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Re: [SACC-L] Sign of things to come?

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  • Anthropmor
    sorry, Anj, my mistake. Mike ;-) THINK? What makes you infer that the THINK? ... From: Andrew Petto To: SACC-L Sent:
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 20, 2010
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      sorry, Anj, my mistake. Mike ;-)

      THINK? What makes you infer that the THINK?








      -----Original Message-----
      From: Andrew Petto <ajpetto@...>
      To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Nov 20, 2010 1:42 pm
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Sign of things to come?




      THINK? What makes you infer that the THINK?

      On 20-Nov-10 13:24, Anthropmor wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > but with the
      > caveat that our students should not suffer in any way. Ha!). The next
      > governor has been floating a plan with 26 furlough days a year
      >
      > how do these clowns think this is attractive or positive or good for
      > socirety in any way?
      > Mike Pavlik
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Andrew Petto <ajpetto@... <mailto:ajpetto%40uwm.edu>>;
      > To: SACC-L <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>>;
      > Sent: Sat, Nov 20, 2010 11:39 am
      > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Sign of things to come?
      >
      > Yes, and the UW systems are waiting for the other shoe to drop (16
      > 4-year campuses and 16 2-year campuses). Now that we have a new governor
      > who was voted in on the promise of more jobs (and then promptly canceled
      > the high-speed rail project which cost 1500 jobs before he even takes
      > office -- you're welcome Illinois and New York), we know that the system
      > budgets will be cut.
      >
      > There is a contingent that favors school-to-work type education; our
      > soon-to-be-former governor reversed that and supported general, liberal
      > arts education as something that benefited the populace more in the long
      > run. Therefore, we should see a boost in the technical college system,
      > since those courses are more oriented to specific careers and because
      > their districts have independent taxing authority. We are already taking
      > 6-8 furlough days a year (no pay, and supposedly no work, but with the
      > caveat that our students should not suffer in any way. Ha!). The next
      > governor has been floating a plan with 26 furlough days a year
      > (basically, 1 day every 2 weeks, which works well for the people who get
      > paid on the 1st and 15th of the month and who work 12 months each year).
      > We do not know how this will work for instructional folks (that is, we
      > do not know how it will be implemented; we know how it will work: we
      > will still grade paper and prepare classes, but not get paid for it).
      >
      > So far, we have not seen whole programs be cut, but I will bet that any
      > programs that cannot show "relevance" to the state's economy (in a very
      > direct way) will be suffering more. We are in luck in our department;
      > the 3 main things we do ---- biotech, water resources, and foundational
      > courses for nurses and health professionals --- are things that the new
      > gummint likes a lot. We shall see about the rest.
      >
      > Anj
      >
      > On 20-Nov-10 11:23, Lloyd Miller wrote:
      > > That's sad, Brian. I read this week that the Univ of Iowa is also
      > discontinuing six programs---I think one or two are masters degrees in
      > foreign languages.
      > > Lloyd
      > >
      > >
      > > On Nov 19, 2010, at 7:15 PM, bdlqvcc wrote:
      > >
      > >> Today I received an email from the college where I did my undergrad
      > work in the 1970's. I thought it was going to be an alumni newsletter
      > or an appeal for a capital project. Instead it was a message from
      > their president explaining that in order to close a multi-million
      > dollar deficit under NY State's current budget crisis they have to cut
      > 9 (retired) faculty lines, lay off at least 45 non-teaching staff, and
      > discontinue three programs (including computer science, a fine arts
      > program, and communications disorder program). This last program was
      > one that was very prominent when I had attended this SUNY campus.
      > >>
      > >> I wonder how many other colleges and universities will be making
      > such tough choices in the months ahead? This college I am referring to
      > is a very highly rated State of New York institution that has had no
      > problem attracting qualified students. It is going to be an
      > interesting year ahead!
      > >>
      > >> Brian
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Find out more at our web page
      > :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      >
      > -----------------------------
      > Andrew J Petto, PhD
      > Senior Lecturer
      > Department of Biological Sciences
      > University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
      > PO Box 413
      > Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
      > CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
      > Telephone: 414-229-6784
      > FAX: 414-229-3926
      > https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm
      >
      > *************
      > Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
      > https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
      > *************
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      --

      -----------------------------
      Andrew J Petto, PhD
      Senior Lecturer
      Department of Biological Sciences
      University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
      PO Box 413
      Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
      CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
      Telephone: 414-229-6784
      FAX: 414-229-3926
      https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

      *************
      Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
      https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
      *************

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    • Andrew Petto
      And the 1930s before that. My undergraduate college, a fiercely non-technical liberal arts school in New England even went in for a forestry school in the 30s.
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 20, 2010
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        And the 1930s before that. My undergraduate college, a fiercely
        non-technical liberal arts school in New England even went in for a
        forestry school in the 30s.

        I agree that technical colleges are much better at this (I started my
        anatomy teaching career in a technical college for undertakers -- oops!
        Morticians!). Problem is that a lot of people do not know what a
        university is, really, or how the different higher ed options are
        supposed to interrelate.

        My only concerns are these:
        1. Even in the tech/community colleges (and I have taught in both)
        students need at least SOME courses that help them exercise higher-order
        cognitive activity -- planning, analysing, evaluating, and so on. I see
        lots of courses that do that in our tech college system, but I do not
        see them as highly valued (by students or the community). Maybe the
        fault is not in our stars, but in ourselves!
        2. A person who is too narrowly trained in a particular skill runs the
        risk of becoming obsolete (and unemployed) if his/her training is what a
        Korean friend of ours calls "One-way going!". This often happens, for
        example, in military settings where someone learns enough to do what the
        service needs doing. the problem is not that the person cannot learn new
        things (or even that the military will not teach them), it is that the
        learner never gets a peek at the coherent whole that ties it all
        together, so we want to be sure that our colleges (at all levels) keep
        doing this.
        3. Often the people who know the skills best and teach them --- former
        or current tradespeople --- do not see or value this bigger picture.
        Every so often one breaks out, but it is rare in my experience. Of
        course, these people are valuable, but they represent one piece of the
        picture. I see this whenever I take a short course at the tech college
        for upgraded software or some such thing. The focus is narrow and it is
        about accomplishing a task, not about a general problem-solving strategy
        within a field. I think both need to be included --- the balance is the
        trick, ain'a?

        Off the soapbox.

        Anj

        On 20-Nov-10 12:44, Lloyd Miller wrote:
        > Anj,
        >
        > This sounds a lot like a new chapter of the "career and vocational education" book of the late 1960s and 1970s that helped launch community colleges. The basic philosophy behind it that Sydney Marland (Commissioner of the now-defunct Dept of Education) promoted was that most students didn't need a liberal arts education. They needed to get skills in order to get jobs. Des Moines Area Community College's Arts and Sciences Division remained under-funded and played "second fiddle" to vocational education at the college for many years, even though liberal arts enrollments came to exceed all others.
        >
        > I don't see a repeat of this on the horizon, though, if only because most of the jobs today require the kind of education that the liberal arts has to offer. Personally, I'm a bit dismayed that universities may be getting into this game. Though long suffering from lower status in the academic world (occasionally referred to as "high schools with ashtrays"), we community colleges have maintained a niche for ourselves in providing "general" (liberal arts) education as support for "practical" programs that were preparing students for the job market. Now that community colleges have come into their own and are accepted---even prized in some cases---by the public, and our kind of education is seen as needed, we may lose our exclusive niche.
        >
        > But this is just a selfish musing, not to be taken seriously.
        >
        > Lloyd
        >
        >
        > On Nov 20, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Andrew Petto wrote:
        >
        >> There is a contingent that favors school-to-work type education; our
        >> soon-to-be-former governor reversed that and supported general, liberal
        >> arts education as something that benefited the populace more in the long
        >> run. Therefore, we should see a boost in the technical college system,
        >> since those courses are more oriented to specific careers and because
        >> their districts have independent taxing authority.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --

        -----------------------------
        Andrew J Petto, PhD
        Senior Lecturer
        Department of Biological Sciences
        University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
        PO Box 413
        Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
        CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
        Telephone: 414-229-6784
        FAX: 414-229-3926
        https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

        *************
        Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
        https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
        *************



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