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student/prof expectations

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  • Bob Muckle
    I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite interesting. It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members. People s
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
      I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite interesting.

      It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members. People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness, difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.

      First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this: fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.

      You're welcome.

      Bob
    • Andrew J Petto
      Maybe cultural materialism is the answer, maybe it s political economy. I don t find students less well informed or less well behaved than 30 years ago, but I
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
        Maybe cultural materialism is the answer, maybe it's political economy. I don't find students less well informed or less well behaved than 30 years ago, but I do find that they are more likely to view themselves as "education consumers" than emerging scholars. I used to see this more in technical and community colleges than in universities where I taught, but for preprofessional students who make up the majority of my students these days, consumer is a better label than scholar. The idea that they may have to do something differently or engage different types of material seems to be anathema --- especially if it does not relate directly to what they are doing now.

        On the other hand, a quick read of the history of higher education shows that HE goes through cycles like this --- from practical to esoteric and back again.

        Anj

        ------------
        Andrew J Petto, PhD
        Senior Lecturer
        Department of Biological Sciences
        University of Wisconsin -- Milwaukee
        PO Box 413
        Milwaukee WI 53201-0413
        CapTel Line: 1-877-243-2823
        Telephone: 414-229-6784
        FAX: 414-229-3926
        https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/ajpetto/www/index.htm

        *************
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        "There is no word in the language that I revere more than teacher. None. My heart sings when a kid refers to me as his teacher and it always has."

        -- Pat Conroy
        The Prince of Tides

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bob Muckle" <bmuckle@...>
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, November 2, 2009 12:10:52 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
        Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations






        I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite interesting.

        It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members. People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness, difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.

        First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this: fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.

        You're welcome.

        Bob
      • Lewine, Mark
        I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware of them but expand their
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
          I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
          deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
          of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
          one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
          students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
          self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
          for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
          construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
          themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
          culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
          characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
          traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
          we so regularly denounce.

          I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
          forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
          process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
          (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
          what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
          techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
          offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
          in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
          both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
          begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.



          What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
          the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
          norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
          doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
          that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
          provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
          social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
          terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
          This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
          dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
          discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
          learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
          perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
          worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
          is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
          alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
          the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
          corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
          subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
          low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
          morons. Is that transparent bias clear?



          To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
          humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
          Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.



          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Bob Muckle
          Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations





          I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
          interesting.

          It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
          People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
          perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
          in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
          difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
          social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.

          First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
          it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
          fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
          start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.

          You're welcome.

          Bob





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hare II, William E
          I like where this discussion is going because is speaks to what I always thought was the purpose of education, especially community colleges, that is access
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
            I like where this discussion is going because is speaks to what I always thought was the purpose of education, especially community colleges, that is access for all to seek a better understanding of their world and their place in it. I certainly feel that I have (as well as my colleagues on this list) done my best to help my students find their own way towards this goal. But, to have to be told that it is necessary to read the text, or listen to the CDs, or attend class, seems to me like more than just generational passiveness (and certainly isn't a good use of money if we use the consumer model. I often ask students if they only have their mechanic complete ¾ spark plugs with their tune-up or their barber complete only half a haircut). Students have told me that my primary job is to assess what they have learned by giving out information and grading their exams. I have tried the following analogy for what I see is my role in education:



            I am a Sherpa. I have already been up the mountain a number of times, but ever climb is different. I can guide you up the mountain. I can offer advice. I can try to keep from danger and take care of your injuries. But, I can't carry you up the mountain. You have to climb it yourself.



            Will



            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lewine, Mark
            Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 2:02 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations





            I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
            deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
            of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
            one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
            students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
            self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
            for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
            construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
            themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
            culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
            characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
            traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
            we so regularly denounce.

            I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
            forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
            process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
            (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
            what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
            techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
            offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
            in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
            both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
            begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.

            What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
            the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
            norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
            doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
            that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
            provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
            social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
            terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
            This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
            dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
            discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
            learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
            perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
            worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
            is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
            alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
            the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
            corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
            subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
            low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
            morons. Is that transparent bias clear?

            To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
            humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
            Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.

            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
            Of Bob Muckle
            Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations

            I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
            interesting.

            It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
            People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
            perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
            in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
            difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
            social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.

            First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
            it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
            fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
            start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.

            You're welcome.

            Bob

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Philip Stein
            It is all too easy to be critical of the younger generation, an exercise with deep historical roots. We have to accept what is given us, try to understand it,
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
              It is all too easy to be critical of the younger generation, an exercise with deep historical roots. We have to accept what is given us, try to understand it, and then work with it. The students we see in class have grown up in an environment where parents overplan their activities (scheduled play dates, etc.) with children being driven from one activity to another. They are given an abundance of toys, most of which talk back to you. And they watch a lot of TV where the story line is broken by commercials into small sound bites.
               
              My wife just retired from as head of Occupation Therapy at the VA hospital. New therapiest came with master degrees and academic honors. But they had no idea how to schedule patients and create a treatment plan. They constantly would ask for a treatment protocal and someone to lead them step by step through their day. It took work to change this pattern, but it can be done and was.
               
              Now that I've taught a class online, I'm using the software (Moodle in this case) in all of my classes. I post my syllabus and assignments online, where students are quite comfortable, and have them submit their writing assignments online rather than on paper. And I very carefully spell out their responsibilities. But I definitely draw a line. I refuse to give them a study guide. Their job is to take notes and figure out what's important to learn. I'm moving to more and more writing assignments and more and more essays on exams.
               
              Some students catch on and some don't. But I do not blame the entire class. If I have only a small number of Bs and Cs on an exam, I teach to them. I may express disappointment, but I never punish them or spend prescious class time attempting to talk them into becoming good students. You're not going to reach all your students. As the say goes, "You can't teach a pig to sing. It can't be done and it annoys the pig."

              --- On Mon, 11/2/09, Hare II, William E <whare@...> wrote:


              From: Hare II, William E <whare@...>
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 11:33 AM


               



              I like where this discussion is going because is speaks to what I always thought was the purpose of education, especially community colleges, that is access for all to seek a better understanding of their world and their place in it. I certainly feel that I have (as well as my colleagues on this list) done my best to help my students find their own way towards this goal. But, to have to be told that it is necessary to read the text, or listen to the CDs, or attend class, seems to me like more than just generational passiveness (and certainly isn't a good use of money if we use the consumer model. I often ask students if they only have their mechanic complete ¾ spark plugs with their tune-up or their barber complete only half a haircut). Students have told me that my primary job is to assess what they have learned by giving out information and grading their exams. I have tried the following analogy for what I see is my role in education:

              I am a Sherpa. I have already been up the mountain a number of times, but ever climb is different. I can guide you up the mountain. I can offer advice. I can try to keep from danger and take care of your injuries. But, I can't carry you up the mountain. You have to climb it yourself.

              Will

              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Lewine, Mark
              Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 2:02 PM
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations

              I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
              deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
              of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
              one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
              students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
              self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
              for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
              construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
              themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
              culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
              characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
              traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
              we so regularly denounce.

              I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
              forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
              process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
              (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
              what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
              techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
              offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
              in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
              both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
              begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.

              What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
              the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
              norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
              doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
              that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
              provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
              social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
              terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
              This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
              dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
              discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
              learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
              perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
              worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
              is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
              alternative, the open-door community college...let' s continue to fight
              the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
              corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
              subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
              low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
              morons. Is that transparent bias clear?

              To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
              humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
              Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.

              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com <mailto:SACC- L%40yahoogroups. com> [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups. com <mailto:SACC- L%40yahoogroups. com> ] On Behalf
              Of Bob Muckle
              Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups. com <mailto:SACC- L%40yahoogroups. com>
              Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations

              I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
              interesting.

              It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
              People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
              perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
              in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
              difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
              social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.

              First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
              it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
              fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
              start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.

              You're welcome.

              Bob

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kent Morris
              what are your thoughts on high schools role in providing the preparation to learn this dialect? ... From: Lewine, Mark To:
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
                what are your thoughts on high schools' role in providing the preparation to
                learn this dialect?
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Lewine, Mark" <mark.lewine@...>
                To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:02 AM
                Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations


                >I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
                > deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
                > of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
                > one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
                > students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
                > self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
                > for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
                > construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
                > themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
                > culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
                > characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
                > traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
                > we so regularly denounce.
                >
                > I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
                > forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
                > process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
                > (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
                > what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
                > techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
                > offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
                > in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
                > both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
                > begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.
                >
                >
                >
                > What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
                > the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
                > norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
                > doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
                > that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
                > provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
                > social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
                > terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
                > This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
                > dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
                > discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
                > learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
                > perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
                > worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
                > is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
                > alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
                > the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
                > corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
                > subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
                > low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
                > morons. Is that transparent bias clear?
                >
                >
                >
                > To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
                > humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
                > Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.
                >
                >
                >
                > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of Bob Muckle
                > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
                > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
                > interesting.
                >
                > It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
                > People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
                > perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
                > in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
                > difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
                > social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.
                >
                > First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
                > it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
                > fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
                > start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.
                >
                > You're welcome.
                >
                > Bob
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                > Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Mark Lewine
                for most of my career, my average age in class was over 30 and high school was not the issue.Over the past few years, I have been trying to push a system
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 2, 2009
                  for most of my career, my average age in class was over 30 and high school was not the issue.Over the past few years, I have been trying to push a system whereby the last year of high school would be at the community college...but that has been changed by our Board of Regents in Ohio to high school teachers teaching college classes for credit and being adjunct with our community college...the union is fighting this for a variety of reasons and I feel that mixing the mandatory high school setting of resentful adolescents with college classes is a terrible cultural mix...our high school program with selected high schoolers mixing their last couple of years with some college courses with us has worked well.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Kent Morris
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:27 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations


                  what are your thoughts on high schools' role in providing the preparation to
                  learn this dialect?
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Lewine, Mark" <mark.lewine@...>
                  To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:02 AM
                  Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations

                  >I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
                  > deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
                  > of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
                  > one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
                  > students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
                  > self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
                  > for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
                  > construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
                  > themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
                  > culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
                  > characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
                  > traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
                  > we so regularly denounce.
                  >
                  > I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
                  > forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
                  > process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
                  > (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
                  > what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
                  > techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
                  > offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
                  > in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
                  > both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
                  > begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
                  > the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
                  > norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
                  > doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
                  > that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
                  > provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
                  > social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
                  > terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
                  > This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
                  > dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
                  > discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
                  > learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
                  > perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
                  > worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
                  > is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
                  > alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
                  > the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
                  > corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
                  > subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
                  > low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
                  > morons. Is that transparent bias clear?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
                  > humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
                  > Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of Bob Muckle
                  > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
                  > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
                  > interesting.
                  >
                  > It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
                  > People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
                  > perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
                  > in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
                  > difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
                  > social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.
                  >
                  > First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
                  > it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
                  > fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
                  > start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.
                  >
                  > You're welcome.
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo!
                  > Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Thomas Stevenson
                  I ve been following this discussion from the vantage point of a retired but still working point of view and fully intended to remain silent until I was drawn
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 3, 2009
                    I've been following this discussion from the vantage point of a retired
                    but still working point of view and fully intended to remain silent
                    until I was drawn in my Mark's comment on my style.

                    I know students are not what we would like them to be. For the most part
                    they don't care about what we think. They see the education process as
                    a step to a job or a better job. Where I am this job will usually be in
                    education, scary as that is for our grandchildren. While I do use "wry
                    humor" to tell students how badly prepared they are for this or any job,
                    they don't really understand that message - they get some of the humor
                    by not the underlying point. So I've turned to pointedly asking if they
                    think they could get away with the same behaviors they exhibit in class
                    on the job. I frequently ask students to write answers to a few review
                    questions are the beginning of class, prior to going over the answers.
                    Often students decide they don't have to do this because they came late,
                    were absent the day before, need to text, have to check up on facebook.
                    I circulate while people are supposed to be writing the answers - a
                    surprisingly difficult task for many considering most of the answers
                    should be in their notes. When I find someone not doing the work I make
                    them get the questions, put down the phone, open their book, etc. and
                    reinforce that with the comment that they're "I don't have to do this"
                    approach will not go far when they're in a job. Once the exercise is
                    done, I return to wry humor.

                    Thomas B. Stevenson, Ph.D.
                    Associate Professor, Anthropology
                    Ohio University, Zanesville Campus
                    1425 Newark Road
                    Zanesville, OH 43701
                    U.S.A.

                    740.588.1476 (O)
                    740.605.0115 (Cell)
                    740.453.0706 (FAX)
                    tstevens@...



                    Lewine, Mark wrote:
                    > I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
                    > deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
                    > of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
                    > one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
                    > students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
                    > self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
                    > for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
                    > construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
                    > themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
                    > culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
                    > characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
                    > traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
                    > we so regularly denounce.
                    >
                    > I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
                    > forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
                    > process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
                    > (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
                    > what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
                    > techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
                    > offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
                    > in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
                    > both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
                    > begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
                    > the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
                    > norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
                    > doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
                    > that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
                    > provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
                    > social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
                    > terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
                    > This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
                    > dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
                    > discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
                    > learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
                    > perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
                    > worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
                    > is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
                    > alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
                    > the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
                    > corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
                    > subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
                    > low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
                    > morons. Is that transparent bias clear?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
                    > humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
                    > Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of Bob Muckle
                    > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
                    > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
                    > interesting.
                    >
                    > It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
                    > People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
                    > perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
                    > in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
                    > difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
                    > social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.
                    >
                    > First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
                    > it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
                    > fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
                    > start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.
                    >
                    > You're welcome.
                    >
                    > Bob
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Find out more at our web page :http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/sacc/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • George Thomas
                    I hesitate to mention that, when we reach upper-division and graduate level anthro, concerns over whether students can write, think critically, study, and have
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 3, 2009
                      I hesitate to mention that, when we reach upper-division and graduate level anthro, concerns over whether students can write, think critically, study, and have self-motivation are no longer relevant. From my point of view, thinking way, way back, it seemed that such respect for undergraduate students as adults within a sort of sink-or-swim environment extended all the way to that ugly line between HS and college. I was certainly allowed to make mistakes and learn from them.  But I had a more-or-less 50s-60s upbringing, did not enjoy a highly structured childhood/adolescent activity schedule, was not driven regularly to soccer practice by my soccer mom, seldom "texted," and did not develop the attitude that professors would lead me by the nose through undergraduate courses.
                      Of my current crop of students (more on this "special environment" maybe later), few are what I might call "rubes and morons," although they did manage to "achieve" their current status for some reason.  Test results, while sometimes surprisingly good, come with unhealthy proportions of the need to watch for cheating, and by that I mean it's worse than "normal."  In many cases, individual personality problems that landed this "student body" where they are are more of a manipulative, aggressive and deceptive nature than any rube-ness or moron-icity.
                      What's interesting here is the commentary concerning students in today's "normal" environment, and my attempts to apply it all to my experience.  Perhaps some of the problems leading to that special, electronic-internet age sense of self-entitlement, and that assumption that instructors and professors are there to serve RATHER THAN to "nurture learning" and encourage self-motivation per the prevailing academic shift to academic dialects, comes from the same sources as do those leading to incarceration.
                      Even within that "special environment," keeping in mind what Phil said about the futility of teaching a pig to sing, there are still those few who manage to "get it." You can see it, especially when the "getting" of "it" matches the grades.  Manipulative skill extends to the art of appearing to "get it," even when that's not what's happening.
                      (Whose "emic" is our "etic," anyway?  Some even "get" that! -- or maybe I was witnessing cerebral meltdown.  I'll get back with you on that....)
                      So yes, all the comments on this thread make excellent points, but as college teachers we will always need to recognize that, regardless of cultural or economic circumstances of our varied bunches of students, the line below which we can be expected to "nurture" has to be a bit higher than it is before HS graduation.
                      G.T.
                       
                       
                          Posted by: "Mark Lewine" mlewine@... krameniwel
                          Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:54 pm ((PST))

                      for most of my career, my average age in class was over 30 and high school was not the issue.Over the past few years, I have been trying to push a system whereby the last year of high school would be at the community college...but that has been changed by our Board of Regents in Ohio to high school teachers teaching college classes for credit and being adjunct with our community college...the union is fighting this for a variety of reasons and I feel that mixing the mandatory high school setting of resentful adolescents with college classes is a terrible cultural mix...our high school program with selected high schoolers mixing their last couple of years with some college courses with us has worked well.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Kent Morris
                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:27 PM
                        Subject: 

                          what are your thoughts on high schools' role in providing the preparation to
                        learn this dialect?
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Lewine, Mark" <mark.lewine@...>
                        To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:02 AM
                        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations

                        >I agree completely that the remarks on this issue demonstrate
                        > deconstructed biases that each of us has. We ought to not only be aware
                        > of them but expand their depth through interchange with others. I, for
                        > one, find your characterization of this dialogue as entirely about
                        > students' inadequacies surprising. It is useless, mindless and
                        > self-serving justification for lazy education for a prof to find blame
                        > for students' inadequate behaviors. I continuously fight this
                        > construction by my administration and by my colleagues who think of
                        > themselves as gate-keepers to what Bloom used to call the knowledge
                        > culture that academics act as if we know and own. I wonder if we
                        > characterize our students in this way, how are we different from our
                        > traditional elitist university "colleagues" and of the AAA culture that
                        > we so regularly denounce.
                        >
                        > I was evidently inadequate in characterizing the problem as one of
                        > forgetting that our role is to create and engage the educational
                        > process, be learning facilitators or 'those who nurture learning'
                        > (educators defined by Ashley Montagu) rather than teachers, to find out
                        > what our students know and do not know by formative evaluation
                        > techniques. Only then should we select or create the process which we
                        > offer students in each class. Once we know the diversity of backgrounds
                        > in our students' demonstrated knowledge of terms and concepts related to
                        > both the subject and the learning expectations of college culture, we
                        > begin to select how and what to emphasize in our teaching.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > What you spoke about seems the traditional model of professor: owner of
                        > the subject material, gate-keeper of the academic culture and college
                        > norms. I say that comprehensive community colleges have opened the
                        > doors to people with various kinds of knowledge and dialects of English
                        > that explain their knowledge in non-academic ways. It is up to me to
                        > provide a process that helps them code-switch the knowledge gained of
                        > social behavior say as a waitress or bartender, to conceptual
                        > terminology and thinking that will pass the cultural test of academia.
                        > This is actually what the teacher in Oakland meant by learning the
                        > dialect of her students (called 'ebonics' in the later political
                        > discussion) so that she could find methods to help them code-switch and
                        > learn. To blame students for not already knowing the dialect, norms and
                        > perspectives of the middle class, of academia and of our subject, is
                        > worthy of a poor evaluation of our role and censure by colleagues. There
                        > is no cause, no effect, no solution. Only an educational system with one
                        > alternative, the open-door community college...let's continue to fight
                        > the attempt by all inside and outside of it to make us part of the
                        > corporate oligarchic system which needs irrelevant teachers of elitist
                        > subjects creating passive workers who will do what they are told with
                        > low self-esteem from a lifetime of being taught that they are rubes and
                        > morons. Is that transparent bias clear?

                        > To treat students as rubes and idiots can only be done well with wry
                        > humor by Tom Stevenson, who actually had a lifetime of them in southern
                        > Ohio...this can be confirmed by Diane.
                        >

                       
                         Posted by: "Philip Stein" stein39@... phil3900
                          Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 1:21 pm ((PST))

                      It is all too easy to be critical of the younger generation, an exercise with deep historical roots. We have to accept what is given us, try to understand it, and then work with it. The students we see in class have grown up in an environment where parents overplan their activities (scheduled play dates, etc.) with children being driven from one activity to another. They are given an abundance of toys, most of which talk back to you. And they watch a lot of TV where the story line is broken by commercials into small sound bites.
                       
                      My wife just retired from as head of Occupation Therapy at the VA hospital. New therapiest came with master degrees and academic honors. But they had no idea how to schedule patients and create a treatment plan. They constantly would ask for a treatment protocal and someone to lead them step by step through their day. It took work to change this pattern, but it can be done and was.
                       
                      Now that I've taught a class online, I'm using the software (Moodle in this case) in all of my classes. I post my syllabus and assignments online, where students are quite comfortable, and have them submit their writing assignments online rather than on paper. And I very carefully spell out their responsibilities. But I definitely draw a line. I refuse to give them a study guide. Their job is to take notes and figure out what's important to learn. I'm moving to more and more writing assignments and more and more essays on exams.
                       
                      Some students catch on and some don't. But I do not blame the entire class. If I have only a small number of Bs and Cs on an exam, I teach to them. I may express disappointment, but I never punish them or spend prescious class time attempting to talk them into becoming good students. You're not going to reach all your students. As the say goes, "You can't teach a pig to sing. It can't be done and it annoys the pig."

                        >
                        > From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        > Of Bob Muckle
                        > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:11 PM
                        > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [SACC-L] student/prof expectations
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I find all this talk about student and prof expecations quite
                        > interesting.
                        >
                        > It is like a case study in identifying theoretical bias of SACC members.
                        > People's favorite paradigms, or conceptual frameworks, or theoretical
                        > perspectives, or whatever we are calling them these days are leaking out
                        > in explanations of the current state of students' lack of preparedness,
                        > difficulties, and expectations. Blame it on the economy vs. blame it on
                        > social systems, vs blame it on ideological factors.
                        >
                        > First we should figure out if it is really a problem, then if we decide
                        > it is, then we can offer some solutions. I will begin by offering this:
                        > fix the economy, fix the social systems, and fix ideology. I suggest we
                        > start with the economy, but then again I like cultural materialism.
                        >
                        > You're welcome.
                        >
                        > Bob





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