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Re: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

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  • Lloyd Miller
    Yes, I think you nailed it, Deborah. It s a good insight into the entitlement mentality that (so I ve heard) pervades much student thinking nowadays. But
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 12, 2010
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      Yes, I think you nailed it, Deborah. It's a good insight into the "entitlement" mentality that (so I've heard) pervades much student thinking nowadays. But what are the odds of improving things?

      A canon of enculturation theory is that much youth behavior reflects adult behavior; the kids copy the grownups. When we discussed this in class, I typically asked students this series of questions: "Is a crime something that is against the law?" (Unanimous answer: "yes.") "Is speeding against the law?" ("yes.") "Then is speeding a crime?" (A moment's hesitation, then "no."). In the ensuing discussion, students insisted that everyone speeds, and certainly not everyone is a criminal, therefore speeding was more like a game of change. In fact, most people who speed don't get caught most of the time. Those who do, well, they pay a fine, but of course they live to speed another day.

      Like speeding, "cheating" is viewed as neither heinous nor serious. As Phil pointed out (and I had no idea that this was the case, Phil), California prohibits any penalty more severe than flunking a student for the specific activity in which he or she cheated. So it's no worse that sleeping in and blowing off an exam. You can always make it up. (To this "adult" behavior we could also ad all the "news of the day"�corporate CEOs, defense contractors, Wall St. brokers, bankers�etc.)

      My heart went out to the USF business professor; I've been there. Sadly, however, the student comments on the video suggest that a four-hour course in ethics will not likely change things around.

      Lloyd


      On Nov 11, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

      > Doesn't their argument all boil down to, "If the professor uses standard questions that we can get our hands on, then it isn't our fault"?
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fulara, Elise [fulara@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:12 PM
      > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
      >
      > Did you see the "response video" from the accused students?
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJG7aCQtI8E&feature=related
      >
      > ___
      >
      > - Elise Fulara
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deborah Shepherd [deborah.shepherd@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:53 PM
      > To: sacc-l@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [SACC-L] Cheating
      >
      > One of our faculty sent this information around. The first video is only 3:10 minutes.
      > ____________________________
      >
      > http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/students-busted-for-cheating-22954742
      >
      > Listen to the second interviewed student. Here's the full video of the professor addressing his class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJTTDO9f4
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George Thomas
      All incredibly interesting. I found this on YahooNews, and wondered when SACC-L would pick it up.  Will have to view the student response. The second
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 12, 2010
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        All incredibly interesting. I found this on YahooNews, and wondered when SACC-L would pick it up.  Will have to view the student response.
        The second interviewee in the original YouTube item provided the clearest response from the "who cares" school of thought. His attitude matched that of students and PARENTS interviewed for last Summer's NY Times article on modern net-era attitudes toward plagiarism.  (I'll see if I can attach a copy if anyone wants).  I distribute that article to all my classes now, and have discontinued assigning essays because all the stuff involving some old-guy preaching about intellectual honesty and why we bother to publish things in the first place, appears to fall on unresponsive ears.  If it's on the net it must be free, so copy away, seems to be the current currency.
        One of my students from last year is STILL hitting on the administration to find out where they hid a fictitious change-of-grade form for him.  He was one of 2 students who plagiarized, one directly from the textbook, and the other directly from a class handout I had written.  You read that correctly:  I HAD WRITTEN.  He was passing my writing off as his essay, and still expects a grade change.  (I believe he's also the one who told me that he "has family," and they'll come by to talk to me).
        Luckily I have admin backing.
        Interesting how attitudes seem somewhat similar in prison college programs and "normal" ones.
        Cynicism enters academia from all sides of late.  The shame of it is that may such students are truly smart, and would under other circumstances be quite able.
        George Thomas
         
         
        Re: Cheating
            Posted by: "Bob Muckle" bmuckle@... canadianarchaeologist
            Date: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:26 pm ((PST))

        Deborah,

        Thanks for posting the video on cheating.

        I had a similar circumstance, but on a much, much smaller scale than that discussed in the video.  I took a similar approach (trying to get the cheaters to self-identify).

        In my case, I had identified four cases of probable cheating and put it to the class of about 30 students for the cheaters to  self-identify within 24 hours and only fail the assignment  (worth 30% of the course grade), with the alternative of failing the entire course.

        I had a 150% success rate. All four who I suspected of cheating admitted it, as well as two who I had not suspected.

        Bob

        >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...> 11/11/10 10:55 AM >>>
        One of our faculty sent this information around. The first video is only 3:10 minutes.
        ____________________________

        http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/students-busted-for-cheating-22954742

        Listen to the second interviewed student. Here's the full video of the professor addressing his class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJTTDO9f4








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deborah Shepherd
        Not much chance of improving things! Students learn this attitude and behavior from the culture. I just heard in the radio that Bush 43 has now been accused of
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 12, 2010
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          Not much chance of improving things! Students learn this attitude and behavior from the culture. I just heard in the radio that Bush 43 has now been accused of putting entire passages from other books into his new memoir. Maybe it was just his ghostwriter's fault.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd Miller
          Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 10:23 AM
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

          Yes, I think you nailed it, Deborah. It's a good insight into the "entitlement" mentality that (so I've heard) pervades much student thinking nowadays. But what are the odds of improving things?

          A canon of enculturation theory is that much youth behavior reflects adult behavior; the kids copy the grownups. When we discussed this in class, I typically asked students this series of questions: "Is a crime something that is against the law?" (Unanimous answer: "yes.") "Is speeding against the law?" ("yes.") "Then is speeding a crime?" (A moment's hesitation, then "no."). In the ensuing discussion, students insisted that everyone speeds, and certainly not everyone is a criminal, therefore speeding was more like a game of change. In fact, most people who speed don't get caught most of the time. Those who do, well, they pay a fine, but of course they live to speed another day.

          Like speeding, "cheating" is viewed as neither heinous nor serious. As Phil pointed out (and I had no idea that this was the case, Phil), California prohibits any penalty more severe than flunking a student for the specific activity in which he or she cheated. So it's no worse that sleeping in and blowing off an exam. You can always make it up. (To this "adult" behavior we could also ad all the "news of the day"-corporate CEOs, defense contractors, Wall St. brokers, bankers-etc.)

          My heart went out to the USF business professor; I've been there. Sadly, however, the student comments on the video suggest that a four-hour course in ethics will not likely change things around.

          Lloyd


          On Nov 11, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

          > Doesn't their argument all boil down to, "If the professor uses standard questions that we can get our hands on, then it isn't our fault"?
          >
          > ________________________________________
          > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fulara, Elise [fulara@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:12 PM
          > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
          >
          > Did you see the "response video" from the accused students?
          >
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJG7aCQtI8E&feature=related
          >
          > ___
          >
          > - Elise Fulara
          >
          > ________________________________________
          > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deborah Shepherd [deborah.shepherd@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:53 PM
          > To: sacc-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [SACC-L] Cheating
          >
          > One of our faculty sent this information around. The first video is only 3:10 minutes.
          > ____________________________
          >
          > http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/students-busted-for-cheating-22954742
          >
          > Listen to the second interviewed student. Here's the full video of the professor addressing his class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJTTDO9f4
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Deborah Shepherd
          Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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            Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.

            Deb


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob Muckle
            Did anyone see the article in a recent Chronicle of Higher Ed , supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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              Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed', supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

              Bob

              >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...> 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
              Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.

              Deb


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dianne.chidester@gvltec.edu
              We ve had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem with online
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                We've had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In
                spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem
                with online than it is for face-to-face. I think if a parent shows up
                for each face-to-face class for the student, there are some other
                issues! -- Dianne



                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Bob Muckle
                Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:03 AM
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating





                Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of
                students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken
                on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                Bob

                >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> > 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days.
                My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights
                are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all
                obvious.

                Deb

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nikki Ives
                We are looking at this right now at our school. The eLearing office is exploring ways to verify the identity of online students. One question that has been
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                  We are looking at this right now at our school. The eLearing office is exploring
                  ways to verify the identity of online students. One question that has been asked
                  is - do we ask for picture ID in face-to-face classes to verify the person who
                  claims to be the person on the roster really is that person?


                  I'm curious - does anyone do this? I don't. I call out their names at the
                  beginning of the semester and if they say "here" I take their word for it.


                  I remember when I was in college some of my professors would ask for picture ID
                  for exams - but that was only in the big lecture halls with more than 100
                  students. And it was only for exams - not other assignments. We don't have
                  classes that size here. I think students have to show ID in the testing center
                  if a professor wants them to take their exams there - but in the classroom, we
                  don't have any policy or practice that verifies identity.


                  How would you know if the person sitting there is actually the student they say
                  they are or if they are someone else? If the person who calls out "here" on the
                  first day of class keeps coming back, I assume they are who they say they are -
                  but it could be someone else. *Head explode!*

                  Nikki







                  ________________________________
                  From: "dianne.chidester@..." <dianne.chidester@...>
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 11:09:46 AM
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating


                  We've had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In
                  spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem
                  with online than it is for face-to-face. I think if a parent shows up
                  for each face-to-face class for the student, there are some other
                  issues! -- Dianne

                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Bob Muckle
                  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:03 AM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                  Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                  supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of
                  students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken
                  on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                  Bob

                  >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                  <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> > 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                  Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days.
                  My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                  guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights
                  are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all
                  obvious.

                  Deb

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)
                  and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
                  review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
                  intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all
                  copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this
                  mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bob Muckle
                  Starting a few weeks ago, our class lists now come with a photo of the student (presumably the same one taken for their student card). Bob ... We are looking
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                    Starting a few weeks ago, our class lists now come with a photo of the student (presumably the same one taken for their student card).

                    Bob

                    >>> Nikki Ives <ikkinh@...> 11/15/2010 8:25 AM >>>
                    We are looking at this right now at our school. The eLearing office is exploring
                    ways to verify the identity of online students. One question that has been asked
                    is - do we ask for picture ID in face-to-face classes to verify the person who
                    claims to be the person on the roster really is that person?


                    I'm curious - does anyone do this? I don't. I call out their names at the
                    beginning of the semester and if they say "here" I take their word for it.


                    I remember when I was in college some of my professors would ask for picture ID
                    for exams - but that was only in the big lecture halls with more than 100
                    students. And it was only for exams - not other assignments. We don't have
                    classes that size here. I think students have to show ID in the testing center
                    if a professor wants them to take their exams there - but in the classroom, we
                    don't have any policy or practice that verifies identity.


                    How would you know if the person sitting there is actually the student they say
                    they are or if they are someone else? If the person who calls out "here" on the
                    first day of class keeps coming back, I assume they are who they say they are -
                    but it could be someone else. *Head explode!*

                    Nikki







                    ________________________________
                    From: "dianne.chidester@..." <dianne.chidester@...>
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 11:09:46 AM
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating


                    We've had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In
                    spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem
                    with online than it is for face-to-face. I think if a parent shows up
                    for each face-to-face class for the student, there are some other
                    issues! -- Dianne

                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Bob Muckle
                    Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:03 AM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                    Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                    supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of
                    students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken
                    on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                    Bob

                    >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                    <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> > 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                    Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days.
                    My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                    guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights
                    are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all
                    obvious.

                    Deb

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)
                    and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
                    review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
                    intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all
                    copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this
                    mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Philip Stein
                    I m retired, but teaching an online and an in-person class. This Fall I decided to check IDs in my in-person class. During our August department meeting
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                      I'm retired, but teaching an online and an in-person class. This Fall I decided to check IDs in my in-person class. During our August department meeting someone asked me how I know that the student taking an online class is really the student enrolled. I asked how they knew the student sitting in class is the student enrolled. So I decided to check IDs.
                       
                      I had all students fill out a simple form I made up. This way I got a signature to keep on file. Instead of calling roll, they came up to give me their form and show me a picture ID. (There were 50 in the class.) It worked fine. I did not catch anyone, but I assume that anyone with something to hide would have left. I also have them sign their exams that I can compare withtheir signature "on file." I really don't do this routinely, but the act of going through this process sends a message to the students that I mean business. I lot of it is pure theatre. I go through a routine with exams with numbering and signatures and I walk around during the exam like I mean business. I never catch anyone. I don't know if it's because I don't see it (a distinct possibility) or they think that I really do watch them like a hawk. It sets a serious tone, which is essential. Then I can relax. 

                      --- On Mon, 11/15/10, Nikki Ives <ikkinh@...> wrote:


                      From: Nikki Ives <ikkinh@...>
                      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 8:25 AM


                       



                      We are looking at this right now at our school. The eLearing office is exploring
                      ways to verify the identity of online students. One question that has been asked
                      is - do we ask for picture ID in face-to-face classes to verify the person who
                      claims to be the person on the roster really is that person?

                      I'm curious - does anyone do this? I don't. I call out their names at the
                      beginning of the semester and if they say "here" I take their word for it.

                      I remember when I was in college some of my professors would ask for picture ID
                      for exams - but that was only in the big lecture halls with more than 100
                      students. And it was only for exams - not other assignments. We don't have
                      classes that size here. I think students have to show ID in the testing center
                      if a professor wants them to take their exams there - but in the classroom, we
                      don't have any policy or practice that verifies identity.

                      How would you know if the person sitting there is actually the student they say
                      they are or if they are someone else? If the person who calls out "here" on the
                      first day of class keeps coming back, I assume they are who they say they are -
                      but it could be someone else. *Head explode!*

                      Nikki

                      ________________________________
                      From: "dianne.chidester@..." <dianne.chidester@...>
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 11:09:46 AM
                      Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                      We've had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In
                      spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem
                      with online than it is for face-to-face. I think if a parent shows up
                      for each face-to-face class for the student, there are some other
                      issues! -- Dianne

                      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Bob Muckle
                      Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:03 AM
                      To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                      Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                      supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of
                      students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken
                      on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                      Bob

                      >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                      <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> > 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                      Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days.
                      My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                      guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights
                      are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all
                      obvious.

                      Deb

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)
                      and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
                      review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
                      intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all
                      copies of the original message. To the best of our ability and knowledge, this
                      mail message has been scanned and is free of viruses and malware.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Philip Stein
                      There have been many cases where people have taken in-person classes for others for a fee. They re very hard to catch. ... From: Bob Muckle
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                        There have been many cases where people have taken in-person classes for others for a fee. They're very hard to catch.

                        --- On Mon, 11/15/10, Bob Muckle <bmuckle@...> wrote:


                        From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@...>
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                        To: "SACC-L@yahoogroups.com" <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 8:03 AM


                         



                        Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed', supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                        Bob

                        >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...> 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                        Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.

                        Deb

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lewine, Mark
                        I have asked for identification technology if we plan on continuing to do elearning, and was told that we were “investigating” iris and fingerprint
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
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                          I have asked for identification technology if we plan on continuing to do elearning, and was told that we were “investigating” iris and fingerprint technology…still no word…also need to have user-friendly tutorials that students would have to ‘pass’ before registering for e-classes… these two areas. Identification for at least exams and tutorials on how to use the elearning system are the two most asked for items.



                          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikki Ives
                          Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:25 AM
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating





                          We are looking at this right now at our school. The eLearing office is exploring
                          ways to verify the identity of online students. One question that has been asked
                          is - do we ask for picture ID in face-to-face classes to verify the person who
                          claims to be the person on the roster really is that person?

                          I'm curious - does anyone do this? I don't. I call out their names at the
                          beginning of the semester and if they say "here" I take their word for it.

                          I remember when I was in college some of my professors would ask for picture ID
                          for exams - but that was only in the big lecture halls with more than 100
                          students. And it was only for exams - not other assignments. We don't have
                          classes that size here. I think students have to show ID in the testing center
                          if a professor wants them to take their exams there - but in the classroom, we
                          don't have any policy or practice that verifies identity.

                          How would you know if the person sitting there is actually the student they say
                          they are or if they are someone else? If the person who calls out "here" on the
                          first day of class keeps coming back, I assume they are who they say they are -
                          but it could be someone else. *Head explode!*

                          Nikki

                          ________________________________
                          From: "dianne.chidester@... <mailto:dianne.chidester%40gvltec.edu> " <dianne.chidester@... <mailto:dianne.chidester%40gvltec.edu> >
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 11:09:46 AM
                          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                          We've had a case of a parent taking the on-line class for a student. In
                          spite of this, we keep being told that cheating is no more of a problem
                          with online than it is for face-to-face. I think if a parent shows up
                          for each face-to-face class for the student, there are some other
                          issues! -- Dianne

                          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                          Of Bob Muckle
                          Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:03 AM
                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                          Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                          supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of
                          students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken
                          on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                          Bob

                          >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@... <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
                          <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> > 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                          Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days.
                          My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                          guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights
                          are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all
                          obvious.

                          Deb

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                        • Deborah Shepherd
                          Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the link around campus. http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/ What is really
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the link around campus.

                            http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/

                            What is really obvious is that students who depend on these services to graduate had better have some actual skills, or they won't be able to keep a job once they get one.

                            ________________________________
                            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Muckle [bmuckle@...]
                            Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 AM
                            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating



                            Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed', supposedly written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real student's behalf as well.

                            Bob

                            >>> Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...<mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>> 11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                            Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.

                            Deb

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mep1mep
                            This article really offends me.  He seems to be trying to foist some of the blame for his own heinous behavior off on educators.  Of course we wonder how
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              This article really offends me.  He seems to be trying to foist some of the
                              blame for his own heinous behavior off on educators.  Of course we wonder how
                              seemingly illiterate students can produce stellar written work.  And we try like
                              hell to trace it down.  How about if you don't write the papers for them,
                              doofus?

                              That said, one of our counselors who has a good rapport with students told me
                              that he commonly gets told that parents are taking online courses for their
                              kids.  I, also, know of cases when wives have taken them for husbands (and I
                              assume vice/versa).  Hate to sound old-fashioned but in the end they will be
                              cheating themselves.  Sad.  I wish there were some solution.
                              ________________________________
                              From: Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...>
                              To: "SACC-L@yahoogroups.com" <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 3:49:50 PM
                              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                              Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the link around
                              campus.

                              http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/

                              What is really obvious is that students who depend on these services to graduate
                              had better have some actual skills, or they won't be able to keep a job once
                              they get one.

                              ________________________________
                              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Muckle
                              [bmuckle@...]
                              Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 AM
                              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating



                              Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed', supposedly
                              written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I
                              recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real student's
                              behalf as well.

                              Bob

                              >>> Deborah Shepherd
                              >>><deborah.shepherd@...<mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                              >>>11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                              Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My
                              school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for
                              defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal
                              with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.

                              Deb

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups
                              Links






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andrew Petto
                              Well, it is spitting into a hurricane, but here is what I do: 1. Students get a detailed document that they must sign and upload to the course web site. Until
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 15, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Well, it is spitting into a hurricane, but here is what I do:
                                1. Students get a detailed document that they must sign and upload to
                                the course web site. Until it is uploaded, the drop boxes for submitting
                                assignments are not available to them.
                                2. As a part of that document, they must go to this site ...
                                https://www.indiana.edu/~tedfrick/plagiarism/
                                and complete the tutorial and then pass the quiz.
                                3. Passing the quiz issues a certificate, which they must also upload;
                                this is the second key to the dropboxes.

                                I am not so naive as to think this will prevent students from cheating.
                                However, this is a CMA action. When I discover a suspicious document,
                                there is no way that a student can claim "I didn't know this wasn't
                                allowed; and so on"

                                As of right now, we have 6 suspicious papers in the first written
                                assignment. 4 of those are definitely going down --- it is that cut and
                                dry.

                                Enjoy.

                                Anj

                                PS. I discovered when I took the quiz that I was being way too lenient
                                on close paraphrasing.




                                On 15-Nov-10 21:20, mep1mep wrote:
                                >
                                > This article really offends me. He seems to be trying to foist some
                                > of the
                                > blame for his own heinous behavior off on educators. Of course we
                                > wonder how
                                > seemingly illiterate students can produce stellar written work. And
                                > we try like
                                > hell to trace it down. How about if you don't write the papers for them,
                                > doofus?
                                >
                                > That said, one of our counselors who has a good rapport with students
                                > told me
                                > that he commonly gets told that parents are taking online courses for
                                > their
                                > kids. I, also, know of cases when wives have taken them for husbands
                                > (and I
                                > assume vice/versa). Hate to sound old-fashioned but in the end they
                                > will be
                                > cheating themselves. Sad. I wish there were some solution.
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                                > <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                                > To: "SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>"
                                > <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                > Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 3:49:50 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                >
                                > Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the
                                > link around
                                > campus.
                                >
                                > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/
                                >
                                > What is really obvious is that students who depend on these services
                                > to graduate
                                > had better have some actual skills, or they won't be able to keep a
                                > job once
                                > they get one.
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                                > Of Bob Muckle
                                > [bmuckle@... <mailto:bmuckle%40capilanou.ca>]
                                > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 AM
                                > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                >
                                > Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                                > supposedly
                                > written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a
                                > living? I
                                > recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real
                                > student's
                                > behalf as well.
                                >
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > >>> Deborah Shepherd
                                > >>><deborah.shepherd@...
                                > <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu><mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                                >
                                > >>>11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                                > Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these
                                > days. My
                                > school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                                > guidelines for
                                > defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how
                                > to deal
                                > with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.
                                >
                                > Deb
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                                > Groups
                                > Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >

                                --

                                -----------------------------
                                Andrew J Petto, PhD
                                Senior Lecturer
                                Department of Biological Sciences
                                University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
                                PO Box 413
                                Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
                                CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
                                Telephone: 414-229-6784
                                FAX: 414-229-3926
                                https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

                                *************
                                Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
                                https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
                                *************



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mep1mep
                                I use that site as well.  I haven t gone so far as to require the certificate but I do state that students will be held to the discussed standards.  I, also,
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 16, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I use that site as well.  I haven't gone so far as to require the certificate
                                  but I do state that students will be held to the discussed standards.  I, also,
                                  fail them for the full course--not just an assignment.

                                  Pam



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Andrew Petto <ajpetto@...>
                                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 9:46:12 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating

                                   
                                  Well, it is spitting into a hurricane, but here is what I do:
                                  1. Students get a detailed document that they must sign and upload to
                                  the course web site. Until it is uploaded, the drop boxes for submitting
                                  assignments are not available to them.
                                  2. As a part of that document, they must go to this site ...
                                  https://www.indiana.edu/~tedfrick/plagiarism/
                                  and complete the tutorial and then pass the quiz.
                                  3. Passing the quiz issues a certificate, which they must also upload;
                                  this is the second key to the dropboxes.

                                  I am not so naive as to think this will prevent students from cheating.
                                  However, this is a CMA action. When I discover a suspicious document,
                                  there is no way that a student can claim "I didn't know this wasn't
                                  allowed; and so on"

                                  As of right now, we have 6 suspicious papers in the first written
                                  assignment. 4 of those are definitely going down --- it is that cut and
                                  dry.

                                  Enjoy.

                                  Anj

                                  PS. I discovered when I took the quiz that I was being way too lenient
                                  on close paraphrasing.

                                  On 15-Nov-10 21:20, mep1mep wrote:
                                  >
                                  > This article really offends me. He seems to be trying to foist some
                                  > of the
                                  > blame for his own heinous behavior off on educators. Of course we
                                  > wonder how
                                  > seemingly illiterate students can produce stellar written work. And
                                  > we try like
                                  > hell to trace it down. How about if you don't write the papers for them,
                                  > doofus?
                                  >
                                  > That said, one of our counselors who has a good rapport with students
                                  > told me
                                  > that he commonly gets told that parents are taking online courses for
                                  > their
                                  > kids. I, also, know of cases when wives have taken them for husbands
                                  > (and I
                                  > assume vice/versa). Hate to sound old-fashioned but in the end they
                                  > will be
                                  > cheating themselves. Sad. I wish there were some solution.
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...
                                  > <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                                  > To: "SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>"
                                  > <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                  > Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 3:49:50 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                  >
                                  > Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the
                                  > link around
                                  > campus.
                                  >
                                  > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/
                                  >
                                  > What is really obvious is that students who depend on these services
                                  > to graduate
                                  > had better have some actual skills, or they won't be able to keep a
                                  > job once
                                  > they get one.
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                                  > Of Bob Muckle
                                  > [bmuckle@... <mailto:bmuckle%40capilanou.ca>]
                                  > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 AM
                                  > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                  >
                                  > Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed',
                                  > supposedly
                                  > written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a
                                  > living? I
                                  > recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real
                                  > student's
                                  > behalf as well.
                                  >
                                  > Bob
                                  >
                                  > >>> Deborah Shepherd
                                  > >>><deborah.shepherd@...
                                  ><mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu><mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >>>11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                                  > Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these
                                  > days. My
                                  > school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer
                                  > guidelines for
                                  > defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how
                                  > to deal
                                  > with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.
                                  >
                                  > Deb
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                                  > Groups
                                  > Links
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --

                                  -----------------------------
                                  Andrew J Petto, PhD
                                  Senior Lecturer
                                  Department of Biological Sciences
                                  University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
                                  PO Box 413
                                  Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
                                  CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
                                  Telephone: 414-229-6784
                                  FAX: 414-229-3926
                                  https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

                                  *************
                                  Now Available!!! Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism.
                                  https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/scc2.htm
                                  *************

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lloyd Miller
                                  Pam, I just read it. On one level I do share your outrage, but found that I was having a number of different reactions as I read. One was, Wow, this guy s a
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 17, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Pam, I just read it. On one level I do share your outrage, but found that I was having a number of different reactions as I read.

                                    One was, "Wow, this guy's a genious!" Then: "Assuming that he's being truthful, he's working way too hard for what he earns." Then: "If he's this clever a con artist, how do we know that his entire essay isn't simply a contrivance?" (Again, assuming truthfulness), he has certainly rationalized every aspect of his work life (and if this is true, he can have no other life but his work). The layers of cynicism he displays are beyond my experience or imagination. Again, if true, he and those like him must get a real rush (as he says) from these accomplishments. Imagine being able to con the entire academic establishment for years without once getting caught!

                                    One thing crossed my mind: With all the government money we waste, why not advertise to these shadow scholars that the gov't will pay them their annual salaries (rounded up to the nearest $10,000 figure�$70,000 to this dude�comparatively a pittance) if they will quit the business? Do you think this guy would?

                                    And finally, if his most frequent customers are the education folks (certainly believable), how will we ever improve the K-12 system, our last, best hope?

                                    Lloyd


                                    On Nov 15, 2010, at 9:20 PM, mep1mep wrote:

                                    > This article really offends me. He seems to be trying to foist some of the
                                    > blame for his own heinous behavior off on educators. Of course we wonder how
                                    > seemingly illiterate students can produce stellar written work. And we try like
                                    > hell to trace it down. How about if you don't write the papers for them,
                                    > doofus?
                                    >
                                    > That said, one of our counselors who has a good rapport with students told me
                                    > that he commonly gets told that parents are taking online courses for their
                                    > kids. I, also, know of cases when wives have taken them for husbands (and I
                                    > assume vice/versa). Hate to sound old-fashioned but in the end they will be
                                    > cheating themselves. Sad. I wish there were some solution.
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Deborah Shepherd <deborah.shepherd@...>
                                    > To: "SACC-L@yahoogroups.com" <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 3:49:50 PM
                                    > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                    >
                                    > Is this the article you mean? Someone at my school just passed the link around
                                    > campus.
                                    >
                                    > http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/
                                    >
                                    > What is really obvious is that students who depend on these services to graduate
                                    > had better have some actual skills, or they won't be able to keep a job once
                                    > they get one.
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Muckle
                                    > [bmuckle@...]
                                    > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 AM
                                    > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [SACC-L] RE: Cheating
                                    >
                                    > Did anyone see the article in a recent 'Chronicle of Higher Ed', supposedly
                                    > written by someone who writes papers on the behalf of students for a living? I
                                    > recall she or he also said they have taken on-line courses on a real student's
                                    > behalf as well.
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > >>> Deborah Shepherd
                                    > >>><deborah.shepherd@...<mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>>
                                    > >>>11/15/2010 7:50 AM >>>
                                    > Cheating in test-taking and plagiarism are depressing issues these days. My
                                    > school is now forming a faculty/staff committee to create firmer guidelines for
                                    > defining what these are, what student and faculty rights are, and how to deal
                                    > with situations. We used to think it was all obvious.
                                    >
                                    > Deb
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups
                                    > Links
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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