-gazing. It does seem to be very much that universities are about the abstract and colleges about practical skills."

        Orenstein, 28, wanted a job in the fast-growing Canadian gaming industry, which is why he transferred to George Brown. Previously, he had enrolled in a visual-arts program at York University in Toronto to study photography and sculpture.

        At York, he said, "I kept wondering, why do I really need to learn theories of city construction when all I want to do is take photographs and make bronzes?"

        George Brown is largely a collection of red-brick former industrial buildings, including one where greeting cards were once printed. The school is in a trendy neighborhood near Toronto's downtown that's home to the Canadian headquarters of Monster.com and Quest software and offices of the French videogame developer Ubisoft and AutoDesk, a 3D software developer that also produces videogames.

        All administrators had to do was look around to realize that there would be demand for a program in gaming. Launched in 2007, the program has grown from 40 students to 350. It opened a facility in the fall with glittering labs on two floors of a new building and tablets at each workstation that let students draw directly onto LCD screens.

        From the start, Orenstein said, "I remember being blown away and incredibly excited that the lecturers were coming in and they weren't talking about theoretical frameworks. They were saying, 'Here's what you're going to paid. Here's what you're going to do. Here's how you're going to get a job.'"

        More than four-fifths of George Brown students get jobs within six months of graduation. Many of those enrolled at George Brown already have a university degree or, like Orenstein, began at a university and transferred.

        "The collective wisdom is, if you want to get a job, going to a college will mean nine times out of 10 you'll be employed in your area of interest six months after graduation," said James Knight, president and chief executive of the Association of Canadian Community Colleges. "Not to be negative about any other form of education, but we've discovered we can do this extremely well."

        Canadian community colleges have other advantages. Students in the country's secondary schools appear to be better prepared for higher education than counterparts elsewhere. Canadian 15-year-olds rank sixth in the world on international tests of reading ability, eighth in science and 10th in math, according to a 2010 OECD report. American students rank 17th, 23rd and 31st, respectively, in those subjects.

        "Unlike in some other countries, for the most part, all students [in Canada] do reasonably well," said Glen Jones, a researcher at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto. "There isn't the notion of low preparedness, which you could argue the American community colleges are set up to address. That's not an issue in Canada."

        Postsecondary study in Canada is comparatively cheap, though prices vary by province. General and vocational colleges in Quebec are free, for example, except for a nominal registration fee. Average undergraduate tuition at community colleges in Ontario is $2,100 a year, and at universities, $5,951, compared with averages of $2,713 and $7,605, respectively, for comparable public institutions in the United States.

        But what's driving the success of Canadian community colleges as much as anything is the idea that lured Angela Conrad to George Brown: When higher education costs so much to provide, it should lead as directly as possible to a job.

        "The last few years have really put this under the microscope, that learning has to lead to something," said Ann Buller, president of Centennial College, on Toronto's outskirts. "The idea of education for education's sake, I love that. I hope that never goes away. But in a world where taxpayers pay and students pay to go here, in the end, I want my graduates to get jobs."

        This story was produced by the Hechinger Report<http://www.hechingerreport.org>, a nonprofit, nonpartisan education news outlet based at Teachers College, Columbia University. Other Hechinger stories in The Post in recent months have explored higher education trends in Japan<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/with-workplace-training-japans-kosen-colleges-bridge-skills-gap/2011/10/03/gIQAF0gmjL_story.html>, India<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-india-a-college-building-boom/2011/12/21/gIQAxl0oUP_story.html> and Great Britain<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/uk-online-university-offers-help-for-us-colleges/2011/12/19/gIQAwcKoHP_story.html <http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/uk-online-university-offers%0d%0a-help-for-us-colleges/2011/12/19/gIQAwcKoHP_story.html> >.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.