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RE: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning

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  • Deborah Shepherd
    Very good points, Lloyd. Another major problem with the retention paradigm is that it punishes community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 30, 2011
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      Very good points, Lloyd.

      Another major problem with the "retention" paradigm is that it punishes
      community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving students who just
      want one or a few courses, such as professionals, retirees, and even
      students from other institutions who need to pick up a particular course
      that is filled or not scheduled when they need it. Retention is a good
      measure of success when it is applied to the appropriate student groups, but
      it is no measure of either institutional or teaching success.

      Deborah


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Lloyd Miller
      Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:48 AM
      To: SACC ListServ
      Subject: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning

      Moved by the article on foreign student recruiters I sent recently, I wrote
      the following letter to the editors of the Des Moines Register. I don't know
      if they'll publish it; always a toss-up.

      Lloyd

      The Register's Associated Press article, "Motives of foreign student
      recruiters under fire" (11/26/2011), ought to be a warning to those who want
      teachers' job security to depend on student success. In order to boost
      college enrollments, international student recruiters are paid by the number
      of students they recruit. Up to 95% of Chinese students falsify their
      applications, and many foreign students who do arrive are exempt from
      language and other required proficiency tests.
      Does anyone doubt that if teacher pay were based on the number of students
      who passed their courses, grades would improve and class retention rates
      would rise? Teachers who maintain academic standards and require that their
      students "do the work" typically face pressures. College trustees often
      reward their chief executives for increased enrollments irrespective of
      academic quality, and administrators serve at the pleasure of their bosses.
      Many counselors and advisors, whose jobs involve hearing student complaints,
      come to see themselves as student advocates who must defend their charges
      against unfair and tyrannical teachers. And finally, many students endlessly
      lobby their instructors to make passing a course easier for them.
      Academic tenure and (for Iowa community colleges) continuing contracts are
      the only protections college teachers have for maintaining their academic
      integrity. If course enrollment and completion rates replace real learning,
      teachers will do whatever they can to keep their jobs.

      Lloyd Miller

      (Retired community college teacher)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

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    • Lloyd Miller
      You re very right, Deborah—yet one more reason, I think, why community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of higher education. Lloyd
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 1, 2011
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        You're very right, Deborah�yet one more reason, I think, why community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of higher education.

        Lloyd


        On Nov 30, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

        > Very good points, Lloyd.
        >
        > Another major problem with the "retention" paradigm is that it punishes
        > community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving students who just
        > want one or a few courses, such as professionals, retirees, and even
        > students from other institutions who need to pick up a particular course
        > that is filled or not scheduled when they need it. Retention is a good
        > measure of success when it is applied to the appropriate student groups, but
        > it is no measure of either institutional or teaching success.
        >
        > Deborah
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > Lloyd Miller
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:48 AM
        > To: SACC ListServ
        > Subject: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning
        >
        > Moved by the article on foreign student recruiters I sent recently, I wrote
        > the following letter to the editors of the Des Moines Register. I don't know
        > if they'll publish it; always a toss-up.
        >
        > Lloyd
        >
        > The Register's Associated Press article, "Motives of foreign student
        > recruiters under fire" (11/26/2011), ought to be a warning to those who want
        > teachers' job security to depend on student success. In order to boost
        > college enrollments, international student recruiters are paid by the number
        > of students they recruit. Up to 95% of Chinese students falsify their
        > applications, and many foreign students who do arrive are exempt from
        > language and other required proficiency tests.
        > Does anyone doubt that if teacher pay were based on the number of students
        > who passed their courses, grades would improve and class retention rates
        > would rise? Teachers who maintain academic standards and require that their
        > students "do the work" typically face pressures. College trustees often
        > reward their chief executives for increased enrollments irrespective of
        > academic quality, and administrators serve at the pleasure of their bosses.
        > Many counselors and advisors, whose jobs involve hearing student complaints,
        > come to see themselves as student advocates who must defend their charges
        > against unfair and tyrannical teachers. And finally, many students endlessly
        > lobby their instructors to make passing a course easier for them.
        > Academic tenure and (for Iowa community colleges) continuing contracts are
        > the only protections college teachers have for maintaining their academic
        > integrity. If course enrollment and completion rates replace real learning,
        > teachers will do whatever they can to keep their jobs.
        >
        > Lloyd Miller
        >
        > (Retired community college teacher)
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Muckle
        Regarding student retention.... The system has changed over the past few years, at least in my part of the world. The traditional model of students attending
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Regarding student retention....

          The system has changed over the past few years, at least in my part of
          the world. The traditional model of students attending college and then
          transferring to university no longer holds as the dominant model
          anymore. Retention is also a problem for the big universities. I learned
          this at a meeting I attended a few months ago with representatives of
          anthropology departments at colleges and universities from throughout
          the province and the government bureaucrats who try to keep track of all
          the transfer arrangements. I imagine the same is happening elsewhere.

          Students are much more apt to treat their education as a smorgasbord
          these days. In my area, there are almost the same number of students
          transferring from the research-intensive universities to colleges as the
          reverse. The same is true for the transfers between teaching-intensive
          universities and colleges; and between research-intensive universities
          and teaching-intensive universities.The information is not anecdotal. It
          is real data. The big universities are sometimes in denial (they can't
          imagine why any student would ever leave them), but it is happening.

          Bob

          >>> Lloyd Miller <lloyd.miller@...> 12/1/2011 1:22 PM >>>
          You're very right, Deborah—yet one more reason, I think, why
          community colleges are different and distinct from other institutions of
          higher education.

          Lloyd


          On Nov 30, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

          > Very good points, Lloyd.
          >
          > Another major problem with the "retention" paradigm is that it
          punishes
          > community colleges (such as my former campus) for serving students
          who just
          > want one or a few courses, such as professionals, retirees, and even
          > students from other institutions who need to pick up a particular
          course
          > that is filled or not scheduled when they need it. Retention is a
          good
          > measure of success when it is applied to the appropriate student
          groups, but
          > it is no measure of either institutional or teaching success.
          >
          > Deborah
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of
          > Lloyd Miller
          > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:48 AM
          > To: SACC ListServ
          > Subject: [SACC-L] teacher pay for retention, not learning
          >
          > Moved by the article on foreign student recruiters I sent recently, I
          wrote
          > the following letter to the editors of the Des Moines Register. I
          don't know
          > if they'll publish it; always a toss-up.
          >
          > Lloyd
          >
          > The Register's Associated Press article, "Motives of foreign student
          > recruiters under fire" (11/26/2011), ought to be a warning to those
          who want
          > teachers' job security to depend on student success. In order to
          boost
          > college enrollments, international student recruiters are paid by the
          number
          > of students they recruit. Up to 95% of Chinese students falsify
          their
          > applications, and many foreign students who do arrive are exempt
          from
          > language and other required proficiency tests.
          > Does anyone doubt that if teacher pay were based on the number of
          students
          > who passed their courses, grades would improve and class retention
          rates
          > would rise? Teachers who maintain academic standards and require that
          their
          > students "do the work" typically face pressures. College trustees
          often
          > reward their chief executives for increased enrollments irrespective
          of
          > academic quality, and administrators serve at the pleasure of their
          bosses.
          > Many counselors and advisors, whose jobs involve hearing student
          complaints,
          > come to see themselves as student advocates who must defend their
          charges
          > against unfair and tyrannical teachers. And finally, many students
          endlessly
          > lobby their instructors to make passing a course easier for them.
          > Academic tenure and (for Iowa community colleges) continuing
          contracts are
          > the only protections college teachers have for maintaining their
          academic
          > integrity. If course enrollment and completion rates replace real
          learning,
          > teachers will do whatever they can to keep their jobs.
          >
          > Lloyd Miller
          >
          > (Retired community college teacher)
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups
          Links
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Find out more at our web site http://saccweb.net/ Yahoo! Groups Links
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