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[SACC-L] Re: AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California

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  • Deborah Shepherd
    And how do we define gender? Does Prop 8 specify that the gender question is only concerned with biology? Could it be a social or psychological gender? We
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 10, 2008
      And how do we define gender? Does Prop 8 specify that the gender question is only concerned with biology? Could it be a social or psychological gender? We already recognize that one's race is what one claims it is. Shouldn't we be taken for our word as to our gender? Or do we have to submit DNA samples so that we can be checked for x and y chromosomes (which, of course, would be contradictory information in the case of someone having had sex-change surgery).

      Deborah Shepherd

      >>>
      From: "tadmci" <tadm@...>
      To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: 11/10/2008 3:08 PM
      Subject: [SACC-L] Re: AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California

      I brought up the 'how will they know' question in my gender and sex
      class today. My students looked at me like I was naive if not stupid.
      They said the government has records and will know the sex of the
      partners. (They cited tax records among others.) Any reaction?

      Tad McIlwraith



      --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, "bdlqvcc" <blynch@...> wrote:
      >
      > My question on this was actually prompted by having been aware of
      > restrictions prescribed by our AAA organization against doing
      > business in locations (cities, hotels etc.) engaged in some form of
      > discrimination or exploitation. (Recalling for example, a serious
      > disruption of annual meetings previously scheduled at a non-union
      > hotel that suddenly faced a workers' strike, and AAA avoidance of
      > cities that discriminated based on gender.)
      >
      > On another related note, it is interesting to compare (as has been
      > done in several blogs online) the 1940's statement of the LDS Church
      > on interracial marriage, and their position on 'same sex' marriage.
      > Also, it is quite interesting to see the LDS as one of the key
      > proponents of the situation as it unfolded in California, "in defense
      > of traditional marriage." I don't mean this in a meanspirited way--
      > it is just an interesting historical development, from a tradition
      > that itself had such a difficult time particularly around its own
      > standards of marriage and how these standards were rejected by the
      > wider US political scene.
      >
      >
      >
      > Brian
      >
      >
      > --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, mep1mep <mep1mep@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Actually, these questions came up in class and I didn't know the
      > answer, myself. I suspect the lawyers are going to have fun with
      > this mess.
      > >
      > > Pam
      > > pamthropologist
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: "Tbbyrnehom@" <Tbbyrnehom@>
      > > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 8:44:29 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Bryan, I have always wondered just how in the world society can
      > enforce
      > > a restriction that limits a marriage to one male and female at a
      > time. Will
      > > it ultimately come down to a physical examination of the partners?
      > What are
      > > the criteria that defines male and female? Can a hermaphrodite
      > choose
      > > either gender?
      > > I am surprised that lawyers have not been involved with this issue.
      > But
      > > maybe I don't understand all the legal issues here. Bill Byrne
      > > ************ **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes
      > and all other
      > > Holiday needs. Search Now.
      > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100000075x121279 2382x1200798498/
      > aol?redir= http://searchblo g.aol.com/ 2008/11/04/ happy-holidays-
      > from
      > > -aol-search/ ?ncid=emlcntusse ar00000001)
      > >
      >
    • Popplestone, Ann
      http://www.accordalliance.org/ http://www.intersexinitiative.org/law/index.html These links provide a little information on these questions. Basically, case
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 10, 2008
        http://www.accordalliance.org/



        http://www.intersexinitiative.org/law/index.html



        These links provide a little information on these questions. Basically, case law is scant and contradictory. If someone who is intersexed (hermaphrodite) or Trans-gendered is presenting as a particular sex and marries someone of the opposite sex, and no one tries to object, it will probably stand. Don't ask ,don't tell. Should such a marriage be challenged in court, usually by a partner seeking a divorce, it might or might not be considered legally valid. The decisions seem to vary with the mood of the judge and circumstances that brought the situation to a court's attention.



        If such a marriage is found to be invalid, the parties could, technically, be prosecuted for tax fraud if they filed joint returns etc.



        That said, most intersexed folks apparently don't try. Post-op transfolks can only legally marry partners different from their new sex. Except in Connecticut and Mass, of course.



        A few years ago in Ohio a Male-to-female transsexual who had had "top surgery" and a legal name change and revised birth certificate (from West Virginia; Ohio will not change them) tried to get a marriage license with his fiancé. They wound up in court where the judge demanded that he drop his pants. He refused (so would most folks). I think they finally got a license in another state.



        There are two couples in Ohio that consist of a post-op male-to-female and their "genetic girl" wives from before their transitions. There will be three after Fran (my spouse) finishes transitioning. Even under Ohio's strict Defense of Marriage law, such marriages retain their legality if they were performed prior to transition. The Liberty Council and other conservatively religious law groups sometimes say that they are interested in "protecting marriage" by invalidating any marriage that a trans-person is party to, but have not actually done anything. So far.





        Most of these groups maintain that sex = chromosomes and resist any type of nuance.



        Interestingly, some trans-folk get just as upset about folks who call themselves "genderqueer" and function in a grey area between the traditional genders. Some got all upset about Thomas Beatie, the transman who recently gave birth. They are just as invested in the "gender binary" as are the types of people that oppose gay or trans marriages.



        It's an interesting process of cultural change. American men and women have equal political and property rights, and are getting closer to occupational equality. As these differences become less pronounced it is interesting to see how other social differences are re-shaped.



        Cheers!





        Ann Popplestone AAB, BA, MA

        CCC Metro TLC



        216-987-3584

        FAX:330-867-6375

        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deborah Shepherd
        Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 4:33 PM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SACC-L] Re: AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California



        And how do we define gender? Does Prop 8 specify that the gender question is only concerned with biology? Could it be a social or psychological gender? We already recognize that one's race is what one claims it is. Shouldn't we be taken for our word as to our gender? Or do we have to submit DNA samples so that we can be checked for x and y chromosomes (which, of course, would be contradictory information in the case of someone having had sex-change surgery).

        Deborah Shepherd

        >>>
        From: "tadmci" <tadm@... <mailto:tadm%40shaw.ca> >
        To: <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
        Date: 11/10/2008 3:08 PM
        Subject: [SACC-L] Re: AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California

        I brought up the 'how will they know' question in my gender and sex
        class today. My students looked at me like I was naive if not stupid.
        They said the government has records and will know the sex of the
        partners. (They cited tax records among others.) Any reaction?

        Tad McIlwraith

        --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> , "bdlqvcc" <blynch@...> wrote:
        >
        > My question on this was actually prompted by having been aware of
        > restrictions prescribed by our AAA organization against doing
        > business in locations (cities, hotels etc.) engaged in some form of
        > discrimination or exploitation. (Recalling for example, a serious
        > disruption of annual meetings previously scheduled at a non-union
        > hotel that suddenly faced a workers' strike, and AAA avoidance of
        > cities that discriminated based on gender.)
        >
        > On another related note, it is interesting to compare (as has been
        > done in several blogs online) the 1940's statement of the LDS Church
        > on interracial marriage, and their position on 'same sex' marriage.
        > Also, it is quite interesting to see the LDS as one of the key
        > proponents of the situation as it unfolded in California, "in defense
        > of traditional marriage." I don't mean this in a meanspirited way--
        > it is just an interesting historical development, from a tradition
        > that itself had such a difficult time particularly around its own
        > standards of marriage and how these standards were rejected by the
        > wider US political scene.
        >
        >
        >
        > Brian
        >
        >
        > --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> , mep1mep <mep1mep@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Actually, these questions came up in class and I didn't know the
        > answer, myself. I suspect the lawyers are going to have fun with
        > this mess.
        > >
        > > Pam
        > > pamthropologist
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: "Tbbyrnehom@" <Tbbyrnehom@>
        > > To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 8:44:29 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [SACC-L] AAA, SACC and Prop 8 in California
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Bryan, I have always wondered just how in the world society can
        > enforce
        > > a restriction that limits a marriage to one male and female at a
        > time. Will
        > > it ultimately come down to a physical examination of the partners?
        > What are
        > > the criteria that defines male and female? Can a hermaphrodite
        > choose
        > > either gender?
        > > I am surprised that lawyers have not been involved with this issue.
        > But
        > > maybe I don't understand all the legal issues here. Bill Byrne
        > > ************ **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes
        > and all other
        > > Holiday needs. Search Now.
        > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100000075x121279 2382x1200798498/
        > aol?redir= http://searchblo g.aol.com/ 2008/11/04/ happy-holidays-
        > from
        > > -aol-search/ ?ncid=emlcntusse ar00000001)
        > >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tbbyrnehom@aol.com
        Thank you Ann for giving some light on the laws. Maybe in my next lifetime we can sort it all out. Bill Byrne **************AOL Search: Your one stop for
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 10, 2008
          Thank you Ann for giving some light on the laws. Maybe in my next lifetime
          we can sort it all out. Bill Byrne
          **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
          Holiday needs. Search Now.
          (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
          -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • anthropmor@AOL.COM
          In a message dated 11/10/2008 3:04:57 P.M. Central Standard Time, tadm@shaw.ca writes: I brought up the how will they know question in my gender and sex
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 11, 2008
            In a message dated 11/10/2008 3:04:57 P.M. Central Standard Time,
            tadm@... writes:

            I brought up the 'how will they know' question in my gender and sex
            class today. My students looked at me like I was naive if not stupid.
            They said the government has records and will know the sex of the
            partners. (They cited tax records among others.) Any reaction?




            this is usually the reaction I get at the beginning of my kinship lecture.
            Then they discover that the world is not the black and white, cut and dried ,
            everyone does it this way place they thought it was.
            Well, many of them do.
            Mike Pavlik
            **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
            Holiday needs. Search Now.
            (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
            -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • anthropmor@AOL.COM
            In a message dated 11/10/2008 6:13:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, ann.popplestone@tri-c.edu writes: Most of these groups maintain that sex = chromosomes and
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 11, 2008
              In a message dated 11/10/2008 6:13:46 P.M. Central Standard Time,
              ann.popplestone@... writes:

              Most of these groups maintain that sex = chromosomes and resist any type of
              nuance.



              and this goes along with John Grehans complaint about the chimp genetic
              material.
              And the uses of DNA in common speech.
              Mike Pavlik
              **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
              Holiday needs. Search Now.
              (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
              -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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