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Re: Roof/Tower/Pole mounting of S9V31 - Suggestions for ground plane

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  • wi6le9
    Thanks Michael, One more question about the groundplane configuration and I think I ll be cleared up. So, my intention is to focus on 20M but, I plan on 10M
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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      Thanks Michael,
      One more question about the groundplane configuration and I think I'll be
      cleared up. So, my intention is to focus on 20M but, I plan on 10M as well as
      browsing the full 80-6. So, the 1/2 wave groundplane should be tuned for the
      lowest frequency (longest radial) and that will cover the shorter bands equally well?
      Or, do I then need (optimally) (4) more ground plane radials tuned for 10M 1/2 wave - thus having (4) for 20M and (4) for 10M??

      Thanks again,
      Alex.

      --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
      >
      > Putting the antenna in the air with tuned radials is known as a
      > groundplane configuration. People usually say four radials and that
      > probably is about the optimum balance between performance and
      > practicality. You could go more than four and you can go less. I'm using
      > three radials myself and people have gotten by with two or even a single
      > solitary one. I use a high pound test rating monofilament fishing line
      > to hold up the ends of my radials, it's less obtrusive than rope. My
      > radials themselves are made of 14 gauge insulated copper wire made for
      > household wiring and they are not really that noticeable up in the air.
      > The insulation color is green, black would probably be even less
      > noticeable, I'd stay away from red!
      > Don't connect an antenna configured in this fashion to earth ground
      > anywhere at the antenna end. I do have all my coax cables shield
      > connected to a common earth ground at the shack end of things. I can't
      > imagine not doing that.
      > Hope this helps and if I can help with any other questions, let me know.
      > 73,
      > Michael, W4HIJ
      > On 2/16/2012 3:33 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
      > >
      > > Howdy Folks,
      > > sorry if I'm asking something that has already been asked - I've
      > > looked through the archive and folks talk about putting at least (4)
      > > 1/2 wave ground radials on their above ground mounted S9V31... what's
      > > the easiest way to do that in mid air?
      > >
      > > I've currently got a twenty-five foot high mast that I'd like to
      > > use... the top of the mast is about level with the top of my roof
      > > (about 30' north of the pole.) I'm targeting 20M use so, I would need
      > > (4) 32.3' radials. Now the fun part, how do I put up these radials?
      > >
      > > I've seen configurations where folks would run a wire from the base of
      > > the antenna strung through mid air to an insulator then rope from the
      > > insulator to a convenient tie off. Is that pretty much my only choice?
      > > If I were mainly interested in 10M I was thinking of attaching
      > > stainless steel whips as my ground radials - I like that as it
      > > wouldn't require anything to be strung up... let me rephrase that - My
      > > wife will allow me to do this if I don't have to string things around
      > > the yard/house. I've got one corner of the house to work with... as
      > > long as it's off the ground and doesn't come out of that corner ;)
      > >
      > > Another question for those that made it this far... LDG's information
      > > say's NOT to connect the coax shielding OR the ground radials to an
      > > earth ground - Is this sound advice? Currently I've got the shielding
      > > of my coax tied to earth ground in the shack and at the antenna feed
      > > point... I thought that was the correct way to ground your setup??
      > >
      > > Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
      > > Thanks,
      > > Alex.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Michael Tondee
      From my reading and what I ve been taught over the years, its always been my impression than when you elevate a vertical and string out tuned radials in a GP
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        From my reading and what I've been taught over the years, its always
        been my impression than when you elevate a vertical and string out tuned
        radials in a GP configuration that you are going to need radials
        specifically cut for each band of operation. Some folks use the old
        flat three or five wire rotor cable for radials and cut the individual
        wires to length for the different bands. However, folks on this list
        have told me that if you use an UNUN that things will be as you say and
        that if you have only 40 meter radials that the antenna will load up on
        bands higher than 40 meters as well. I have no UNUN, I only use a choke
        balun made by winding some of my coax around a piece of four inch PVC
        and since I have a small Cushcraft MA-5 beam that does a great job on
        20-10 meters, I've had no inclination to even try and load the S-9 up on
        those bands. Hopefully someone else can chime in and answer that
        question for you a bit better.
        73,
        Michael, W4HIJ
        On 2/16/2012 11:06 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Michael,
        > One more question about the groundplane configuration and I think I'll be
        > cleared up. So, my intention is to focus on 20M but, I plan on 10M as
        > well as
        > browsing the full 80-6. So, the 1/2 wave groundplane should be tuned
        > for the
        > lowest frequency (longest radial) and that will cover the shorter
        > bands equally well?
        > Or, do I then need (optimally) (4) more ground plane radials tuned for
        > 10M 1/2 wave - thus having (4) for 20M and (4) for 10M??
        >
        > Thanks again,
        > Alex.
        >
        > --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:S9Antennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Putting the antenna in the air with tuned radials is known as a
        > > groundplane configuration. People usually say four radials and that
        > > probably is about the optimum balance between performance and
        > > practicality. You could go more than four and you can go less. I'm
        > using
        > > three radials myself and people have gotten by with two or even a
        > single
        > > solitary one. I use a high pound test rating monofilament fishing line
        > > to hold up the ends of my radials, it's less obtrusive than rope. My
        > > radials themselves are made of 14 gauge insulated copper wire made for
        > > household wiring and they are not really that noticeable up in the air.
        > > The insulation color is green, black would probably be even less
        > > noticeable, I'd stay away from red!
        > > Don't connect an antenna configured in this fashion to earth ground
        > > anywhere at the antenna end. I do have all my coax cables shield
        > > connected to a common earth ground at the shack end of things. I can't
        > > imagine not doing that.
        > > Hope this helps and if I can help with any other questions, let me know.
        > > 73,
        > > Michael, W4HIJ
        > > On 2/16/2012 3:33 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Howdy Folks,
        > > > sorry if I'm asking something that has already been asked - I've
        > > > looked through the archive and folks talk about putting at least (4)
        > > > 1/2 wave ground radials on their above ground mounted S9V31... what's
        > > > the easiest way to do that in mid air?
        > > >
        > > > I've currently got a twenty-five foot high mast that I'd like to
        > > > use... the top of the mast is about level with the top of my roof
        > > > (about 30' north of the pole.) I'm targeting 20M use so, I would need
        > > > (4) 32.3' radials. Now the fun part, how do I put up these radials?
        > > >
        > > > I've seen configurations where folks would run a wire from the
        > base of
        > > > the antenna strung through mid air to an insulator then rope from the
        > > > insulator to a convenient tie off. Is that pretty much my only
        > choice?
        > > > If I were mainly interested in 10M I was thinking of attaching
        > > > stainless steel whips as my ground radials - I like that as it
        > > > wouldn't require anything to be strung up... let me rephrase that
        > - My
        > > > wife will allow me to do this if I don't have to string things around
        > > > the yard/house. I've got one corner of the house to work with... as
        > > > long as it's off the ground and doesn't come out of that corner ;)
        > > >
        > > > Another question for those that made it this far... LDG's information
        > > > say's NOT to connect the coax shielding OR the ground radials to an
        > > > earth ground - Is this sound advice? Currently I've got the shielding
        > > > of my coax tied to earth ground in the shack and at the antenna feed
        > > > point... I thought that was the correct way to ground your setup??
        > > >
        > > > Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
        > > > Thanks,
        > > > Alex.
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wi6le9
        Awesome, thanks for all the advice! I think I ll give it a try with and with out the shorter radials and see if it helps... if it doesn t I ll stick with the
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Awesome, thanks for all the advice!
          I think I"ll give it a try with and with out the shorter radials and see if it
          helps... if it doesn't I'll stick with the minimal setup (keep the wife happy.)
          As I composed my last post with, "one last question..." you know I doomed it ;)

          As for the GP Radials and the angle of drop... in a perfect world that would
          be 27 degree drop (below horizontal or 117 degrees from antenna?)
          Or is the flat 90 degree horizontal ideal?

          Thanks again, I'm so glad I found this forum!
          73,
          Alex.
          --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
          >
          > From my reading and what I've been taught over the years, its always
          > been my impression than when you elevate a vertical and string out tuned
          > radials in a GP configuration that you are going to need radials
          > specifically cut for each band of operation. Some folks use the old
          > flat three or five wire rotor cable for radials and cut the individual
          > wires to length for the different bands. However, folks on this list
          > have told me that if you use an UNUN that things will be as you say and
          > that if you have only 40 meter radials that the antenna will load up on
          > bands higher than 40 meters as well. I have no UNUN, I only use a choke
          > balun made by winding some of my coax around a piece of four inch PVC
          > and since I have a small Cushcraft MA-5 beam that does a great job on
          > 20-10 meters, I've had no inclination to even try and load the S-9 up on
          > those bands. Hopefully someone else can chime in and answer that
          > question for you a bit better.
          > 73,
          > Michael, W4HIJ
          > On 2/16/2012 11:06 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks Michael,
          > > One more question about the groundplane configuration and I think I'll be
          > > cleared up. So, my intention is to focus on 20M but, I plan on 10M as
          > > well as
          > > browsing the full 80-6. So, the 1/2 wave groundplane should be tuned
          > > for the
          > > lowest frequency (longest radial) and that will cover the shorter
          > > bands equally well?
          > > Or, do I then need (optimally) (4) more ground plane radials tuned for
          > > 10M 1/2 wave - thus having (4) for 20M and (4) for 10M??
          > >
          > > Thanks again,
          > > Alex.
          > >
          > > --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:S9Antennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael Tondee <mat_62@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Putting the antenna in the air with tuned radials is known as a
          > > > groundplane configuration. People usually say four radials and that
          > > > probably is about the optimum balance between performance and
          > > > practicality. You could go more than four and you can go less. I'm
          > > using
          > > > three radials myself and people have gotten by with two or even a
          > > single
          > > > solitary one. I use a high pound test rating monofilament fishing line
          > > > to hold up the ends of my radials, it's less obtrusive than rope. My
          > > > radials themselves are made of 14 gauge insulated copper wire made for
          > > > household wiring and they are not really that noticeable up in the air.
          > > > The insulation color is green, black would probably be even less
          > > > noticeable, I'd stay away from red!
          > > > Don't connect an antenna configured in this fashion to earth ground
          > > > anywhere at the antenna end. I do have all my coax cables shield
          > > > connected to a common earth ground at the shack end of things. I can't
          > > > imagine not doing that.
          > > > Hope this helps and if I can help with any other questions, let me know.
          > > > 73,
          > > > Michael, W4HIJ
          > > > On 2/16/2012 3:33 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Howdy Folks,
          > > > > sorry if I'm asking something that has already been asked - I've
          > > > > looked through the archive and folks talk about putting at least (4)
          > > > > 1/2 wave ground radials on their above ground mounted S9V31... what's
          > > > > the easiest way to do that in mid air?
          > > > >
          > > > > I've currently got a twenty-five foot high mast that I'd like to
          > > > > use... the top of the mast is about level with the top of my roof
          > > > > (about 30' north of the pole.) I'm targeting 20M use so, I would need
          > > > > (4) 32.3' radials. Now the fun part, how do I put up these radials?
          > > > >
          > > > > I've seen configurations where folks would run a wire from the
          > > base of
          > > > > the antenna strung through mid air to an insulator then rope from the
          > > > > insulator to a convenient tie off. Is that pretty much my only
          > > choice?
          > > > > If I were mainly interested in 10M I was thinking of attaching
          > > > > stainless steel whips as my ground radials - I like that as it
          > > > > wouldn't require anything to be strung up... let me rephrase that
          > > - My
          > > > > wife will allow me to do this if I don't have to string things around
          > > > > the yard/house. I've got one corner of the house to work with... as
          > > > > long as it's off the ground and doesn't come out of that corner ;)
          > > > >
          > > > > Another question for those that made it this far... LDG's information
          > > > > say's NOT to connect the coax shielding OR the ground radials to an
          > > > > earth ground - Is this sound advice? Currently I've got the shielding
          > > > > of my coax tied to earth ground in the shack and at the antenna feed
          > > > > point... I thought that was the correct way to ground your setup??
          > > > >
          > > > > Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
          > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > Alex.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Michael Tondee
          Most of us try to angle the radials down some from the antenna although I don t know what the ideal is off the top of my head. I think it affects the feed
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 18, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Most of us try to angle the radials down some from the antenna although
            I don't know what the "ideal" is off the top of my head. I think it
            affects the feed point impedance but it's not that critical. All three
            of mine are angled down but to varying degrees with one at a much
            steeper angle than the other two. It's based on the layout of my lot
            and where I could find a handy tie off place for my fishing line.
            73,
            Michael, W4HIJ
            On 2/18/2012 12:16 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
            >
            > Awesome, thanks for all the advice!
            > I think I"ll give it a try with and with out the shorter radials and
            > see if it
            > helps... if it doesn't I'll stick with the minimal setup (keep the
            > wife happy.)
            > As I composed my last post with, "one last question..." you know I
            > doomed it ;)
            >
            > As for the GP Radials and the angle of drop... in a perfect world that
            > would
            > be 27 degree drop (below horizontal or 117 degrees from antenna?)
            > Or is the flat 90 degree horizontal ideal?
            >
            > Thanks again, I'm so glad I found this forum!
            > 73,
            > Alex.
            > --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:S9Antennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael Tondee <mat_62@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > From my reading and what I've been taught over the years, its always
            > > been my impression than when you elevate a vertical and string out
            > tuned
            > > radials in a GP configuration that you are going to need radials
            > > specifically cut for each band of operation. Some folks use the old
            > > flat three or five wire rotor cable for radials and cut the individual
            > > wires to length for the different bands. However, folks on this list
            > > have told me that if you use an UNUN that things will be as you say and
            > > that if you have only 40 meter radials that the antenna will load up on
            > > bands higher than 40 meters as well. I have no UNUN, I only use a choke
            > > balun made by winding some of my coax around a piece of four inch PVC
            > > and since I have a small Cushcraft MA-5 beam that does a great job on
            > > 20-10 meters, I've had no inclination to even try and load the S-9
            > up on
            > > those bands. Hopefully someone else can chime in and answer that
            > > question for you a bit better.
            > > 73,
            > > Michael, W4HIJ
            > > On 2/16/2012 11:06 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thanks Michael,
            > > > One more question about the groundplane configuration and I think
            > I'll be
            > > > cleared up. So, my intention is to focus on 20M but, I plan on 10M as
            > > > well as
            > > > browsing the full 80-6. So, the 1/2 wave groundplane should be tuned
            > > > for the
            > > > lowest frequency (longest radial) and that will cover the shorter
            > > > bands equally well?
            > > > Or, do I then need (optimally) (4) more ground plane radials tuned
            > for
            > > > 10M 1/2 wave - thus having (4) for 20M and (4) for 10M??
            > > >
            > > > Thanks again,
            > > > Alex.
            > > >
            > > > --- In S9Antennas@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:S9Antennas%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > <mailto:S9Antennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael Tondee <mat_62@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Putting the antenna in the air with tuned radials is known as a
            > > > > groundplane configuration. People usually say four radials and that
            > > > > probably is about the optimum balance between performance and
            > > > > practicality. You could go more than four and you can go less. I'm
            > > > using
            > > > > three radials myself and people have gotten by with two or even a
            > > > single
            > > > > solitary one. I use a high pound test rating monofilament
            > fishing line
            > > > > to hold up the ends of my radials, it's less obtrusive than rope. My
            > > > > radials themselves are made of 14 gauge insulated copper wire
            > made for
            > > > > household wiring and they are not really that noticeable up in
            > the air.
            > > > > The insulation color is green, black would probably be even less
            > > > > noticeable, I'd stay away from red!
            > > > > Don't connect an antenna configured in this fashion to earth ground
            > > > > anywhere at the antenna end. I do have all my coax cables shield
            > > > > connected to a common earth ground at the shack end of things. I
            > can't
            > > > > imagine not doing that.
            > > > > Hope this helps and if I can help with any other questions, let
            > me know.
            > > > > 73,
            > > > > Michael, W4HIJ
            > > > > On 2/16/2012 3:33 PM, wi6le9 wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Howdy Folks,
            > > > > > sorry if I'm asking something that has already been asked - I've
            > > > > > looked through the archive and folks talk about putting at
            > least (4)
            > > > > > 1/2 wave ground radials on their above ground mounted S9V31...
            > what's
            > > > > > the easiest way to do that in mid air?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I've currently got a twenty-five foot high mast that I'd like to
            > > > > > use... the top of the mast is about level with the top of my roof
            > > > > > (about 30' north of the pole.) I'm targeting 20M use so, I
            > would need
            > > > > > (4) 32.3' radials. Now the fun part, how do I put up these
            > radials?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I've seen configurations where folks would run a wire from the
            > > > base of
            > > > > > the antenna strung through mid air to an insulator then rope
            > from the
            > > > > > insulator to a convenient tie off. Is that pretty much my only
            > > > choice?
            > > > > > If I were mainly interested in 10M I was thinking of attaching
            > > > > > stainless steel whips as my ground radials - I like that as it
            > > > > > wouldn't require anything to be strung up... let me rephrase that
            > > > - My
            > > > > > wife will allow me to do this if I don't have to string things
            > around
            > > > > > the yard/house. I've got one corner of the house to work
            > with... as
            > > > > > long as it's off the ground and doesn't come out of that corner ;)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Another question for those that made it this far... LDG's
            > information
            > > > > > say's NOT to connect the coax shielding OR the ground radials
            > to an
            > > > > > earth ground - Is this sound advice? Currently I've got the
            > shielding
            > > > > > of my coax tied to earth ground in the shack and at the
            > antenna feed
            > > > > > point... I thought that was the correct way to ground your setup??
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
            > > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > > Alex.
            >



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