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RE: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

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  • Wenzel, Jason
    I am interested in attending this year s annual meeting (it will be my first). I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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      I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my first).

      I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

      Jason

      Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
      Florida

      ________________________________

      From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
      Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
      To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



      It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
      fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
      has exceptional security.

      Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
      we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
      descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
      theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
      also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

      Deborah

      Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
      Anthropology and Sociology
      Anoka-Ramsey Community College
      Coon Rapids Campus
      email: deborah.shepherd@... <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
      http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/ <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
      new phone number: 763-433-1195

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Lewine
      Looking forward to meeting you at the conference, Jason, let me or Rob Edwards know if you have any questions that might help. Mark Lewine, VP Membership
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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        Looking forward to meeting you at the conference, Jason, let me or Rob Edwards know if you have any questions that might help. Mark Lewine, VP Membership redwards@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Wenzel, Jason
        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 4:56 PM
        Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


        I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my first).

        I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

        Jason

        Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
        Florida

        ________________________________

        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
        Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
        To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

        It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
        fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
        has exceptional security.

        Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
        we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
        descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
        theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
        also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

        Deborah

        Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
        Anthropology and Sociology
        Anoka-Ramsey Community College
        Coon Rapids Campus
        email: deborah.shepherd@... <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
        http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/ <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
        new phone number: 763-433-1195

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deborah Shepherd
        This is an interesting idea, Jason. We re a small group, so maybe a panel discussion with audience input could work. You ll have a better idea when you get
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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          This is an interesting idea, Jason. We're a small group, so maybe a
          panel discussion with audience input could work. You'll have a better
          idea when you get there. I bet that you could get an impromptu
          discussion going this year, but something more formal could also be put
          into the schedule for next year. Just some thoughts of mine. This
          meeting will only be my second(!)

          See you there,
          Deborah

          Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
          Anthropology and Sociology
          Anoka-Ramsey Community College
          Coon Rapids Campus
          email: deborah.shepherd@...
          http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
          new phone number: 763-433-1195
          >>> wenzelj@... 02/07/07 3:56 PM >>>
          I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my
          first).

          I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group
          addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

          Jason

          Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
          Florida

          ________________________________

          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
          Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
          To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



          It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
          fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
          has exceptional security.

          Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
          we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
          descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
          theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
          also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

          Deborah

          Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
          Anthropology and Sociology
          Anoka-Ramsey Community College
          Coon Rapids Campus
          email: deborah.shepherd@...
          <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
          http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
          <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
          new phone number: 763-433-1195

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rls@linkline.com
          Since I m still putting the program together for this year, I could try to work this in. Jason -- are you volunteering to chair the session? :) --Becky ...
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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            Since I'm still putting the program together for this year, I could try to
            work this in.

            Jason -- are you volunteering to chair the session? :)

            --Becky




            -----Original Message-----
            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Deborah Shepherd
            Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:40 PM
            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



            This is an interesting idea, Jason. We're a small group, so maybe a
            panel discussion with audience input could work. You'll have a better
            idea when you get there. I bet that you could get an impromptu
            discussion going this year, but something more formal could also be put
            into the schedule for next year. Just some thoughts of mine. This
            meeting will only be my second(!)

            See you there,
            Deborah

            Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
            Anthropology and Sociology
            Anoka-Ramsey Community College
            Coon Rapids Campus
            email: deborah.shepherd@ <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
            anokaramsey.edu
            http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
            anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
            new phone number: 763-433-1195
            >>> wenzelj@brevardcc. <mailto:wenzelj%40brevardcc.edu> edu 02/07/07 3:56 PM
            >>>
            I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my
            first).

            I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group
            addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

            Jason

            Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
            Florida

            ________________________________

            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> com on behalf of
            Deborah Shepherd
            Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
            To: blynch@qvcc. <mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu> commnet.edu;
            SACC-L@yahoogroups. <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> com
            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

            It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
            fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
            has exceptional security.

            Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
            we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
            descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
            theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
            also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

            Deborah

            Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
            Anthropology and Sociology
            Anoka-Ramsey Community College
            Coon Rapids Campus
            email: deborah.shepherd@ <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
            anokaramsey.edu
            <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
            http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
            anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
            <http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
            anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
            new phone number: 763-433-1195

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • frank lagana
            ... From: Deborah Shepherd To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 8, 2007
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
              To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


              > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
              > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
              > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
              > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
              > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
              >
              >
              Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
              this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some thoughts
              on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
              example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
              but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that fossils
              are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
              fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
              increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of course,
              the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle the
              situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking me
              out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
              also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
              After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student, and
              trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
              abruptly ended the
              discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
              possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
              Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better way
              than I think I did tonight?

              Frank Lagana
              Dept of Social Sciences
              Queensborough Community College
            • Katrina Worley
              ... I ve had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large population of
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 8, 2007
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                On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                > been at
                > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                > thoughts
                > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                > For
                > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                > today
                > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                > fossils
                > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                > they're
                > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                > finding it
                > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                > course,
                > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                > handle the
                > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                > checking me
                > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                > country
                > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                > student, and
                > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                > finally
                > abruptly ended the
                > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                > could
                > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                > better way
                > than I think I did tonight?

                I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                idea.

                Katrina

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mark Lewine
                I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in science education with the Race Project moving around the country for the
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                  I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in 'science education' with the Race Project moving around the country for the next several years. For example, most of my students with 'creationist' issues mystifying their ability to think in my courses are African-American and Latino with trust in ignorant clergy. When the Race Project comes to Cleveland, I am planning to invite groups of these clergy to view and discuss the exhibit information on the human genome and its significance as an 'anti-racist' educational source. This should begin to change their perspective on science and evolution. This is only one example of techniques we can discuss at our meeting for dealing with the problem that most of us face in teaching human origins.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Katrina Worley
                  To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:35 AM
                  Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


                  On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                  > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                  > been at
                  > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                  > thoughts
                  > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                  > For
                  > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                  > today
                  > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                  > fossils
                  > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                  > they're
                  > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                  > finding it
                  > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                  > course,
                  > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                  > handle the
                  > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                  > checking me
                  > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                  > country
                  > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                  > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                  > student, and
                  > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                  > finally
                  > abruptly ended the
                  > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                  > could
                  > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                  > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                  > better way
                  > than I think I did tonight?

                  I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                  and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                  population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                  handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                  first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                  students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                  course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                  human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                  they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                  course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                  about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                  believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                  says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                  evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                  science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                  issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                  convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                  retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                  may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                  Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                  question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                  think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                  during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                  hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                  student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                  a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                  bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                  student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                  God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                  a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                  idea.

                  Katrina

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • anthropmor@AOL.COM
                  In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, frankL@worldnet.att.net writes: As she put it, I m a Christian so I have to believe they re
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                    In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                    frankL@... writes:

                    As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                    fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                    increasingly difficult to maintain


                    I know this situation well- when the fossils are attacked, I ask them to
                    explain living forms.

                    My favorite tactic, however, is to ask them if they have seen an electron.
                    Then I explain that this class is just like physics- I don't care if they
                    believe in electrons in their hearts - here is the info we have amassed, and
                    that is what the class is about.
                    Also, being a christian in general, does not require them not to believe
                    in evolution.
                    Mike Pavlik


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • anthropmor@AOL.COM
                    In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, worleyk@gmail.com writes: They did so knowing that the course dealt with human evolution. I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                      worleyk@... writes:

                      They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                      human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                      they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                      course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                      about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                      believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                      says about evolution


                      Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                      Nicely written!
                      Mike Pavlik


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dorothy Davis DDBRUNER
                      Frank, I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way. When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I do first) I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                        Frank,
                        I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way.
                        When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I
                        do first) I introduce the concept of three kinds of knowledge: Common
                        sense knowledge, religious knowledge- based on faith- and scientific
                        knowledge. I give examples and then proceed to explain the scientific
                        method. There are usually no problems with this. When we get to evolution
                        and someone begins to challenge it for religious reasons , I just point
                        out that they are using religious knowledge and not scientific knowledge,
                        and then I explain why. That seems to satisfy them (since they think that
                        religious trumps scientific knowledge anyways).


                        But then you may try the approach of one of my colleagues. She goes into
                        class the first day with a big Intro to Physical text, holds it up and
                        drops it on the floor several times.....a good start for explaining the
                        scientific method and testibility and verifiability.

                        Dorothy Davis
                        Anthropology Department
                        UNCG
                        Tel- 256-1099



                        "frank lagana" <frankL@...>
                        Sent by: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                        02/08/2007 11:15 PM
                        Please respond to
                        SACC-L@yahoogroups.com


                        To
                        <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                        cc

                        Subject
                        Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today







                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                        To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                        > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                        > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                        > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                        > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                        > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                        >
                        >
                        Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                        this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                        thoughts
                        on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                        example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                        but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                        fossils
                        are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                        fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                        increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                        course,
                        the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle
                        the
                        situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking
                        me
                        out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                        also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                        After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student,
                        and
                        trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                        abruptly ended the
                        discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                        possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                        Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better
                        way
                        than I think I did tonight?

                        Frank Lagana
                        Dept of Social Sciences
                        Queensborough Community College




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Philip Stein
                        We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we ve renamed the course Human Biological Evolution. So students know
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                          We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about, rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog; they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our field begins with an A!)

                          I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept. Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion, Magic, and Witchcraft course.

                          Phil


                          anthropmor@... wrote:

                          In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                          worleyk@... writes:

                          They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                          human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                          they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                          course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                          about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                          believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                          says about evolution


                          Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                          Nicely written!
                          Mike Pavlik


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dianne Chidester
                          I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many of my students don t understand the differences between science and religion. I use
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                            I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many
                            of my students don't understand the differences between science and
                            religion. I use the flow chart to demonstrate the scientific method and
                            use recent news to show how it works. (I've been using the example of
                            Celebrex and Vioxx as how the systems works. We keep doing experiments
                            and when we realize there are problems, we revise or throw out and start
                            over. This example works well because I can talk about how bias, in
                            this case money, can corrupt the scientific method if we're not ethical
                            scientists.)



                            Then I go on to the characteristics of science, pseudoscience, and
                            religion. Some students will try to argue with me trying to "prove
                            God." Then I ask them, "If you have faith, why do you need proof?
                            Isn't faith about not needing proof?"



                            Science vs. religion: teach the difference, resolve the conflict -
                            Special Issue: Science and Religion: Conflict or Conciliation?

                            Skeptical Inquirer <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843> ,
                            July-August, 1999
                            <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_4_23> by Zoran
                            Pazameta
                            <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art&qt=%22Zoran+Pazameta%22>





                            I'm trying to find the entire article online, but haven't been able to.
                            I'll keep trying to find the charts he uses. If I can't find them, I'll
                            type them and send them out if folks are interested.



                            Cheers!

                            Dianne





                            ________________________________

                            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Dorothy Davis DDBRUNER
                            Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:57 AM
                            To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



                            Frank,
                            I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way.
                            When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I

                            do first) I introduce the concept of three kinds of knowledge: Common
                            sense knowledge, religious knowledge- based on faith- and scientific
                            knowledge. I give examples and then proceed to explain the scientific
                            method. There are usually no problems with this. When we get to
                            evolution
                            and someone begins to challenge it for religious reasons , I just point
                            out that they are using religious knowledge and not scientific
                            knowledge,
                            and then I explain why. That seems to satisfy them (since they think
                            that
                            religious trumps scientific knowledge anyways).


                            But then you may try the approach of one of my colleagues. She goes into

                            class the first day with a big Intro to Physical text, holds it up and
                            drops it on the floor several times.....a good start for explaining the
                            scientific method and testibility and verifiability.

                            Dorothy Davis
                            Anthropology Department
                            UNCG
                            Tel- 256-1099

                            "frank lagana" <frankL@...
                            <mailto:frankL%40worldnet.att.net> >
                            Sent by: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                            02/08/2007 11:15 PM
                            Please respond to
                            SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>

                            To
                            <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
                            cc

                            Subject
                            Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...
                            <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> >
                            To: <blynch@... <mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu> >;
                            <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                            > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                            > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                            > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                            > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                            > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                            >
                            >
                            Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                            this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                            thoughts
                            on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                            example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                            today
                            but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                            fossils
                            are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                            fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding
                            it
                            increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                            course,
                            the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle

                            the
                            situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking

                            me
                            out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                            also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                            After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student,
                            and
                            trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally

                            abruptly ended the
                            discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                            possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                            Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better

                            way
                            than I think I did tonight?

                            Frank Lagana
                            Dept of Social Sciences
                            Queensborough Community College

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lloyd Miller
                            Regarding Frank s student who said, I m a Christian so I have to believe they re fakes, it might be helpful to show students that the majority of mainstream
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                              Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                              believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                              majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                              and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                              Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                              provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                              primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                              Lloyd



                              On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                              > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
                              > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
                              > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
                              > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
                              > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
                              > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
                              > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
                              > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
                              > field begins with an A!)
                              >
                              > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
                              > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
                              > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
                              > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
                              > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
                              > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
                              > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
                              > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
                              > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
                              >
                              > Phil
                              >
                              > anthropmor@... wrote:
                              >
                              > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                              > worleyk@... writes:
                              >
                              > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                              > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                              > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                              > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                              > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                              > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                              > says about evolution
                              >
                              > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                              > Nicely written!
                              > Mike Pavlik
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
                              > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dianne Chidester
                              One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the address works! http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168 In the interest of
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the
                                address works!





                                http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168



                                "In the interest of teaching 'both sides,' I thought I'd give equal time
                                to the theory of evolution..."



                                Cheers!

                                Dianne


                                This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bdlqvcc
                                To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a theology class; it is about science. Granted. But then, a student who says I m a Christian. I
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                  To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a
                                  theology class; it is about science. Granted.

                                  But then, a student who says "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in
                                  the science of evolution. I have to believe in the Biblical
                                  account," is either not accepting the fundamental premise that
                                  you/we have set in such a class--"we do science here"--or hasn't
                                  really thought about it yet and all its implications (such as "why
                                  am I in this class then, if I don't accept its basic foundation?")

                                  Mike, then, makes another point: "being a christian in general, does
                                  not require them not to believe in evolution." The
                                  objective "social fact" is that there are people all over the place
                                  who consider themeselves "good Christians," who also understand and
                                  accept the science of evolution. You could, of course, point this
                                  out to such a student who otherwise makes the matter of fact
                                  statement "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in evolution..." At
                                  least initially this may do no more for such a student than to
                                  confirm that there are lots of "lost Christians" out there!

                                  But then, as a cultural anthropologist, I often think of it this
                                  way: My task in such a class is to invite people into what for many
                                  might be a foreign "culture" (scientific anthropology). They are
                                  going to be invited and asked to explore, observe, and learn to
                                  understand this foreign culture, not to necessarily give up their
                                  own culture, but to be able, at least, to return to that culture
                                  with a better understanding of this one (the discipline of
                                  anthropology). It is what anthropology itself is about, and I have
                                  often thought about how my classes should model the discipline's
                                  approach.

                                  When we get in to this discussion it always makes me think of
                                  an "over the cubicle walls" discussion between two mentors of mine
                                  in grad school; one was a fairly liberal, Irish, Catholic priest and
                                  the other was Hindu. Both taught "theology." One day after about
                                  10 minutes of Santosh talking about some aspect of comparative
                                  religion and social justice, Fr. Paul commented over the
                                  wall, "Well, Toshi, for someone who believes none of this is real,
                                  you have an awful lot to say about it!" They both let out a roar of
                                  laughter (as did those of us in surrounding cubicles) and their rich
                                  theological discussion continued. He still spoke from his religious
                                  perspective, but with all the critical and scholarly acumen he was
                                  so well known for, and she from her equally respected background as
                                  a Hindu scholar.

                                  At the intro level it is sometimes difficult to imagine students
                                  somehow reaching this eventual level of skill, ability,
                                  understanding, and mutual respect (and many may not). But for me it
                                  is at least an important model that I keep in mind when I try to
                                  imagine what I am attempting to share (and why) with students.

                                  Brian


                                  --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, anthropmor@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                                  > frankL@... writes:
                                  >
                                  > As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                                  > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                                  finding it
                                  > increasingly difficult to maintain
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I know this situation well- when the fossils are attacked, I ask
                                  them to
                                  > explain living forms.
                                  >
                                  > My favorite tactic, however, is to ask them if they have seen
                                  an electron.
                                  > Then I explain that this class is just like physics- I don't
                                  care if they
                                  > believe in electrons in their hearts - here is the info we have
                                  amassed, and
                                  > that is what the class is about.
                                  > Also, being a christian in general, does not require them not
                                  to believe
                                  > in evolution.
                                  > Mike Pavlik
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Tbbyrnehom@aol.com
                                  Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application of technology and education for Anthropology. _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                    Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application
                                    of technology and education for Anthropology.
                                    _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_ (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/) clik on Journey of Mankind,
                                    from Oppenheimer's book on DNA showing the migration patterns around the world
                                    with a nice timeline.
                                    We have come a long way from the old overhead projector. And regarding
                                    teaching evolution to Biblical fundamentalist....I asked students if they can
                                    know something without believing it to be "TRUE". They always said yes. I told
                                    them I was teaching evolution as information and not testing them on what
                                    ever they believed. Bill Byrne, Happily retired.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Deborah Shepherd
                                    My sympathies. I ve been there. Believers can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      My sympathies. I've been there. "Believers" can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the class--which is a point you shouldn't forget. I'll let any student have their say just once and to the point, if that makes them feel better. I try to focus on:
                                      1. No one is required to take my class.
                                      2. I teach science, not religion.
                                      3. If her statement has to begin, "I believe," then it isn't science.
                                      4. The other students have registered for (and paid for) a class in anthropology, so it is time to talk about anthropology.
                                      5. All students in the class need to respect that your job (for which you are paid) is to teach them anthropology.

                                      I have found that if I am firm, the other students, if they say anything, express relief (privately) that I finished that particularly discussion quickly. But there are always the worst-case scenarios.

                                      Maybe your next lecture could start immediately with a review of scientific method: data, observations, and testable hypotheses. Or maybe you've done that already! Or you could have them all write an impromptu essay about why they are in the class and what they hope to learn. You may find the results encouraging, or amusing, if nothing else.

                                      I keep telling myself, if I make just one of the "I'm religious" students think twice about evolution vs. their biblical certainties, then I've had success.

                                      Deborah

                                      >>> frankL@... 2/8/2007 10:15 PM >>>


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                                      To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                                      > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                                      > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                                      > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                                      > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                                      > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                                      this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some thoughts
                                      on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                                      example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                                      but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that fossils
                                      are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                                      fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                                      increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of course,
                                      the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle the
                                      situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking me
                                      out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                                      also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                                      After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student, and
                                      trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                                      abruptly ended the
                                      discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                                      possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                                      Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better way
                                      than I think I did tonight?

                                      Frank Lagana
                                      Dept of Social Sciences
                                      Queensborough Community College





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Deborah Shepherd
                                      That s a great idea! Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D. Anthropology and Sociology Anoka-Ramsey Community College Coon Rapids Campus email:
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        That's a great idea!

                                        Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
                                        Anthropology and Sociology
                                        Anoka-Ramsey Community College
                                        Coon Rapids Campus
                                        email: deborah.shepherd@...
                                        http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
                                        new phone number: 763-433-1195

                                        >>> mlewine@... 2/9/2007 5:54 AM >>>

                                        I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in 'science education' with the Race Project moving around the country for the next several years. For example, most of my students with 'creationist' issues mystifying their ability to think in my courses are African-American and Latino with trust in ignorant clergy. When the Race Project comes to Cleveland, I am planning to invite groups of these clergy to view and discuss the exhibit information on the human genome and its significance as an 'anti-racist' educational source. This should begin to change their perspective on science and evolution. This is only one example of techniques we can discuss at our meeting for dealing with the problem that most of us face in teaching human origins.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Katrina Worley
                                        To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:35 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                                        On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                                        > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                                        > been at
                                        > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                                        > thoughts
                                        > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                                        > For
                                        > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                                        > today
                                        > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                                        > fossils
                                        > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                                        > they're
                                        > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                                        > finding it
                                        > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                                        > course,
                                        > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                                        > handle the
                                        > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                                        > checking me
                                        > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                                        > country
                                        > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                                        > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                                        > student, and
                                        > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                                        > finally
                                        > abruptly ended the
                                        > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                                        > could
                                        > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                                        > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                                        > better way
                                        > than I think I did tonight?

                                        I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                                        and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                                        population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                                        handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                                        first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                                        students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                                        course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                                        human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                                        they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                                        course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                                        about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                                        believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                                        says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                                        evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                                        science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                                        issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                                        convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                                        retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                                        may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                                        Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                                        question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                                        think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                                        during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                                        hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                                        student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                                        a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                                        bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                                        student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                                        God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                                        a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                                        idea.

                                        Katrina

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Deborah Shepherd
                                        Lloyd, For those of us who don t have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Lloyd,
                                          For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web site.

                                          Deborah

                                          >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>

                                          Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                                          believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                                          majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                                          and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                                          Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                                          provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                                          primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                                          Lloyd

                                          On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                                          > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
                                          > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
                                          > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
                                          > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
                                          > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
                                          > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
                                          > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
                                          > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
                                          > field begins with an A!)
                                          >
                                          > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
                                          > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
                                          > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
                                          > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
                                          > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
                                          > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
                                          > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
                                          > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
                                          > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
                                          >
                                          > Phil
                                          >
                                          > anthropmor@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                                          > worleyk@... writes:
                                          >
                                          > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                                          > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                                          > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                                          > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                                          > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                                          > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                                          > says about evolution
                                          >
                                          > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                                          > Nicely written!
                                          > Mike Pavlik
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
                                          > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Lloyd Miller
                                          Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I ll send it to you separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn t maintained their SACC Notes issues
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 11, 2007
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                                            Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I'll send it to you
                                            separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn't
                                            maintained their SACC Notes issues in gold-embossed, leather-bound
                                            volumes.).
                                            Lloyd



                                            On Feb 9, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

                                            > Lloyd,
                                            > For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do
                                            > you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us
                                            > privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len
                                            > doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web
                                            > site.
                                            >
                                            > Deborah
                                            >
                                            > >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>
                                            >
                                            > Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                                            > believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                                            > majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                                            > and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                                            > Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                                            > provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                                            > primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                                            > Lloyd



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