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Re: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning

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  • Lloyd Miller
    You re very right, Deborah—yet one more reason, I think, why community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of higher education. Lloyd
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 1, 2011
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      You're very right, Deborah�yet one more reason, I think, why community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of higher education.

      Lloyd


      On Nov 30, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

      > Very good points, Lloyd.
      >
      > Another major problem with the "retention" paradigm is that it punishes
      > community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving students who just
      > want one or a few courses, such as professionals, retirees, and even
      > students from other institutions who need to pick up a particular course
      > that is filled or not scheduled when they need it. Retention is a good
      > measure of success when it is applied to the appropriate student groups, but
      > it is no measure of either institutional or teaching success.
      >
      > Deborah
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > Lloyd Miller
      > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:48 AM
      > To: SACC ListServ
      > Subject: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning
      >
      > Moved by the article on foreign student recruiters I sent recently, I wrote
      > the following letter to the editors of the Des Moines Register. I don't know
      > if they'll publish it; always a toss-up.
      >
      > Lloyd
      >
      > The Register's Associated Press article, "Motives of foreign student
      > recruiters under fire" (11/26/2011), ought to be a warning to those who want
      > teachers' job security to depend on student success. In order to boost
      > college enrollments, international student recruiters are paid by the number
      > of students they recruit. Up to 95% of Chinese students falsify their
      > applications, and many foreign students who do arrive are exempt from
      > language and other required proficiency tests.
      > Does anyone doubt that if teacher pay were based on the number of students
      > who passed their courses, grades would improve and class retention rates
      > would rise? Teachers who maintain academic standards and require that their
      > students "do the work" typically face pressures. College trustees often
      > reward their chief executives for increased enrollments irrespective of
      > academic quality, and administrators serve at the pleasure of their bosses.
      > Many counselors and advisors, whose jobs involve hearing student complaints,
      > come to see themselves as student advocates who must defend their charges
      > against unfair and tyrannical teachers. And finally, many students endlessly
      > lobby their instructors to make passing a course easier for them.
      > Academic tenure and (for Iowa community colleges) continuing contracts are
      > the only protections college teachers have for maintaining their academic
      > integrity. If course enrollment and completion rates replace real learning,
      > teachers will do whatever they can to keep their jobs.
      >
      > Lloyd Miller
      >
      > (Retired community college teacher)
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Muckle
      Regarding student retention.... The system has changed over the past few years, at least in my part of the world. The traditional model of students attending
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 1, 2011
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        Regarding student retention....

        The system has changed over the past few years, at least in my part of
        the world. The traditional model of students attending college and then
        transferring to university no longer holds as the dominant model
        anymore. Retention is also a problem for the big universities. I learned
        this at a meeting I attended a few months ago with representatives of
        anthropology departments at colleges and universities from throughout
        the province and the government bureaucrats who try to keep track of all
        the transfer arrangements. I imagine the same is happening elsewhere.

        Students are much more apt to treat their education as a smorgasbord
        these days. In my area, there are almost the same number of students
        transferring from the research-intensive universities to colleges as the
        reverse. The same is true for the transfers between teaching-intensive
        universities and colleges; and between research-intensive universities
        and teaching-intensive universities.The information is not anecdotal. It
        is real data. The big universities are sometimes in denial (they can't
        imagine why any student would ever leave them), but it is happening.

        Bob

        >>> Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> 12/1/2011 1:22 PM >>>
        You're very right, Deborah—yet one more reason, I think, why
        community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of
        higher education.

        Lloyd


        On Nov 30, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

        > Very good points, Lloyd.
        >
        > Another major problem with the "retention" paradigm is that it
        punishes
        > community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving students
        who just
        > want one or a few courses, such as professionals, retirees, and even
        > students from other institutions who need to pick up a particular
        course
        > that is filled or not scheduled when they need it. Retention is a
        good
        > measure of success when it is applied to the appropriate student
        groups, but
        > it is no measure of either institutional or teaching success.
        >
        > Deborah
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of
        > Lloyd Miller
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:48 AM
        > To: SACC ListServ
        > Subject: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning
        >
        > Moved by the article on foreign student recruiters I sent recently, I
        wrote
        > the following letter to the editors of the Des Moines Register. I
        don't know
        > if they'll publish it; always a toss-up.
        >
        > Lloyd
        >
        > The Register's Associated Press article, "Motives of foreign student
        > recruiters under fire" (11/26/2011), ought to be a warning to those
        who want
        > teachers' job security to depend on student success. In order to
        boost
        > college enrollments, international student recruiters are paid by the
        number
        > of students they recruit. Up to 95% of Chinese students falsify
        their
        > applications, and many foreign students who do arrive are exempt
        from
        > language and other required proficiency tests.
        > Does anyone doubt that if teacher pay were based on the number of
        students
        > who passed their courses, grades would improve and class retention
        rates
        > would rise? Teachers who maintain academic standards and require that
        their
        > students "do the work" typically face pressures. College trustees
        often
        > reward their chief executives for increased enrollments irrespective
        of
        > academic quality, and administrators serve at the pleasure of their
        bosses.
        > Many counselors and advisors, whose jobs involve hearing student
        complaints,
        > come to see themselves as student advocates who must defend their
        charges
        > against unfair and tyrannical teachers. And finally, many students
        endlessly
        > lobby their instructors to make passing a course easier for them.
        > Academic tenure and (for Iowa community colleges) continuing
        contracts are
        > the only protections college teachers have for maintaining their
        academic
        > integrity. If course enrollment and completion rates replace real
        learning,
        > teachers will do whatever they can to keep their jobs.
        >
        > Lloyd Miller
        >
        > (Retired community college teacher)
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
        Links
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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