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Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

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  • Deborah Shepherd
    It s sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum has
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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      It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
      fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
      has exceptional security.

      Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
      we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
      descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
      theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
      also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

      Deborah

      Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
      Anthropology and Sociology
      Anoka-Ramsey Community College
      Coon Rapids Campus
      email: deborah.shepherd@...
      http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
      new phone number: 763-433-1195


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Wenzel, Jason
      I am interested in attending this year s annual meeting (it will be my first). I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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        I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my first).

        I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

        Jason

        Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
        Florida

        ________________________________

        From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
        Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
        To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



        It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
        fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
        has exceptional security.

        Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
        we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
        descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
        theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
        also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

        Deborah

        Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
        Anthropology and Sociology
        Anoka-Ramsey Community College
        Coon Rapids Campus
        email: deborah.shepherd@... <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
        http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/ <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
        new phone number: 763-433-1195

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark Lewine
        Looking forward to meeting you at the conference, Jason, let me or Rob Edwards know if you have any questions that might help. Mark Lewine, VP Membership
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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          Looking forward to meeting you at the conference, Jason, let me or Rob Edwards know if you have any questions that might help. Mark Lewine, VP Membership redwards@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Wenzel, Jason
          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 4:56 PM
          Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


          I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my first).

          I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

          Jason

          Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
          Florida

          ________________________________

          From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
          Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
          To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

          It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
          fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
          has exceptional security.

          Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
          we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
          descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
          theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
          also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

          Deborah

          Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
          Anthropology and Sociology
          Anoka-Ramsey Community College
          Coon Rapids Campus
          email: deborah.shepherd@... <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
          http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/ <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
          new phone number: 763-433-1195

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Deborah Shepherd
          This is an interesting idea, Jason. We re a small group, so maybe a panel discussion with audience input could work. You ll have a better idea when you get
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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            This is an interesting idea, Jason. We're a small group, so maybe a
            panel discussion with audience input could work. You'll have a better
            idea when you get there. I bet that you could get an impromptu
            discussion going this year, but something more formal could also be put
            into the schedule for next year. Just some thoughts of mine. This
            meeting will only be my second(!)

            See you there,
            Deborah

            Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
            Anthropology and Sociology
            Anoka-Ramsey Community College
            Coon Rapids Campus
            email: deborah.shepherd@...
            http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
            new phone number: 763-433-1195
            >>> wenzelj@... 02/07/07 3:56 PM >>>
            I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my
            first).

            I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group
            addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

            Jason

            Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
            Florida

            ________________________________

            From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Deborah Shepherd
            Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
            To: blynch@...; SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



            It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
            fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
            has exceptional security.

            Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
            we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
            descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
            theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
            also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

            Deborah

            Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
            Anthropology and Sociology
            Anoka-Ramsey Community College
            Coon Rapids Campus
            email: deborah.shepherd@...
            <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
            http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
            <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
            new phone number: 763-433-1195

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rls@linkline.com
            Since I m still putting the program together for this year, I could try to work this in. Jason -- are you volunteering to chair the session? :) --Becky ...
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 7, 2007
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              Since I'm still putting the program together for this year, I could try to
              work this in.

              Jason -- are you volunteering to chair the session? :)

              --Becky




              -----Original Message-----
              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Deborah Shepherd
              Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:40 PM
              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



              This is an interesting idea, Jason. We're a small group, so maybe a
              panel discussion with audience input could work. You'll have a better
              idea when you get there. I bet that you could get an impromptu
              discussion going this year, but something more formal could also be put
              into the schedule for next year. Just some thoughts of mine. This
              meeting will only be my second(!)

              See you there,
              Deborah

              Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
              Anthropology and Sociology
              Anoka-Ramsey Community College
              Coon Rapids Campus
              email: deborah.shepherd@ <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
              anokaramsey.edu
              http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
              anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
              new phone number: 763-433-1195
              >>> wenzelj@brevardcc. <mailto:wenzelj%40brevardcc.edu> edu 02/07/07 3:56 PM
              >>>
              I am interested in attending this year's annual meeting (it will be my
              first).

              I would really like to see some sort of workshop or focus group
              addressing fundamentalism/religion/evolution in the classroom.

              Jason

              Valencia & Brevard Community Colleges
              Florida

              ________________________________

              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups. <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> com on behalf of
              Deborah Shepherd
              Sent: Wed 2/7/2007 2:17 PM
              To: blynch@qvcc. <mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu> commnet.edu;
              SACC-L@yahoogroups. <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> com
              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

              It's sad to have to worry about the safety of some of our most important
              fossils while in their own homeland of Kenya. One hopes that the museum
              has exceptional security.

              Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
              we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
              descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
              theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
              also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.

              Deborah

              Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
              Anthropology and Sociology
              Anoka-Ramsey Community College
              Coon Rapids Campus
              email: deborah.shepherd@ <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
              anokaramsey.edu
              <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu>
              http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
              anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
              <http://webs. <http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
              anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/>
              new phone number: 763-433-1195

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • frank lagana
              ... From: Deborah Shepherd To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


                > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                >
                >
                Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some thoughts
                on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that fossils
                are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of course,
                the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle the
                situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking me
                out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student, and
                trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                abruptly ended the
                discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better way
                than I think I did tonight?

                Frank Lagana
                Dept of Social Sciences
                Queensborough Community College
              • Katrina Worley
                ... I ve had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large population of
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 8, 2007
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                  On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                  > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                  > been at
                  > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                  > thoughts
                  > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                  > For
                  > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                  > today
                  > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                  > fossils
                  > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                  > they're
                  > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                  > finding it
                  > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                  > course,
                  > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                  > handle the
                  > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                  > checking me
                  > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                  > country
                  > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                  > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                  > student, and
                  > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                  > finally
                  > abruptly ended the
                  > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                  > could
                  > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                  > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                  > better way
                  > than I think I did tonight?

                  I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                  and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                  population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                  handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                  first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                  students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                  course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                  human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                  they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                  course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                  about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                  believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                  says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                  evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                  science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                  issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                  convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                  retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                  may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                  Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                  question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                  think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                  during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                  hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                  student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                  a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                  bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                  student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                  God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                  a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                  idea.

                  Katrina

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark Lewine
                  I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in science education with the Race Project moving around the country for the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                    I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in 'science education' with the Race Project moving around the country for the next several years. For example, most of my students with 'creationist' issues mystifying their ability to think in my courses are African-American and Latino with trust in ignorant clergy. When the Race Project comes to Cleveland, I am planning to invite groups of these clergy to view and discuss the exhibit information on the human genome and its significance as an 'anti-racist' educational source. This should begin to change their perspective on science and evolution. This is only one example of techniques we can discuss at our meeting for dealing with the problem that most of us face in teaching human origins.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Katrina Worley
                    To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:35 AM
                    Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today


                    On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                    > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                    > been at
                    > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                    > thoughts
                    > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                    > For
                    > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                    > today
                    > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                    > fossils
                    > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                    > they're
                    > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                    > finding it
                    > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                    > course,
                    > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                    > handle the
                    > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                    > checking me
                    > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                    > country
                    > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                    > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                    > student, and
                    > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                    > finally
                    > abruptly ended the
                    > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                    > could
                    > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                    > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                    > better way
                    > than I think I did tonight?

                    I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                    and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                    population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                    handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                    first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                    students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                    course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                    human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                    they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                    course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                    about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                    believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                    says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                    evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                    science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                    issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                    convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                    retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                    may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                    Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                    question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                    think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                    during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                    hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                    student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                    a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                    bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                    student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                    God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                    a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                    idea.

                    Katrina

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • anthropmor@AOL.COM
                    In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, frankL@worldnet.att.net writes: As she put it, I m a Christian so I have to believe they re
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                      In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                      frankL@... writes:

                      As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                      fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                      increasingly difficult to maintain


                      I know this situation well- when the fossils are attacked, I ask them to
                      explain living forms.

                      My favorite tactic, however, is to ask them if they have seen an electron.
                      Then I explain that this class is just like physics- I don't care if they
                      believe in electrons in their hearts - here is the info we have amassed, and
                      that is what the class is about.
                      Also, being a christian in general, does not require them not to believe
                      in evolution.
                      Mike Pavlik


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • anthropmor@AOL.COM
                      In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, worleyk@gmail.com writes: They did so knowing that the course dealt with human evolution. I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                        In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                        worleyk@... writes:

                        They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                        human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                        they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                        course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                        about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                        believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                        says about evolution


                        Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                        Nicely written!
                        Mike Pavlik


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dorothy Davis DDBRUNER
                        Frank, I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way. When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I do first) I
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                          Frank,
                          I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way.
                          When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I
                          do first) I introduce the concept of three kinds of knowledge: Common
                          sense knowledge, religious knowledge- based on faith- and scientific
                          knowledge. I give examples and then proceed to explain the scientific
                          method. There are usually no problems with this. When we get to evolution
                          and someone begins to challenge it for religious reasons , I just point
                          out that they are using religious knowledge and not scientific knowledge,
                          and then I explain why. That seems to satisfy them (since they think that
                          religious trumps scientific knowledge anyways).


                          But then you may try the approach of one of my colleagues. She goes into
                          class the first day with a big Intro to Physical text, holds it up and
                          drops it on the floor several times.....a good start for explaining the
                          scientific method and testibility and verifiability.

                          Dorothy Davis
                          Anthropology Department
                          UNCG
                          Tel- 256-1099



                          "frank lagana" <frankL@...>
                          Sent by: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                          02/08/2007 11:15 PM
                          Please respond to
                          SACC-L@yahoogroups.com


                          To
                          <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                          cc

                          Subject
                          Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today







                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                          To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                          > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                          > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                          > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                          > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                          > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                          >
                          >
                          Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                          this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                          thoughts
                          on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                          example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                          but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                          fossils
                          are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                          fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                          increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                          course,
                          the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle
                          the
                          situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking
                          me
                          out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                          also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                          After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student,
                          and
                          trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                          abruptly ended the
                          discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                          possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                          Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better
                          way
                          than I think I did tonight?

                          Frank Lagana
                          Dept of Social Sciences
                          Queensborough Community College




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Philip Stein
                          We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we ve renamed the course Human Biological Evolution. So students know
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                            We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about, rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog; they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our field begins with an A!)

                            I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept. Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion, Magic, and Witchcraft course.

                            Phil


                            anthropmor@... wrote:

                            In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                            worleyk@... writes:

                            They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                            human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                            they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                            course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                            about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                            believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                            says about evolution


                            Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                            Nicely written!
                            Mike Pavlik


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                            Yahoo! Groups Links






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dianne Chidester
                            I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many of my students don t understand the differences between science and religion. I use
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                              I use the charts from this article, even in my sociology classes. Many
                              of my students don't understand the differences between science and
                              religion. I use the flow chart to demonstrate the scientific method and
                              use recent news to show how it works. (I've been using the example of
                              Celebrex and Vioxx as how the systems works. We keep doing experiments
                              and when we realize there are problems, we revise or throw out and start
                              over. This example works well because I can talk about how bias, in
                              this case money, can corrupt the scientific method if we're not ethical
                              scientists.)



                              Then I go on to the characteristics of science, pseudoscience, and
                              religion. Some students will try to argue with me trying to "prove
                              God." Then I ask them, "If you have faith, why do you need proof?
                              Isn't faith about not needing proof?"



                              Science vs. religion: teach the difference, resolve the conflict -
                              Special Issue: Science and Religion: Conflict or Conciliation?

                              Skeptical Inquirer <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843> ,
                              July-August, 1999
                              <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_4_23> by Zoran
                              Pazameta
                              <http://www.findarticles.com/p/search?tb=art&qt=%22Zoran+Pazameta%22>





                              I'm trying to find the entire article online, but haven't been able to.
                              I'll keep trying to find the charts he uses. If I can't find them, I'll
                              type them and send them out if folks are interested.



                              Cheers!

                              Dianne





                              ________________________________

                              From: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SACC-L@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Dorothy Davis DDBRUNER
                              Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 9:57 AM
                              To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today



                              Frank,
                              I teach in the Bible Belt and I handle the issue this way.
                              When I am teaching our 4 fields course (in the cultural section, which I

                              do first) I introduce the concept of three kinds of knowledge: Common
                              sense knowledge, religious knowledge- based on faith- and scientific
                              knowledge. I give examples and then proceed to explain the scientific
                              method. There are usually no problems with this. When we get to
                              evolution
                              and someone begins to challenge it for religious reasons , I just point
                              out that they are using religious knowledge and not scientific
                              knowledge,
                              and then I explain why. That seems to satisfy them (since they think
                              that
                              religious trumps scientific knowledge anyways).


                              But then you may try the approach of one of my colleagues. She goes into

                              class the first day with a big Intro to Physical text, holds it up and
                              drops it on the floor several times.....a good start for explaining the
                              scientific method and testibility and verifiability.

                              Dorothy Davis
                              Anthropology Department
                              UNCG
                              Tel- 256-1099

                              "frank lagana" <frankL@...
                              <mailto:frankL%40worldnet.att.net> >
                              Sent by: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>
                              02/08/2007 11:15 PM
                              Please respond to
                              SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com>

                              To
                              <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
                              cc

                              Subject
                              Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...
                              <mailto:deborah.shepherd%40anokaramsey.edu> >
                              To: <blynch@... <mailto:blynch%40qvcc.commnet.edu> >;
                              <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com <mailto:SACC-L%40yahoogroups.com> >
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                              > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                              > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                              > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                              > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                              > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                              >
                              >
                              Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                              this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                              thoughts
                              on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                              example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                              today
                              but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                              fossils
                              are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                              fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding
                              it
                              increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                              course,
                              the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle

                              the
                              situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking

                              me
                              out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                              also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                              After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student,
                              and
                              trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally

                              abruptly ended the
                              discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                              possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                              Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better

                              way
                              than I think I did tonight?

                              Frank Lagana
                              Dept of Social Sciences
                              Queensborough Community College

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lloyd Miller
                              Regarding Frank s student who said, I m a Christian so I have to believe they re fakes, it might be helpful to show students that the majority of mainstream
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                                believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                                majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                                and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                                Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                                provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                                primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                                Lloyd



                                On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                                > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
                                > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
                                > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
                                > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
                                > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
                                > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
                                > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
                                > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
                                > field begins with an A!)
                                >
                                > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
                                > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
                                > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
                                > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
                                > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
                                > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
                                > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
                                > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
                                > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
                                >
                                > Phil
                                >
                                > anthropmor@... wrote:
                                >
                                > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                                > worleyk@... writes:
                                >
                                > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                                > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                                > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                                > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                                > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                                > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                                > says about evolution
                                >
                                > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                                > Nicely written!
                                > Mike Pavlik
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
                                > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Dianne Chidester
                                One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the address works! http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168 In the interest of
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                  One of my favorite editorial cartoons by Nick Anderson. I hope the
                                  address works!





                                  http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/store/add.php?iid=11168



                                  "In the interest of teaching 'both sides,' I thought I'd give equal time
                                  to the theory of evolution..."



                                  Cheers!

                                  Dianne


                                  This electronic mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. This mail message has been scanned for virus and malware and is free of such to the best of this sending sites ability and knowledge.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • bdlqvcc
                                  To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a theology class; it is about science. Granted. But then, a student who says I m a Christian. I
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                    To paraphrase (I think it was) Frank, an anthro class is not a
                                    theology class; it is about science. Granted.

                                    But then, a student who says "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in
                                    the science of evolution. I have to believe in the Biblical
                                    account," is either not accepting the fundamental premise that
                                    you/we have set in such a class--"we do science here"--or hasn't
                                    really thought about it yet and all its implications (such as "why
                                    am I in this class then, if I don't accept its basic foundation?")

                                    Mike, then, makes another point: "being a christian in general, does
                                    not require them not to believe in evolution." The
                                    objective "social fact" is that there are people all over the place
                                    who consider themeselves "good Christians," who also understand and
                                    accept the science of evolution. You could, of course, point this
                                    out to such a student who otherwise makes the matter of fact
                                    statement "I'm a Christian. I can't believe in evolution..." At
                                    least initially this may do no more for such a student than to
                                    confirm that there are lots of "lost Christians" out there!

                                    But then, as a cultural anthropologist, I often think of it this
                                    way: My task in such a class is to invite people into what for many
                                    might be a foreign "culture" (scientific anthropology). They are
                                    going to be invited and asked to explore, observe, and learn to
                                    understand this foreign culture, not to necessarily give up their
                                    own culture, but to be able, at least, to return to that culture
                                    with a better understanding of this one (the discipline of
                                    anthropology). It is what anthropology itself is about, and I have
                                    often thought about how my classes should model the discipline's
                                    approach.

                                    When we get in to this discussion it always makes me think of
                                    an "over the cubicle walls" discussion between two mentors of mine
                                    in grad school; one was a fairly liberal, Irish, Catholic priest and
                                    the other was Hindu. Both taught "theology." One day after about
                                    10 minutes of Santosh talking about some aspect of comparative
                                    religion and social justice, Fr. Paul commented over the
                                    wall, "Well, Toshi, for someone who believes none of this is real,
                                    you have an awful lot to say about it!" They both let out a roar of
                                    laughter (as did those of us in surrounding cubicles) and their rich
                                    theological discussion continued. He still spoke from his religious
                                    perspective, but with all the critical and scholarly acumen he was
                                    so well known for, and she from her equally respected background as
                                    a Hindu scholar.

                                    At the intro level it is sometimes difficult to imagine students
                                    somehow reaching this eventual level of skill, ability,
                                    understanding, and mutual respect (and many may not). But for me it
                                    is at least an important model that I keep in mind when I try to
                                    imagine what I am attempting to share (and why) with students.

                                    Brian


                                    --- In SACC-L@yahoogroups.com, anthropmor@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:26:29 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                                    > frankL@... writes:
                                    >
                                    > As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                                    > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                                    finding it
                                    > increasingly difficult to maintain
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I know this situation well- when the fossils are attacked, I ask
                                    them to
                                    > explain living forms.
                                    >
                                    > My favorite tactic, however, is to ask them if they have seen
                                    an electron.
                                    > Then I explain that this class is just like physics- I don't
                                    care if they
                                    > believe in electrons in their hearts - here is the info we have
                                    amassed, and
                                    > that is what the class is about.
                                    > Also, being a christian in general, does not require them not
                                    to believe
                                    > in evolution.
                                    > Mike Pavlik
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Tbbyrnehom@aol.com
                                    Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application of technology and education for Anthropology. _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                      Hello SACCERS, I invite you to look at a nice web site for an application
                                      of technology and education for Anthropology.
                                      _http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/_ (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/) clik on Journey of Mankind,
                                      from Oppenheimer's book on DNA showing the migration patterns around the world
                                      with a nice timeline.
                                      We have come a long way from the old overhead projector. And regarding
                                      teaching evolution to Biblical fundamentalist....I asked students if they can
                                      know something without believing it to be "TRUE". They always said yes. I told
                                      them I was teaching evolution as information and not testing them on what
                                      ever they believed. Bill Byrne, Happily retired.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Deborah Shepherd
                                      My sympathies. I ve been there. Believers can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        My sympathies. I've been there. "Believers" can have their beliefs, but by being belligerent in her argument, she was being disrespectful of you and the class--which is a point you shouldn't forget. I'll let any student have their say just once and to the point, if that makes them feel better. I try to focus on:
                                        1. No one is required to take my class.
                                        2. I teach science, not religion.
                                        3. If her statement has to begin, "I believe," then it isn't science.
                                        4. The other students have registered for (and paid for) a class in anthropology, so it is time to talk about anthropology.
                                        5. All students in the class need to respect that your job (for which you are paid) is to teach them anthropology.

                                        I have found that if I am firm, the other students, if they say anything, express relief (privately) that I finished that particularly discussion quickly. But there are always the worst-case scenarios.

                                        Maybe your next lecture could start immediately with a review of scientific method: data, observations, and testable hypotheses. Or maybe you've done that already! Or you could have them all write an impromptu essay about why they are in the class and what they hope to learn. You may find the results encouraging, or amusing, if nothing else.

                                        I keep telling myself, if I make just one of the "I'm religious" students think twice about evolution vs. their biblical certainties, then I've had success.

                                        Deborah

                                        >>> frankL@... 2/8/2007 10:15 PM >>>


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Deborah Shepherd" <deborah.shepherd@...>
                                        To: <blynch@...>; <SACC-L@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:17 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                                        > Could it be that many evangelicals the world wide would be happier if
                                        > we just said that modern humans are "ascended" from apes rather than
                                        > descended? Sometimes I wonder how much of the objection is truly
                                        > theological and how much is pure basic insult to their self-esteem. I
                                        > also wonder if many of them have thought hard about the difference.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just been at
                                        this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some thoughts
                                        on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses. For
                                        example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one today
                                        but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that fossils
                                        are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe they're
                                        fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm finding it
                                        increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of course,
                                        the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd handle the
                                        situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still checking me
                                        out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the country
                                        also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                                        After several minutes of politely listening to this particular student, and
                                        trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I finally
                                        abruptly ended the
                                        discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I could
                                        possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                                        Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a better way
                                        than I think I did tonight?

                                        Frank Lagana
                                        Dept of Social Sciences
                                        Queensborough Community College





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Deborah Shepherd
                                        That s a great idea! Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D. Anthropology and Sociology Anoka-Ramsey Community College Coon Rapids Campus email:
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          That's a great idea!

                                          Deborah J. Shepherd, Ph.D.
                                          Anthropology and Sociology
                                          Anoka-Ramsey Community College
                                          Coon Rapids Campus
                                          email: deborah.shepherd@...
                                          http://webs.anokaramsey.edu/shepherd/
                                          new phone number: 763-433-1195

                                          >>> mlewine@... 2/9/2007 5:54 AM >>>

                                          I think that we have a unique opportunity to engage clergy as well as students in 'science education' with the Race Project moving around the country for the next several years. For example, most of my students with 'creationist' issues mystifying their ability to think in my courses are African-American and Latino with trust in ignorant clergy. When the Race Project comes to Cleveland, I am planning to invite groups of these clergy to view and discuss the exhibit information on the human genome and its significance as an 'anti-racist' educational source. This should begin to change their perspective on science and evolution. This is only one example of techniques we can discuss at our meeting for dealing with the problem that most of us face in teaching human origins.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Katrina Worley
                                          To: SACC-L@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:35 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [SACC-L] Interesting news item today

                                          On Feb 8, 2007, at 8:15 PM, frank lagana wrote:

                                          > Perhaps it's the grimness of a cold February, or maybe I've just
                                          > been at
                                          > this for too long, but I wonder if anyone would like to share some
                                          > thoughts
                                          > on how to deal with the topic of evolution in introductory courses.
                                          > For
                                          > example, how do we deal with a student (actually more than just one
                                          > today
                                          > but one woman in particular) who insisted (very belligerently) that
                                          > fossils
                                          > are fakes. As she put it, "I'm a Christian so I have to believe
                                          > they're
                                          > fakes". After 33 years of listening to nonsense like this, I'm
                                          > finding it
                                          > increasingly difficult to maintain the proper academic demeanor. Of
                                          > course,
                                          > the rest of the class was looking up at me waiting to see how I'd
                                          > handle the
                                          > situation (it's the first week of the semester so they're still
                                          > checking me
                                          > out). I'm sure that those of you who teach in other parts of the
                                          > country
                                          > also are faced with this type of thing on a regular basis.
                                          > After several minutes of politely listening to this particular
                                          > student, and
                                          > trying my best to remain reasonably calm in my answers to her, I
                                          > finally
                                          > abruptly ended the
                                          > discussion, with the suggestion that it was obvious that nothing I
                                          > could
                                          > possibly say would ever have any effect on her.
                                          > Anyone have any thoughts about ways to deal with all of this in a
                                          > better way
                                          > than I think I did tonight?

                                          I've had similar situations in my classes. I teach Intro to Physical
                                          and the associated lab class in central California. We have a large
                                          population of conservative Christians in our area. My way of
                                          handling situations like this is to head it off at the pass. On the
                                          first day of class while we're going over the syllabus I remind the
                                          students that they signed up for the class after having read the
                                          course description. They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                                          human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                                          they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                                          course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                                          about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                                          believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                                          says about evolution. This is not a course on "religious views of
                                          evolution". This is a science class. They have to understand the
                                          science in order to pass the course. What they believe is their
                                          issue. I think this approach alleviates their fear that I'm trying to
                                          convert them. I'm telling them up front that I don't care if they
                                          retain their beliefs, while letting them know in advance that they
                                          may not use those beliefs to disrupt my classroom.

                                          Several years ago I had one student who began every response to every
                                          question with the phrase "according to scientists...", or "scientists
                                          think..." At the end of the semester, however, we were talking
                                          during the open lab session before the final. I had out the range of
                                          hominids, and a chimp and a modern human skull as comparisons (a
                                          student asked about whether A. afarensis was all that different from
                                          a chimp). Someone lined the hominids up chronologically and then
                                          bracketed them with the chimp and modern human. My creationist
                                          student looked at the sequence and said... "the Bible tells us that
                                          God used a rib from Adam to make Eve. Maybe God used an animal like
                                          a chimp to make us." Not perfect, but at least she was open to the
                                          idea.

                                          Katrina

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Deborah Shepherd
                                          Lloyd, For those of us who don t have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 9, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Lloyd,
                                            For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web site.

                                            Deborah

                                            >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>

                                            Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                                            believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                                            majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                                            and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                                            Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                                            provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                                            primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                                            Lloyd

                                            On Feb 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Philip Stein wrote:

                                            > We have relatively few problems in this area. I think it is in
                                            > large part because we've renamed the course "Human Biological
                                            > Evolution." So students know exactly what the course is about,
                                            > rather than signing up for Physical Anthropolgy (What the hell is
                                            > that!) and then discovering on the first day that it's a course in
                                            > human evolution. (We know that students do not read the catalog;
                                            > they select courses based on course title or from a laundry list of
                                            > courses that satisfy a particular gen ed requirement. Luckily, our
                                            > field begins with an A!)
                                            >
                                            > I do teach Intelligent Design, both the controvery and the concept.
                                            > Of course, like all ideas, I critique the concept and, I must
                                            > confess, ID doesn't come out looking all that well. I emphasize
                                            > that the problem is that ID is simply not science. But I respect
                                            > their belief systems, at least publically. I just make it clear
                                            > that since our course fulfills a natural science gen ed
                                            > requirement, we must deal with science. The nature of the
                                            > supernatural is appropriate for our Anthropology of Religion,
                                            > Magic, and Witchcraft course.
                                            >
                                            > Phil
                                            >
                                            > anthropmor@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 2/8/2007 11:42:13 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                                            > worleyk@... writes:
                                            >
                                            > They did so knowing that the course dealt with
                                            > human evolution. I then inform the student that I don't care what
                                            > they believe (and I don't- it's not my concern). In order to pass my
                                            > course, however, they do have to understand what *science* has to say
                                            > about evolution. In the same way that I don't care what they
                                            > believe, I don't want to know what their minister, pastor or priest
                                            > says about evolution
                                            >
                                            > Wow- great way to beat me to the punch!
                                            > Nicely written!
                                            > Mike Pavlik
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > Be sure to check out the SACC web page at www.anthro.cc (NOTE THE
                                            > NEW ADDRESS!!) for meeting materials, newsletters, etc.
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

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                                          • Lloyd Miller
                                            Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I ll send it to you separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn t maintained their SACC Notes issues
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 11, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Yes, Deborah, I have it on a Word document. I'll send it to you
                                              separately and to anyone else who writes for it (and hasn't
                                              maintained their SACC Notes issues in gold-embossed, leather-bound
                                              volumes.).
                                              Lloyd



                                              On Feb 9, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Deborah Shepherd wrote:

                                              > Lloyd,
                                              > For those of us who don't have SACC notes going back that far, do
                                              > you have a Word or other digital copy that you can send us
                                              > privately by request (or however you want to do it)? Or if Len
                                              > doesn't mind, this might be a great article to publish on our web
                                              > site.
                                              >
                                              > Deborah
                                              >
                                              > >>> lloyd.miller@... 2/9/2007 9:33 AM >>>
                                              >
                                              > Regarding Frank's student who said, "I'm a Christian so I have to
                                              > believe they're fakes," it might be helpful to show students that the
                                              > majority of mainstream Christian denominations do not reject science
                                              > and evolution. In his article on Intelligent Design (SACC Notes,
                                              > Vol. 11, No. 2, spring 2005), Len Lieberman gives examples and
                                              > provides some sources for this. I also mention it briefly in my
                                              > primer on evolution and ID (SACC Notes, Vol. 12, No. 2, spring 2006).
                                              > Lloyd



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