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is it mean?

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  • frank lagana
    ... classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets on Tuesdays
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
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      >I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in >one of my
      classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions >is really clear, on
      the printed guidelines to the assignment. The >class normally meets on
      Tuesdays and Fridays, but not today >since the college is closed for Good
      Friday. So, I get an email from >a student explaining that she brought the
      assignment to class only >to find out when she got there the college was
      locked up tight. And >she tells me that in the email that she will bring it
      to me Monday >instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it
      to me >today or any day next week.

      I don't think it's mean at all to expect students to pay attention to things
      like due dates. I hate sounding like an old crank but too many young people
      today seem to think that rules don't apply to them.
      Presumably the young lady had a phone she could use to call and find out if
      the school is open?

      frank


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kent Morris
      don t spoil them--we need to make them tough and responsible and ready to handle the world after all of us croak... ... From: frank lagana
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
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        don't spoil them--we need to make them tough and responsible and ready to
        handle the world after all of us croak...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "frank lagana" <frank11217@...>
        To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:08 PM
        Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?


        > >I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in >one of
        > >my
        > classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions >is really clear, on
        > the printed guidelines to the assignment. The >class normally meets on
        > Tuesdays and Fridays, but not today >since the college is closed for Good
        > Friday. So, I get an email from >a student explaining that she brought the
        > assignment to class only >to find out when she got there the college was
        > locked up tight. And >she tells me that in the email that she will bring
        > it
        > to me Monday >instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it
        > to me >today or any day next week.
        >
        > I don't think it's mean at all to expect students to pay attention to
        > things
        > like due dates. I hate sounding like an old crank but too many young
        > people
        > today seem to think that rules don't apply to them.
        > Presumably the young lady had a phone she could use to call and find out
        > if
        > the school is open?
        >
        > frank
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
        > Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > signature database 4995 (20100402) __________
        >
        > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
        >
        > http://www.eset.com
        >
        >
        >


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      • Nikki Ives
        I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I m a total pushover when it comes to late
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
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          I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

          Just my 2 cents...





          Nicole Ives
          Prince George's Community College
          Largo, MD




          ________________________________
          From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@...>
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
          Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?


          I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

          Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

          This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

          What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

          Bob






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lynch, Brian M
          This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn t been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours, and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.

            But I don't eventually give the sarcastic come-back. I realize, after all, that my grasp of the situation is of a different order than the student's-- who might learn nothing from a sarcastic retort from me except maybe that I can be sarcastic. I'll usually be direct with them, and if my grading/assessment system is worth anything, their pattern of responsibility (or irresponsibility) will eventually be clear to them in the results of their semester grades.

            For the student who missed the March 26 deadline, I would probably just send a note saying-- "please note that the college is closed on Monday also..." Chances are she might not read the email anyway; if she does, she'll find out soon enough that her having missed the original deadline had its own consequences.

            Brian



            -----Original Message-----
            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Nikki Ives
            Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 7:28 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

            I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

            Just my 2 cents...





            Nicole Ives
            Prince George's Community College
            Largo, MD




            ________________________________
            From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@...>
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
            Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?


            I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

            Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

            This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

            What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

            Bob






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mep1mep
            My two cents.  If the College was closed on Friday and it is closed on Monday, than you (and your email) are closed as well.  You are under no obligation to
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              My two cents.  If the College was closed on Friday and it is closed on Monday, than you (and your email) are closed as well.  You are under no obligation to respond and you shouldn't.  Have a nice vacation.  After all, it is your vacation.  It isn't about her and shame on you for wasting the time thinking about her.

              Sorry, I am harsh in  my old age.

              Pam




              ________________________________
              From: "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...>
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 7:40:50 PM
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?

               

              This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours, and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.

              But I don't eventually give the sarcastic come-back. I realize, after all, that my grasp of the situation is of a different order than the student's-- who might learn nothing from a sarcastic retort from me except maybe that I can be sarcastic. I'll usually be direct with them, and if my grading/assessment system is worth anything, their pattern of responsibility (or irresponsibility) will eventually be clear to them in the results of their semester grades.

              For the student who missed the March 26 deadline, I would probably just send a note saying-- "please note that the college is closed on Monday also..." Chances are she might not read the email anyway; if she does, she'll find out soon enough that her having missed the original deadline had its own consequences.

              Brian

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Nikki Ives
              Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 7:28 PM
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

              I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

              Just my 2 cents...

              Nicole Ives
              Prince George's Community College
              Largo, MD

              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@capilanou. ca>
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
              Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?

              I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

              Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

              This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

              What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

              Bob

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lewine, Mark
              Mark Lewine ... From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mep1mep Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 11:47 PM To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean? My
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Mark Lewine



                -----Original Message-----
                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of mep1mep
                Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 11:47 PM
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                My two cents.  If the College was closed on Friday and it is closed on Monday, than you (and your email) are closed as well.  You are under no obligation to respond and you shouldn't.  Have a nice vacation.  After all, it is your vacation.  It isn't about her and shame on you for wasting the time thinking about her.

                Sorry, I am harsh in  my old age.

                Pam




                ________________________________
                From: "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...>
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 7:40:50 PM
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                 

                This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours, and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.

                But I don't eventually give the sarcastic come-back. I realize, after all, that my grasp of the situation is of a different order than the student's-- who might learn nothing from a sarcastic retort from me except maybe that I can be sarcastic. I'll usually be direct with them, and if my grading/assessment system is worth anything, their pattern of responsibility (or irresponsibility) will eventually be clear to them in the results of their semester grades.

                For the student who missed the March 26 deadline, I would probably just send a note saying-- "please note that the college is closed on Monday also..." Chances are she might not read the email anyway; if she does, she'll find out soon enough that her having missed the original deadline had its own consequences.

                Brian

                -----Original Message-----
                From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Nikki Ives
                Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 7:28 PM
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

                Just my 2 cents...

                Nicole Ives
                Prince George's Community College
                Largo, MD

                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@capilanou. ca>
                To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
                Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

                Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

                This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

                What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

                Bob

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gilliland, Mary
                I m afraid I m a lot mushier with the boundaries in individual cases, but I m pretty strict in my syllabus, so it allows me to hold them responsible & then
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'm afraid I'm a lot mushier with the boundaries in individual cases, but I'm pretty strict in my syllabus, so it allows me to hold them responsible & then make the odd adjustments as needed -- though I'm careful not to set precedents that will affect many other such requests (e.g. it has to be something really exceptional for the mushiness to kick in).

                  One thing I added to my syllabus this semester is a request for students to NEVER ask "Did I miss anything important?

                  MK
                  ________________________________________
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lewine, Mark [mark.lewine@...]
                  Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:56 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                  Mark Lewine

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mep1mep
                  Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 11:47 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                  My two cents. If the College was closed on Friday and it is closed on Monday, than you (and your email) are closed as well. You are under no obligation to respond and you shouldn't. Have a nice vacation. After all, it is your vacation. It isn't about her and shame on you for wasting the time thinking about her.

                  Sorry, I am harsh in my old age.

                  Pam

                  ________________________________
                  From: "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...<mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu>>
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 7:40:50 PM
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?



                  This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours, and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.

                  But I don't eventually give the sarcastic come-back. I realize, after all, that my grasp of the situation is of a different order than the student's-- who might learn nothing from a sarcastic retort from me except maybe that I can be sarcastic. I'll usually be direct with them, and if my grading/assessment system is worth anything, their pattern of responsibility (or irresponsibility) will eventually be clear to them in the results of their semester grades.

                  For the student who missed the March 26 deadline, I would probably just send a note saying-- "please note that the college is closed on Monday also..." Chances are she might not read the email anyway; if she does, she'll find out soon enough that her having missed the original deadline had its own consequences.

                  Brian

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Nikki Ives
                  Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 7:28 PM
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                  I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

                  Just my 2 cents...

                  Nicole Ives
                  Prince George's Community College
                  Largo, MD

                  ____________ _________ _________ __
                  From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@capilanou. ca>
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
                  Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                  I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

                  Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

                  This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

                  What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

                  Bob

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Gilliland, Mary
                  Sorry, my comment below doesn t really address the Monday issue -- it just responds to Brian s comment... but I might be inclined to shoot a quick e-mail to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sorry, my comment below doesn't really address the Monday issue -- it just responds to Brian's comment... but I might be inclined to shoot a quick e-mail to remind her to check the college calendar.

                    MK
                    ________________________________________
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gilliland, Mary [mkgilliland@...]
                    Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 9:03 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                    I'm afraid I'm a lot mushier with the boundaries in individual cases, but I'm pretty strict in my syllabus, so it allows me to hold them responsible & then make the odd adjustments as needed -- though I'm careful not to set precedents that will affect many other such requests (e.g. it has to be something really exceptional for the mushiness to kick in).

                    One thing I added to my syllabus this semester is a request for students to NEVER ask "Did I miss anything important?

                    MK
                    ________________________________________
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lewine, Mark [mark.lewine@...]
                    Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:56 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                    Mark Lewine

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mep1mep
                    Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 11:47 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                    My two cents. If the College was closed on Friday and it is closed on Monday, than you (and your email) are closed as well. You are under no obligation to respond and you shouldn't. Have a nice vacation. After all, it is your vacation. It isn't about her and shame on you for wasting the time thinking about her.

                    Sorry, I am harsh in my old age.

                    Pam

                    ________________________________
                    From: "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...<mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu>>
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com<mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 7:40:50 PM
                    Subject: RE: [SACC-L] is it mean?



                    This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours, and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.

                    But I don't eventually give the sarcastic come-back. I realize, after all, that my grasp of the situation is of a different order than the student's-- who might learn nothing from a sarcastic retort from me except maybe that I can be sarcastic. I'll usually be direct with them, and if my grading/assessment system is worth anything, their pattern of responsibility (or irresponsibility) will eventually be clear to them in the results of their semester grades.

                    For the student who missed the March 26 deadline, I would probably just send a note saying-- "please note that the college is closed on Monday also..." Chances are she might not read the email anyway; if she does, she'll find out soon enough that her having missed the original deadline had its own consequences.

                    Brian

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Nikki Ives
                    Sent: Fri 4/2/2010 7:28 PM
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                    I think you should tell her the college will be closed on Monday - just as a courtesy from one person to another. I'm a total pushover when it comes to late assignments so I won't offer any advice on that.

                    Just my 2 cents...

                    Nicole Ives
                    Prince George's Community College
                    Largo, MD

                    ____________ _________ _________ __
                    From: Bob Muckle <bmuckle@capilanou. ca>
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 6:44:09 PM
                    Subject: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                    I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.

                    Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.

                    This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.

                    What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?

                    Bob

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    ------------------------------------

                    Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Lloyd Miller
                    By now, Bob, you have probably dealt with this in whatever way you decided. I ve read colleagues responses and have given this some thought. Although out of
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 6, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      By now, Bob, you have probably dealt with this in whatever way you decided. I've read colleagues' responses and have given this some thought. Although out of the game for 10 years, I still hear of these experiences from my wife and son who both teach at DMACC.

                      Faced with the same dilemma, I probably would have informed her that the college would be closed on Monday, like Nikki Ives recommended--as information that we have and should pass on to students (even though to withhold it would have been a deliciously satisfying, passive aggressive act). In the same message, I would have told her that she had already earned the (irrevocable) penalty for late submission.

                      However, I agree very much with you that enabling or hand-holding these students does them no good--it validates their behavior--and uses up instructor time and energy that could (and in my opinion, should) be spent on the students who make genuine efforts to learn.

                      Your description of the student as "somebody who really shouldn't be at a college" raises some key issues: Who indeed should be at college? Which colleges should they be at? And, in fact, what kinds of students are at our colleges today?

                      At DMACC, I've watched so-called educational standards and quality erode gradually for many years. Instructors will insist that they maintain quality in their individual classrooms, but they have little control over the larger picture. Since the most recent economic downturn, DMACC's enrollment has exploded and the president has been cheered by both his board and the Iowa legislature for this. He insists that ever section be staffed and that increasing numbers of sections be offered to accommodate rising enrollments. Consequently, his deans will ignore the warnings of full-time faculty that so-and-so is a proven failure or is not qualified to teach a particular course and hire the person anyway.

                      (For full disclosure: when I was an administrator during the 1970s and couldn't find a qualified adjunct to teach a particular section, I would cancel the section rather than staff it with someone unqualified. Sometimes I had to pound a fist on my bosses' desks, but generally I was able to do this. I doubt that I could today, and to my knowledge, no one has tried.)

                      It seems as though our entire society has capitulated to the idea that education equals earning credits and degrees that lead to jobs. Increasingly, I see ads on TV and elsewhere by institutions after the pattern established by the "University of Phoenix" touting quick, easy, cheap degrees available online. The implication is that these are so much more rewarding than attending a "real college or university" and suffering the boredom and irrelevance of stuffy old classroom professors. (Anyone who hasn't yet should read Howard Paap's satirical short story in the Commemorative issue of SACC Notes, written in the 1990s, and see how prescient it was.)

                      In timely fashion, as I write this, I just read an AP article in today's paper headlined, "Community colleges watch demand soar, funding plunge." Not all colleges are reacting like DMACC. The Wayne Co. CC District in Detroit is capping student enrollment, Louisiana CCs are slashing programs, in California, they're scheduling classes around the clock. According to the article, the nation's 1,200 CCs enroll nearly half of its college population, and (as we know), "many low-income, first generation, immigrant and Hispanic students."

                      So, in light of all this, where do what we once thought of as educational standards and quality fit in? Remember when, back in the 1960s, community colleges were created to fulfill the dream of providing everyone who wished an opportunity to get a college education? Well, I think we've succeeded; a whole lot of those "everyones" are enrolling. But no one expected these institutions to be leaders in quality education (whatever that means in the public mind). If we really held students accountable for the kind of educational standards most of us in the profession could agree upon, many of these students would fail or drop out (many do anyway), our retention rates would fall noticeably, and quality higher education would be left to the deserving few. Most significantly, many of our jobs would likely be abolished.

                      For the near future, I think, we community colleges, taking advantage of our recently achieved status with the public, will lobby for a bigger share of the educational funds in return for "accommodating" all the everyones who cross our thresholds. We will continue dithering with our assessment activities which, if they were ever completed, would be unenforceable. And, we teachers will continue, as individuals, to apply our wide diversity of educational philosophies, methods and standards in our courses. Some of us will believe with all our hearts that what we do in the way we do it is absolutely the best way to educate our students. Others of us will care less about this idea. If we do come together, it will be to defend our rights of academic freedom.

                      When the evidence of general ignorance, incompetence and lack of preparation among increasing portions of our population becomes obvious and no longer arguable (and it will eventually), we will blame it on the K-12 schools, where much of the blame is deserved.

                      Throughout my entire career, I have looked for genuine educational leaders in community colleges, and I ain't never seen one yet. Gosh but I'd love to be surprised!

                      Lloyd





                      On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Bob Muckle wrote:

                      > I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference if she gave it to me today or any day next week.
                      >
                      > Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college only to find it closed again.
                      >
                      > This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the assignment.
                      >
                      > What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gilliland, Mary
                      Lloyd: Can you put this into SACC notes somewhere? It is a wonderful, provocative piece of writing. The big question is, where do we go from here? Mary Kay
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 6, 2010
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                        Lloyd: Can you put this into SACC notes somewhere? It is a wonderful, provocative piece of writing. The big question is, where do we go from here?

                        Mary Kay
                      • Lloyd Miller
                        Thanks for your kind words, Mary Kay. After I read them, I re-read what I wrote. I actually thought that I was simply venting some stuff that s been going
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 6, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for your kind words, Mary Kay. After I read them, I re-read what I wrote. I actually thought that I was simply venting some stuff that's been going around in my head. Yes, I could put it in SACC Notes. I guess that's one of the perks of being editor--I'm a "peer-review" committee of one.

                          I'll wait and see what other comments (if any) I receive, and let my commentary evolve with the criticism. Maybe some folks will have ideas on where we go from here. I'm currently at a loss...

                          Lloyd


                          On Apr 6, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Gilliland, Mary wrote:

                          > Lloyd: Can you put this into SACC notes somewhere? It is a wonderful, provocative piece of writing. The big question is, where do we go from here?
                          >
                          > Mary Kay



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Kent Morris
                          Much of the time I see myself as a sort of gatekeeper to four-year institutions whose job is to weed out students who don t have the intelligence or prior
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 6, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Much of the time I see myself as a sort of gatekeeper to four-year
                            institutions whose job is to weed out students who don't have the
                            intelligence or prior educational competency or who have poor, seemingly
                            irreconcilable study habits or a "don't give a damn" attitude, but I also
                            sometimes find myself sympathizing with students who may not be doing so
                            well but nevertheless appear to be serious about their education and I see
                            hope and value in giving them the extra encouragement and attention they
                            need to succeed...
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Lloyd Miller" <lloyd.miller@...>
                            To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 10:10 AM
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?


                            > By now, Bob, you have probably dealt with this in whatever way you
                            > decided. I've read colleagues' responses and have given this some
                            > thought. Although out of the game for 10 years, I still hear of these
                            > experiences from my wife and son who both teach at DMACC.
                            >
                            > Faced with the same dilemma, I probably would have informed her that the
                            > college would be closed on Monday, like Nikki Ives recommended--as
                            > information that we have and should pass on to students (even though to
                            > withhold it would have been a deliciously satisfying, passive aggressive
                            > act). In the same message, I would have told her that she had already
                            > earned the (irrevocable) penalty for late submission.
                            >
                            > However, I agree very much with you that enabling or hand-holding these
                            > students does them no good--it validates their behavior--and uses up
                            > instructor time and energy that could (and in my opinion, should) be spent
                            > on the students who make genuine efforts to learn.
                            >
                            > Your description of the student as "somebody who really shouldn't be at a
                            > college" raises some key issues: Who indeed should be at college? Which
                            > colleges should they be at? And, in fact, what kinds of students are at
                            > our colleges today?
                            >
                            > At DMACC, I've watched so-called educational standards and quality erode
                            > gradually for many years. Instructors will insist that they maintain
                            > quality in their individual classrooms, but they have little control over
                            > the larger picture. Since the most recent economic downturn, DMACC's
                            > enrollment has exploded and the president has been cheered by both his
                            > board and the Iowa legislature for this. He insists that ever section be
                            > staffed and that increasing numbers of sections be offered to accommodate
                            > rising enrollments. Consequently, his deans will ignore the warnings of
                            > full-time faculty that so-and-so is a proven failure or is not qualified
                            > to teach a particular course and hire the person anyway.
                            >
                            > (For full disclosure: when I was an administrator during the 1970s and
                            > couldn't find a qualified adjunct to teach a particular section, I would
                            > cancel the section rather than staff it with someone unqualified.
                            > Sometimes I had to pound a fist on my bosses' desks, but generally I was
                            > able to do this. I doubt that I could today, and to my knowledge, no one
                            > has tried.)
                            >
                            > It seems as though our entire society has capitulated to the idea that
                            > education equals earning credits and degrees that lead to jobs.
                            > Increasingly, I see ads on TV and elsewhere by institutions after the
                            > pattern established by the "University of Phoenix" touting quick, easy,
                            > cheap degrees available online. The implication is that these are so much
                            > more rewarding than attending a "real college or university" and suffering
                            > the boredom and irrelevance of stuffy old classroom professors. (Anyone
                            > who hasn't yet should read Howard Paap's satirical short story in the
                            > Commemorative issue of SACC Notes, written in the 1990s, and see how
                            > prescient it was.)
                            >
                            > In timely fashion, as I write this, I just read an AP article in today's
                            > paper headlined, "Community colleges watch demand soar, funding plunge."
                            > Not all colleges are reacting like DMACC. The Wayne Co. CC District in
                            > Detroit is capping student enrollment, Louisiana CCs are slashing
                            > programs, in California, they're scheduling classes around the clock.
                            > According to the article, the nation's 1,200 CCs enroll nearly half of its
                            > college population, and (as we know), "many low-income, first generation,
                            > immigrant and Hispanic students."
                            >
                            > So, in light of all this, where do what we once thought of as educational
                            > standards and quality fit in? Remember when, back in the 1960s,
                            > community colleges were created to fulfill the dream of providing everyone
                            > who wished an opportunity to get a college education? Well, I think we've
                            > succeeded; a whole lot of those "everyones" are enrolling. But no one
                            > expected these institutions to be leaders in quality education (whatever
                            > that means in the public mind). If we really held students accountable
                            > for the kind of educational standards most of us in the profession could
                            > agree upon, many of these students would fail or drop out (many do
                            > anyway), our retention rates would fall noticeably, and quality higher
                            > education would be left to the deserving few. Most significantly, many of
                            > our jobs would likely be abolished.
                            >
                            > For the near future, I think, we community colleges, taking advantage of
                            > our recently achieved status with the public, will lobby for a bigger
                            > share of the educational funds in return for "accommodating" all the
                            > everyones who cross our thresholds. We will continue dithering with our
                            > assessment activities which, if they were ever completed, would be
                            > unenforceable. And, we teachers will continue, as individuals, to apply
                            > our wide diversity of educational philosophies, methods and standards in
                            > our courses. Some of us will believe with all our hearts that what we do
                            > in the way we do it is absolutely the best way to educate our students.
                            > Others of us will care less about this idea. If we do come together, it
                            > will be to defend our rights of academic freedom.
                            >
                            > When the evidence of general ignorance, incompetence and lack of
                            > preparation among increasing portions of our population becomes obvious
                            > and no longer arguable (and it will eventually), we will blame it on the
                            > K-12 schools, where much of the blame is deserved.
                            >
                            > Throughout my entire career, I have looked for genuine educational leaders
                            > in community colleges, and I ain't never seen one yet. Gosh but I'd love
                            > to be surprised!
                            >
                            > Lloyd
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Bob Muckle wrote:
                            >
                            >> I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my
                            >> classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on
                            >> the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets
                            >> onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for
                            >> Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she
                            >> brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the
                            >> college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she
                            >> will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference
                            >> if she gave it to me today or any day next week.
                            >>
                            >> Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on
                            >> Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college
                            >> only to find it closed again.
                            >>
                            >> This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not
                            >> read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the
                            >> assignment.
                            >>
                            >> What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college
                            >> to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind
                            >> of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?
                            >>
                            >> Bob
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                            > Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
                            >
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                            >
                            >


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                            The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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                          • Mark Lewine
                            I cannot help adding yet another perspective. In some ways, we at the community college are domestic settlement houses, enculturating
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 6, 2010
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                              I cannot help adding yet another perspective. In some ways, we at the
                              community college are domestic settlement houses, enculturating
                              first-of-family-in-college, workforce entry or re-entry, enculturating
                              veterans back into domestic student and work cultural expectations. So, as
                              ESL or EPL teachers of cultural dialects and norms we are responsible for
                              being aware of what students know, do not know, and moving them to mind-sets
                              of knowledge with awareness of what is expected of them in academic and
                              occupational futures equipped with cultural tools for successful degrees
                              and/or job attainment. But there is a difference between being an
                              assimilationist colonial BIA teacher of American culture in a reservation
                              school, and being the famous and misunderstood Oakland teacher who thought
                              that she would learn the dialect and norms of her urban students in order to
                              better teach them how to learn standard dialect and norms with knowledge,
                              understanding and mutual respect. Yet the problem really centers on
                              respecting your students as adults, respecting the limits of your role as
                              their prof., and avoiding the temptation to be paternalistic or
                              maternalistic, and coming off as Judge Judy. Can we not use respectful adult
                              classroom language and relationships that involve learning without preaching
                              from the pulpit? If I really learn about the lives of my students, I learn
                              about how the Free Clinic kept the mom with the child with strep two hours
                              longer than expected, or the daycare at the college (true story) was
                              cancelled and she relies on the sister who did not show up, so can she bring
                              the kid and take the test? or should she take it later? and more....social
                              relativity needs to be learned by us also...my average age student was 34,
                              now its 25 and dropping...I have to change approaches...the rules are not
                              what is important for me, it is the way I learn to get across what they need
                              to know...
                              as for paternalism, even that needs anthropology:
                              As I tell my students, the difference between me as a parent after
                              anthropology and before anthropology is this: my 9 year old son comes home
                              from the playground and uses peer slang in the home. What I would have said
                              and done b.a (before anthro): (loud clear and threatening voice- "WE NEVER
                              USE THAT LANGUAGE IN THIS FAMILY, IS THAT CLEAR? IF I EVER HEAR THAT WORD
                              OUT OF YOUR MOUTH AGAIN, THERE WILL BE BIG TROUBLE FOR YOU!" Now I say,
                              having learned directly from the Oakland teacher, "Leave that talk on the
                              playground where it belongs...we speak with respect to each other at home"
                              this acknowledges that there are dialects such as peer and gender dialects
                              that need to be used situationally for successful urban living.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Lloyd Miller" <lloyd.miller@...>
                              To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:10 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?


                              > By now, Bob, you have probably dealt with this in whatever way you
                              > decided. I've read colleagues' responses and have given this some
                              > thought. Although out of the game for 10 years, I still hear of these
                              > experiences from my wife and son who both teach at DMACC.
                              >
                              > Faced with the same dilemma, I probably would have informed her that the
                              > college would be closed on Monday, like Nikki Ives recommended--as
                              > information that we have and should pass on to students (even though to
                              > withhold it would have been a deliciously satisfying, passive aggressive
                              > act). In the same message, I would have told her that she had already
                              > earned the (irrevocable) penalty for late submission.
                              >
                              > However, I agree very much with you that enabling or hand-holding these
                              > students does them no good--it validates their behavior--and uses up
                              > instructor time and energy that could (and in my opinion, should) be spent
                              > on the students who make genuine efforts to learn.
                              >
                              > Your description of the student as "somebody who really shouldn't be at a
                              > college" raises some key issues: Who indeed should be at college? Which
                              > colleges should they be at? And, in fact, what kinds of students are at
                              > our colleges today?
                              >
                              > At DMACC, I've watched so-called educational standards and quality erode
                              > gradually for many years. Instructors will insist that they maintain
                              > quality in their individual classrooms, but they have little control over
                              > the larger picture. Since the most recent economic downturn, DMACC's
                              > enrollment has exploded and the president has been cheered by both his
                              > board and the Iowa legislature for this. He insists that ever section be
                              > staffed and that increasing numbers of sections be offered to accommodate
                              > rising enrollments. Consequently, his deans will ignore the warnings of
                              > full-time faculty that so-and-so is a proven failure or is not qualified
                              > to teach a particular course and hire the person anyway.
                              >
                              > (For full disclosure: when I was an administrator during the 1970s and
                              > couldn't find a qualified adjunct to teach a particular section, I would
                              > cancel the section rather than staff it with someone unqualified.
                              > Sometimes I had to pound a fist on my bosses' desks, but generally I was
                              > able to do this. I doubt that I could today, and to my knowledge, no one
                              > has tried.)
                              >
                              > It seems as though our entire society has capitulated to the idea that
                              > education equals earning credits and degrees that lead to jobs.
                              > Increasingly, I see ads on TV and elsewhere by institutions after the
                              > pattern established by the "University of Phoenix" touting quick, easy,
                              > cheap degrees available online. The implication is that these are so much
                              > more rewarding than attending a "real college or university" and suffering
                              > the boredom and irrelevance of stuffy old classroom professors. (Anyone
                              > who hasn't yet should read Howard Paap's satirical short story in the
                              > Commemorative issue of SACC Notes, written in the 1990s, and see how
                              > prescient it was.)
                              >
                              > In timely fashion, as I write this, I just read an AP article in today's
                              > paper headlined, "Community colleges watch demand soar, funding plunge."
                              > Not all colleges are reacting like DMACC. The Wayne Co. CC District in
                              > Detroit is capping student enrollment, Louisiana CCs are slashing
                              > programs, in California, they're scheduling classes around the clock.
                              > According to the article, the nation's 1,200 CCs enroll nearly half of its
                              > college population, and (as we know), "many low-income, first generation,
                              > immigrant and Hispanic students."
                              >
                              > So, in light of all this, where do what we once thought of as educational
                              > standards and quality fit in? Remember when, back in the 1960s,
                              > community colleges were created to fulfill the dream of providing everyone
                              > who wished an opportunity to get a college education? Well, I think we've
                              > succeeded; a whole lot of those "everyones" are enrolling. But no one
                              > expected these institutions to be leaders in quality education (whatever
                              > that means in the public mind). If we really held students accountable
                              > for the kind of educational standards most of us in the profession could
                              > agree upon, many of these students would fail or drop out (many do
                              > anyway), our retention rates would fall noticeably, and quality higher
                              > education would be left to the deserving few. Most significantly, many of
                              > our jobs would likely be abolished.
                              >
                              > For the near future, I think, we community colleges, taking advantage of
                              > our recently achieved status with the public, will lobby for a bigger
                              > share of the educational funds in return for "accommodating" all the
                              > everyones who cross our thresholds. We will continue dithering with our
                              > assessment activities which, if they were ever completed, would be
                              > unenforceable. And, we teachers will continue, as individuals, to apply
                              > our wide diversity of educational philosophies, methods and standards in
                              > our courses. Some of us will believe with all our hearts that what we do
                              > in the way we do it is absolutely the best way to educate our students.
                              > Others of us will care less about this idea. If we do come together, it
                              > will be to defend our rights of academic freedom.
                              >
                              > When the evidence of general ignorance, incompetence and lack of
                              > preparation among increasing portions of our population becomes obvious
                              > and no longer arguable (and it will eventually), we will blame it on the
                              > K-12 schools, where much of the blame is deserved.
                              >
                              > Throughout my entire career, I have looked for genuine educational leaders
                              > in community colleges, and I ain't never seen one yet. Gosh but I'd love
                              > to be surprised!
                              >
                              > Lloyd
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Bob Muckle wrote:
                              >
                              >> I had a major assignment (worth 30% of the course grade) due in one of my
                              >> classes on March 26. The penalty for late submissions is really clear, on
                              >> the printed guidelines to the assignment. The class normally meets
                              >> onTuesdays and Fridays, but not today since the college is closed for
                              >> Good Friday. So, I get an email from a student explaining that she
                              >> brought the assignment to class only to find out when she got there the
                              >> college was locked up tight. And she tells me that in the email that she
                              >> will bring it to me Monday instead. Penalty-wise, it makes no difference
                              >> if she gave it to me today or any day next week.
                              >>
                              >> Now....the question is.....shall I tell her the college is closed on
                              >> Monday as well (which it is)? Or let her make another trip to the college
                              >> only to find it closed again.
                              >>
                              >> This is not a good student. Rarely comes to class. Obviously does not
                              >> read the syllabus, detailed class schedule, or guidelines for the
                              >> assignment.
                              >>
                              >> What to do? Would it be mean to let her make another trip to the college
                              >> to find it closed? Or shall I tell her? If I tell her, aren't I just kind
                              >> of being an enabler of somebody who really shouldn't be at a college?
                              >>
                              >> Bob
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                              > Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Gilliland, Mary
                              I am often grateful for Mark s observations. I have tried and continue to try to incorporate what I learn from my discipline into my wider life; anthropology
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 7, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am often grateful for Mark's observations. I have tried and continue to try to incorporate what I learn from my discipline into my wider life; anthropology is uniquely useful in this way. I am especially appreciative of the particular comments about speech patterns, and when different varieties are appropriate. Thank you, Mark for articulating that so well.

                                Mary Kay


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Johnson, Ellen C. K.
                                To Bob, etc. I have been reading this thread and am reminded of comments of the counselor and reading specialist with whom I teamed last fall regarding grading
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 7, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  To Bob, etc.
                                  I have been reading this thread and am reminded of comments of the counselor and reading specialist with whom I teamed last fall regarding grading our "underprepared" students. My teammates told me to make my course expectations clear, which I did both orally (repeatedly) and in writing. And then to stick to them and to the "punishments" (lowered grades, zeros, etc.), which I did. I was to teach Introduction to Cultural Anthropology as a real, regular college course. If students failed (as about a third of the class did), then they failed. Students would learn that, if they didn't do assignments, and/or plagiarized those they did do (so failed those assignments and, in some cases, the course),and/or attended irregularly so lacked information, then so be it. They would learn that undone or shoddy work would not help them succeed at college.
                                  Both other professors were working hard to teach college survival skills and the "culture of college" (what you have to do to succeed). All three of us worked additionally with students who were serious about doing course work and learning.
                                  I think it is significant to note that one-third of the class (almost all the class, by the way, had low reading scores and families without college background) got A's, B's or high C's. Another third got lower C's or D's (and many of these were irregular attendees or those who didn't turn in some work or plagiarized even though all three of us had repeatedly discussed plagiarism). The other two faculty were pleased with how many students out of the total actually did pass or do well. I was concerned with how many failed (usually not so many students in my "regular" classes fail, although there are invariably a few), but students did also know that they could retake the course later and get a better grade, possibly, and the better grade would be the one standing on their records (COD policy).
                                  So, Bob, your student reached the level she intended to reach. You did your part and made expectations clear. You should not worry so much. She made her decision. Maybe, with permission and cooperation of the students who wrote the really good papers, some of these papers could be read to/by other students so they can see what a good paper is like.
                                  Ellen Johnson
                                  ________________________________________
                                  From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd Miller [lloyd.miller@...]
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 12:53 PM
                                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] is it mean?

                                  Thanks for your kind words, Mary Kay. After I read them, I re-read what I wrote. I actually thought that I was simply venting some stuff that's been going around in my head. Yes, I could put it in SACC Notes. I guess that's one of the perks of being editor--I'm a "peer-review" committee of one.

                                  I'll wait and see what other comments (if any) I receive, and let my commentary evolve with the criticism. Maybe some folks will have ideas on where we go from here. I'm currently at a loss...

                                  Lloyd

                                  On Apr 6, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Gilliland, Mary wrote:

                                  > Lloyd: Can you put this into SACC notes somewhere? It is a wonderful, provocative piece of writing. The big question is, where do we go from here?
                                  >
                                  > Mary Kay

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lori Barkley
                                  OK, so this shows how far I am behind in my emails, but here is a great poem from a Canadian working in academe that speaks directly to this. Enjoy! (I like
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 10, 2010
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                                    OK, so this shows how far I am behind in my emails, but here is a great
                                    poem from a Canadian working in academe that speaks directly to this.
                                    Enjoy! (I like to quote from it during the semester...) Hope to see
                                    you in Puerto Rico!
                                    Lori


                                    Did I Miss Anything?
                                    Tom Wayman

                                    Nothing. When we realized you weren’t here
                                    we sat with our hands folded on our desks
                                    in silence, for the full two hours
                                    Everything. I gave an exam worth
                                    40 percent of the grade for this term
                                    and assigned some reading due today
                                    on which I’m about to hand out a quiz
                                    worth 50 percent
                                    Nothing. None of the content of this course
                                    has value or meaning
                                    Take as many days off as you like:
                                    any activities we undertake as a class
                                    I assure you will not matter either to you or me
                                    and are without purpose
                                    Everything. A few minutes after we began last time
                                    a shaft of light suddenly descended and an angel
                                    or other heavenly being appeared
                                    and revealed to us what each woman or man must do
                                    to attain divine wisdom in this life and
                                    the hereafter
                                    This is the last time the class will meet
                                    before we disperse to bring the good news to all people
                                    on earth.
                                    Nothing. When you are not present
                                    how could something significant occur?
                                    Everything. Contained in this classroom
                                    is a microcosm of human experience
                                    assembled for you to query and examine and ponder
                                    This is not the only place such an opportunity has been
                                    gathered
                                    but it was one place
                                    And you weren’t here



                                    >>> "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...> 02/04/2010 5:40 pm >>>



                                    This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been
                                    to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of
                                    factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the
                                    blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") Deep
                                    inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do
                                    anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very
                                    discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a
                                    five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for hours,
                                    and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Chuck & Gail Ellenbaum
                                    This is priceless. But to some of our more entitled students, the sarcasm might pass by unrealized. Chuck Ellenbaum ... [Non-text portions of this
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 10, 2010
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                                      This is priceless. But to some of our more "entitled" students, the
                                      sarcasm might pass by unrealized.

                                      Chuck Ellenbaum ><>

                                      On May 10, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Lori Barkley wrote:

                                      > OK, so this shows how far I am behind in my emails, but here is a
                                      > great
                                      > poem from a Canadian working in academe that speaks directly to this.
                                      > Enjoy! (I like to quote from it during the semester...) Hope to see
                                      > you in Puerto Rico!
                                      > Lori
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Did I Miss Anything?
                                      > Tom Wayman
                                      >
                                      > Nothing. When we realized you weren�t here
                                      > we sat with our hands folded on our desks
                                      > in silence, for the full two hours
                                      > Everything. I gave an exam worth
                                      > 40 percent of the grade for this term
                                      > and assigned some reading due today
                                      > on which I�m about to hand out a quiz
                                      > worth 50 percent
                                      > Nothing. None of the content of this course
                                      > has value or meaning
                                      > Take as many days off as you like:
                                      > any activities we undertake as a class
                                      > I assure you will not matter either to you or me
                                      > and are without purpose
                                      > Everything. A few minutes after we began last time
                                      > a shaft of light suddenly descended and an angel
                                      > or other heavenly being appeared
                                      > and revealed to us what each woman or man must do
                                      > to attain divine wisdom in this life and
                                      > the hereafter
                                      > This is the last time the class will meet
                                      > before we disperse to bring the good news to all people
                                      > on earth.
                                      > Nothing. When you are not present
                                      > how could something significant occur?
                                      > Everything. Contained in this classroom
                                      > is a microcosm of human experience
                                      > assembled for you to query and examine and ponder
                                      > This is not the only place such an opportunity has been
                                      > gathered
                                      > but it was one place
                                      > And you weren�t here
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >>> "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...> 02/04/2010 5:40 pm >>>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been
                                      > to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of
                                      > factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the
                                      > blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?")
                                      > Deep
                                      > inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do
                                      > anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very
                                      > discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a
                                      > five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for
                                      > hours,
                                      > and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • George Thomas
                                      Maybe there is (or isn t) a similarity between cultural and Gen-X-Entitled.   But since much of an intro course in anthro covers this topic, the most we
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 11, 2010
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                                        Maybe there is (or isn't) a similarity between "cultural" and "Gen-X-Entitled."  But since much of an intro course in anthro covers this topic, the most we can do is to clarify the rules, hit 'em over the head several times with those rules, all the while defining "adequate performance" is for a given class, then, if the "entitlement" thing continues, ....
                                        Flunk-em.
                                        Meanie
                                         
                                        Re: is it mean?
                                            Posted by: "Chuck & Gail Ellenbaum" ellenbaumbridge@... chuckellenbaum
                                            Date: Mon May 10, 2010 11:26 am ((PDT))

                                        This is priceless.  But to some of our more "entitled" students, the 
                                        sarcasm might pass by unrealized.

                                        Chuck Ellenbaum ><>

                                        On May 10, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Lori Barkley wrote:

                                        > OK, so this shows how far I am behind in my emails, but here is a 
                                        > great
                                        > poem from a Canadian working in academe that speaks directly to this.
                                        > Enjoy! (I like to quote from it during the semester...) Hope to see
                                        > you in Puerto Rico!
                                        > Lori
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Did I Miss Anything?
                                        > Tom Wayman
                                        >
                                        > Nothing. When we realized you weren’t here
                                        > we sat with our hands folded on our desks
                                        > in silence, for the full two hours
                                        > Everything. I gave an exam worth
                                        > 40 percent of the grade for this term
                                        > and assigned some reading due today
                                        > on which I’m about to hand out a quiz
                                        > worth 50 percent
                                        > Nothing. None of the content of this course
                                        > has value or meaning
                                        > Take as many days off as you like:
                                        > any activities we undertake as a class
                                        > I assure you will not matter either to you or me
                                        > and are without purpose
                                        > Everything. A few minutes after we began last time
                                        > a shaft of light suddenly descended and an angel
                                        > or other heavenly being appeared
                                        > and revealed to us what each woman or man must do
                                        > to attain divine wisdom in this life and
                                        > the hereafter
                                        > This is the last time the class will meet
                                        > before we disperse to bring the good news to all people
                                        > on earth.
                                        > Nothing. When you are not present
                                        > how could something significant occur?
                                        > Everything. Contained in this classroom
                                        > is a microcosm of human experience
                                        > assembled for you to query and examine and ponder
                                        > This is not the only place such an opportunity has been
                                        > gathered
                                        > but it was one place
                                        > And you weren’t here
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >>> "Lynch, Brian M" <blynch@...> 02/04/2010 5:40 pm >>>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This reminds me of my own gut feeling when a student, who hasn't been
                                        > to class for a week or more, comes to me very sincerely and matter of
                                        > factly and says "Sorry I wasn't here... I had to ________(fill in the
                                        > blank). Can you tell me what I missed?" (or "Did I miss anything?") 
                                        > Deep
                                        > inside I am tempted to say "No, since you weren't here we didn't do
                                        > anything in your absence." It is frustrating, and sometimes very
                                        > discouraging, to realize that a student might so off-handedly expect a
                                        > five minute catch-up on something that I might have prepared for 
                                        > hours,
                                        > and which took maybe three hours (or more) to explore in class.
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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