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Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

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  • Philip Stein
    We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we ve renamed the course Human Biological Evolution. So students know
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
      We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about, rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog; they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our field begins with an A!)

      I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept. Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion, Magic, and Witchcraft course.

      Phil


      anthropmor@... wrote:

      In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
      worleyk@... writes:

      They did so knowing that the course dealt with
      human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
      they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
      course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
      about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
      believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
      says about evolution


      Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
      Nicely written!
      Mike Pavlik


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
      Yahoo! Groups Links






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dianne Chidester
      I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many of my students don t understand the differences between science and religion. I use
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
        I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many
        of my students don't understand the differences between science and
        religion. I use the flow chart to demonstrate the scientific method and
        use recent news to show how it works. (I've been using the example of
        Celebrex and Vioxx as how the systems works. We keep doing experiments
        and when we realize there are problems, we revise or throw out and start
        over. This example works well because I can talk about how bias, in
        this case money, can corrupt the scientific method if we're not ethical
        scientists.)



        Then I go on to the characteristics of science, pseudoscience, and
        religion. Some students will try to argue with me trying to "prove
        God." Then I ask them, "If you have faith, why do you need proof?
        Isn't faith about not needing proof?"



        Science vs. religion: teach the difference, resolve the conflict -
        Special Issue: Science and Religion: Conflict or Conciliation?

        Skeptical Inquirer <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843> ,
        July-August, 1999
        <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_4_23> by Zoran
        Pazameta
        <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art&qt=%22Zoran+Pazameta%22>





        I'm trying to find the entire article online, but haven't been able to.
        I'll keep trying to find the charts he uses. If I can't find them, I'll
        type them and send them out if folks are interested.



        Cheers!

        Dianne





        ________________________________

        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Dorothy Davis DDBRUNER
        Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:57 AM
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



        Frank,
        I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way.
        When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I

        do first) I introduce the concept of three kinds of knowledge: Common
        sense knowledge, religious knowledge- based on faith- and scientific
        knowledge. I give examples and then proceed to explain the scientific
        method. There are usually no problems with this. When we get to
        evolution
        and someone begins to challenge it for religious reasons , I just point
        out that they are using religious knowledge and not scientific
        knowledge,
        and then I explain why. That seems to satisfy them (since they think
        that
        religious trumps scientific knowledge anyways).


        But then you may try the approach of one of my colleagues. She goes into

        class the first day with a big Intro to Physical text, holds it up and
        drops it on the floor several times.....a good start for explaining the
        scientific method and testibility and verifiability.

        Dorothy Davis
        Anthropology Department
        UNCG
        Tel- 256-1099

        "frank lagana" <frankL@...
        <mailto:frankL%40worldnet.att.net> >
        Sent by: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
        02/08/2007 11:15 PM
        Please respond to
        SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>

        To
        <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
        cc

        Subject
        Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...
        <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> >
        To: <blynch@... <mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu> >;
        <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
        Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

        > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
        > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
        > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
        > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
        > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
        >
        >
        Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
        this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
        thoughts
        on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
        example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
        today
        but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
        fossils
        are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
        fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding
        it
        increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
        course,
        the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle

        the
        situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking

        me
        out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
        also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
        After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student,
        and
        trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally

        abruptly ended the
        discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
        possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
        Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better

        way
        than I think I did tonight?

        Frank Lagana
        Dept of Social Sciences
        Queensborough Community College

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


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      • Lloyd Miller
        Regarding Frank s student who said, I m a Christian so I have to believe they re fakes, it might be helpful to show students that the majority of mainstream
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
          Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
          believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
          majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
          and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
          Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
          provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
          primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
          Lloyd



          On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

          > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
          > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
          > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
          > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
          > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
          > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
          > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
          > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
          > field begins with an A!)
          >
          > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
          > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
          > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
          > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
          > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
          > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
          > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
          > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
          > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
          >
          > Phil
          >
          > anthropmor@... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
          > worleyk@... writes:
          >
          > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
          > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
          > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
          > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
          > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
          > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
          > says about evolution
          >
          > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
          > Nicely written!
          > Mike Pavlik
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
          > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dianne Chidester
          One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the address works! http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168 In the interest of
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
            One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the
            address works!





            http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168



            "In the interest of teaching 'both sides,' I thought I'd give equal time
            to the theory of evolution..."



            Cheers!

            Dianne


            This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bdlqvcc
            To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a theology class; it is about science. Granted. But then, a student who says I m a Christian. I
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
              To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a
              theology class; it is about science. Granted.

              But then, a student who says "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in
              the science of evolution. I have to believe in the Biblical
              account," is either not accepting the fundamental premise that
              you/we have set in such a class--"we do science here"--or hasn't
              really thought about it yet and all its implications (such as "why
              am I in this class then, if I don't accept its basic foundation?")

              Mike, then, makes another point: "being a christian in general, does
              not require them not to believe in evolution." The
              objective "social fact" is that there are people all over the place
              who consider themeselves "good Christians," who also understand and
              accept the science of evolution. You could, of course, point this
              out to such a student who otherwise makes the matter of fact
              statement "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in evolution..." At
              least initially this may do no more for such a student than to
              confirm that there are lots of "lost Christians" out there!

              But then, as a cultural anthropologist, I often think of it this
              way: My task in such a class is to invite people into what for many
              might be a foreign "culture" (scientific anthropology). They are
              going to be invited and asked to explore, observe, and learn to
              understand this foreign culture, not to necessarily give up their
              own culture, but to be able, at least, to return to that culture
              with a better understanding of this one (the discipline of
              anthropology). It is what anthropology itself is about, and I have
              often thought about how my classes should model the discipline's
              approach.

              When we get in to this discussion it always makes me think of
              an "over the cubicle walls" discussion between two mentors of mine
              in grad school; one was a fairly liberal, Irish, Catholic priest and
              the other was Hindu. Both taught "theology." One day after about
              10 minutes of Santosh talking about some aspect of comparative
              religion and social justice, Fr. Paul commented over the
              wall, "Well, Toshi, for someone who believes none of this is real,
              you have an awful lot to say about it!" They both let out a roar of
              laughter (as did those of us in surrounding cubicles) and their rich
              theological discussion continued. He still spoke from his religious
              perspective, but with all the critical and scholarly acumen he was
              so well known for, and she from her equally respected background as
              a Hindu scholar.

              At the intro level it is sometimes difficult to imagine students
              somehow reaching this eventual level of skill, ability,
              understanding, and mutual respect (and many may not). But for me it
              is at least an important model that I keep in mind when I try to
              imagine what I am attempting to share (and why) with students.

              Brian


              --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, anthropmor@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
              > frankL@... writes:
              >
              > As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
              > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
              finding it
              > increasingly difficult to maintain
              >
              >
              > I know this situation well- when the fossils are attacked, I ask
              them to
              > explain living forms.
              >
              > My favorite tactic, however, is to ask them if they have seen
              an electron.
              > Then I explain that this class is just like physics- I don't
              care if they
              > believe in electrons in their hearts - here is the info we have
              amassed, and
              > that is what the class is about.
              > Also, being a christian in general, does not require them not
              to believe
              > in evolution.
              > Mike Pavlik
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Tbbyrnehom@aol.com
              Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application of technology and education for Anthropology. _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application
                of technology and education for Anthropology.
                _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_ (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/) clik on Journey of Mankind,
                from Oppenheimer's book on DNA showing the migration patterns around the world
                with a nice timeline.
                We have come a long way from the old overhead projector. And regarding
                teaching evolution to Biblical fundamentalist....I asked students if they can
                know something without believing it to be "TRUE". They always said yes. I told
                them I was teaching evolution as information and not testing them on what
                ever they believed. Bill Byrne, Happily retired.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Deborah Shepherd
                My sympathies. I ve been there. Believers can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                  My sympathies. I've been there. "Believers" can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the class--which is a point you shouldn't forget. I'll let any student have their say just once and to the point, if that makes them feel better. I try to focus on:
                  1. No one is required to take my class.
                  2. I teach science, not religion.
                  3. If her statement has to begin, "I believe," then it isn't science.
                  4. The other students have registered for (and paid for) a class in anthropology, so it is time to talk about anthropology.
                  5. All students in the class need to respect that your job (for which you are paid) is to teach them anthropology.

                  I have found that if I am firm, the other students, if they say anything, express relief (privately) that I finished that particularly discussion quickly. But there are always the worst-case scenarios.

                  Maybe your next lecture could start immediately with a review of scientific method: data, observations, and testable hypotheses. Or maybe you've done that already! Or you could have them all write an impromptu essay about why they are in the class and what they hope to learn. You may find the results encouraging, or amusing, if nothing else.

                  I keep telling myself, if I make just one of the "I'm religious" students think twice about evolution vs. their biblical certainties, then I've had success.

                  Deborah

                  >>> frankL@... 2/8/2007 10:15 PM >>>


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                  To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                  > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                  > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                  > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                  > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                  > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                  >
                  >
                  Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                  this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some thoughts
                  on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                  example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                  but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that fossils
                  are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                  fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                  increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of course,
                  the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle the
                  situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking me
                  out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                  also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                  After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student, and
                  trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                  abruptly ended the
                  discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                  possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                  Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better way
                  than I think I did tonight?

                  Frank Lagana
                  Dept of Social Sciences
                  Queensborough Community College





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Deborah Shepherd
                  That s a great idea! Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D. Anthropology and Sociology Anoka-Ramsey Community College Coon Rapids Campus email:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                    That's a great idea!

                    Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
                    Anthropology and Sociology
                    Anoka-Ramsey Community College
                    Coon Rapids Campus
                    email: deborah.shepherd@...
                    http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
                    new phone number: 763-433-1195

                    >>> mlewine@... 2/9/2007 5:54 AM >>>

                    I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in 'science education' with the Race Project moving around the country for the next several years. For example, most of my students with 'creationist' issues mystifying their ability to think in my courses are African-American and Latino with trust in ignorant clergy. When the Race Project comes to Cleveland, I am planning to invite groups of these clergy to view and discuss the exhibit information on the human genome and its significance as an 'anti-racist' educational source. This should begin to change their perspective on science and evolution. This is only one example of techniques we can discuss at our meeting for dealing with the problem that most of us face in teaching human origins.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Katrina Worley
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:35 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                    On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                    > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                    > been at
                    > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                    > thoughts
                    > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                    > For
                    > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                    > today
                    > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                    > fossils
                    > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                    > they're
                    > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                    > finding it
                    > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                    > course,
                    > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                    > handle the
                    > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                    > checking me
                    > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                    > country
                    > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                    > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                    > student, and
                    > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                    > finally
                    > abruptly ended the
                    > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                    > could
                    > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                    > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                    > better way
                    > than I think I did tonight?

                    I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                    and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                    population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                    handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                    first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                    students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                    course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                    human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                    they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                    course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                    about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                    believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                    says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                    evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                    science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                    issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                    convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                    retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                    may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                    Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                    question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                    think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                    during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                    hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                    student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                    a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                    bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                    student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                    God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                    a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                    idea.

                    Katrina

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Deborah Shepherd
                    Lloyd, For those of us who don t have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                      Lloyd,
                      For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web site.

                      Deborah

                      >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>

                      Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                      believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                      majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                      and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                      Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                      provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                      primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                      Lloyd

                      On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                      > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
                      > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
                      > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
                      > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
                      > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
                      > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
                      > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
                      > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
                      > field begins with an A!)
                      >
                      > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
                      > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
                      > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
                      > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
                      > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
                      > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
                      > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
                      > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
                      > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >
                      > anthropmor@... wrote:
                      >
                      > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                      > worleyk@... writes:
                      >
                      > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                      > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                      > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                      > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                      > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                      > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                      > says about evolution
                      >
                      > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                      > Nicely written!
                      > Mike Pavlik
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
                      > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                    • Lloyd Miller
                      Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I ll send it to you separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn t maintained their SACC Notes issues
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 11, 2007
                        Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I'll send it to you
                        separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn't
                        maintained their SACC Notes issues in gold-embossed, leather-bound
                        volumes.).
                        Lloyd



                        On Feb 9, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

                        > Lloyd,
                        > For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do
                        > you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us
                        > privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len
                        > doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web
                        > site.
                        >
                        > Deborah
                        >
                        > >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>
                        >
                        > Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                        > believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                        > majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                        > and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                        > Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                        > provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                        > primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                        > Lloyd



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