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Eric Space, Prize Pomp, and Leadership

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  • Else Hunrvogt
    Falcone wrote: As long as the main List field is the only place that fencing may occur, fencing time will be a limited and rationed commodity.
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 2, 2005
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      Falcone wrote:

      <snip>
      As long as the main List field is the only place that fencing may
      occur, fencing time will be a limited and rationed commodity.
      <snip>
      So, my belief is that the Guild should pursue a policy that, just as
      all other Guilds may have a space to practice their arts, we should
      also have it as given that the Guild may set up a "practice field"
      where we may teach, hold prizes, and practice.
      <snip>

      Else replies:

      David, I think the Guild should host off Eric/adjacent to Eric
      activities. Meetings, classes, hosting the A and S pavilion like
      other Guild do… I think the line of division between needs to be on
      eric and off eric is ok is the same division between minor combat and
      not, "drills requiring armor".

      Rapier has fought too hard to get a place on the eric to give it up
      when there are other options. Not all Kingdoms give that opportunity
      to their rapier fighters. The eric is so central to West Kingdom
      society. Rapier gets a lot of exposure on the eric. Going elsewhere
      to fight prizes and the like will make things less prominent, not
      more so.

      Speaking for myself again, I have no problem giving up fighting time
      to prizes, but it behooves the guild to be polite about eric usage.
      Limit Prime time prizes to Black Scarves, maybe provosts. Announce
      on westfence that the eric will not be available to non-
      guildfighters, it saves us from hauling armor, and possibly from
      attending the event.

      I think there should be an escalation in pomp as guildmembers advance
      through the levels. Keep it simple and short at the free scholar,
      journeyman level. As I read the Oerthan guidelines, every fencer of
      reasonable activity and competency ought to be able to achieve
      journeyman status, correct me if I am wrong. That's a lot of prizes
      if the guild gets active participation as rapier continues to grow.
      Make sure there is a gradually increase in skill level, endurance,
      and spiff for each level's test. To follow Simon's suggestion, maybe
      run the free scholars through journeyman or provost's at a guild
      event. Reserve the Guildmaster's for Crowns/Coronations.

      Staffan wrote:
      About leadership. This is a subject that is kind of a sore one for
      me. We have been discussing, quite often, in what ever means of
      communication we have had available, that we do not have anyone that
      we can say is our leader. Sorcha, as an Ancient Guildmaster, do you
      have any suggestions on who could be one?

      Else replied:
      I think the Guild would be very lucky to get Sorcha as Lord
      Guildmaster. From what I have heard, she has largely been filling
      that role at in Oertha. She has a really good perspective on what
      the guild should be, as evidenced by the guide lines from Oertha.

      From my perspective on the outside, leadership seems to be an area
      where the guild is lacking. It's not that the charter in inherently
      evil, it more that the ship needs a rudder. Michael and Coronado
      have been responsive to specific requests such as the guildmembers
      want to submit this device, a guildmember wants to fight this prize.
      However, no one is energetically guiding the guild in Central
      Kingdom. The guild needs a head, so that the head can guide the
      actions of the energetic middle.

      I don't know if the lack of a Lord Guildmaster is a function of the
      black scarves being burnt out, a function of it not being
      specifically requested, or a function of the lack of a consensus
      (Does no one want the job? Does no one think the job needs doing? Or
      does everyone want the job?). As stated in the past, Michael and
      Coronado have been very responsive to specific petition. Maybe if
      the guildmembers petition the Circle of Black Scarces to name a Lord
      Guildmaster, with a time limit (by Beltane?), something will
      happen.

      Else - your friendly neighborhood desenting voice. Seriously, tell
      me when I need to butt out of your affairs!
    • Brigit
      Elsa and all ... opportunity ... elsewhere ... I ve been talking to some heavies recently about the whole list field issue--several of them have stated to me
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 2, 2005
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        Elsa and all

        --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Else Hunrvogt"
        <nancyreimers@j...> wrote:
        > Rapier has fought too hard to get a place on the eric to give it up
        > when there are other options. Not all Kingdoms give that
        opportunity
        > to their rapier fighters. The eric is so central to West Kingdom
        > society. Rapier gets a lot of exposure on the eric. Going
        elsewhere
        > to fight prizes and the like will make things less prominent, not
        > more so.

        I've been talking to some heavies recently about the whole list field
        issue--several of them have stated to me that they think that we
        deserve space on the list field and that it's just going to be a
        matter of pressing polietly for it and "training" autocrats, etc. on
        the idea. They have suggested that space CAN be made for a fifth
        field (Crowns usually have four) that can run concurrently with heavy
        tournaments.

        In most instances, if a "T" shaped eric were set up (The rapier list
        field wouldn't have to be very large) like we had here in the Mists
        at Fall Coronet, fencers would be just as visible at heavies since
        they are IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the heavy list field--and it would
        actually create more space for those who insist on being on the
        eric. The suggestion was made that Herald's Point and the
        Chiurgeon's pavillion could be in the corners where the rapier eric
        meets the heavy eric and could therefore be readily available to meet
        the needs of both.

        We had a walkway between the fencing eric and heavy eric at Mists
        Fall Coronet and that worked great. It also allows fencers to fight
        throughout the day at Crowns and Coronets in full view of the
        populace. THis would also give us room to fight prizes and run
        classes in full view of the populace as well. If a "T" configuration
        is not to everyone's liking, or space does not allow such a wide list
        area, why not give us room at one end of the eric like they had for
        fencing at Estrella? The entire width of the list field was given
        over to fencing. We don't presently require a huge area and if we
        had one entire end, this would suffice.

        We will be using this "T" configuration again at Spring Mists Coronet
        if any of you care to see how it works. This, btw Thomas, is at the
        request of our Prince.

        I believe that either one of these ideas are a compromise that
        everyone can live with, it's just a matter of seeing that it CAN work
        and getting everyone responsible for how the list field is set up
        behind the idea. I don't think we need to stand around picking our
        noses at Crowns and Coronets.


        I agree that our current level of prizes is not "user friendly" and I
        like the Oreathan suggestions. Prizes were historically not a "test"
        but an acknowledgement of ability. Right now we run them as a test,
        which I think is discouraging to advancement. Our provosts and GMs
        need to be looking for people to advance and actively pushing them to
        advance--based on what they are already doing and skill level they
        already show. Let's stop making people FEAR their prize fight as if
        it were a final in college.

        > Make sure there is a gradually increase in skill level, endurance,
        > and spiff for each level's test. To follow Simon's suggestion,
        maybe
        > run the free scholars through journeyman or provost's at a guild
        > event. Reserve the Guildmaster's for Crowns/Coronations.

        Ah, but we don't HAVE seperate Guild events--and will we ever?
        Perhaps lesser prizes could be fought at smaller events such as White
        Sheild or A&S--but I don't think it is realistic at this time to even
        think we will be having seperate Guild events.


        >

        > Else replied:
        > I think the Guild would be very lucky to get Sorcha as Lord
        > Guildmaster. From what I have heard, she has largely been filling
        > that role at in Oertha. She has a really good perspective on what
        > the guild should be, as evidenced by the guide lines from Oertha.

        I think that we should consider a Deputy Lord Guild Minister position
        for Sorcha, with all due respect--as she would be largely unavailable
        to the majority of the fencing population given her state of
        residence. We need leadership HERE very badly in the central West.
        Having our LGM in Alaska would be very much like not having one at
        all.

        > From my perspective on the outside, leadership seems to be an area
        > where the guild is lacking. The guild needs a head, so that the
        head can guide the
        > actions of the energetic middle.

        Damn straight we do and I think it is time that the rest of us rise
        up and DEMAND that a Lord Guild Master be appointed. We are in
        violation of our Charter without one. If we can't get our GMs to
        agree on someone to lead from the GM level, then by god, we need to
        change that part of the charter and allow members at lower ranks to
        be appointed. Profiecancy in fencing does not mean ability to lead.
        We need a Guild Minister who will LEAD--I could care less if they are
        a Master fencer--I want a Master LEADER! Let's change the title to
        Guild Minister of Defense and drop the Lord Guild Master.
        >
        > I don't know if the lack of a Lord Guildmaster is a function of the
        > black scarves being burnt out, a function of it not being
        > specifically requested, or a function of the lack of a consensus
        > (Does no one want the job? Does no one think the job needs doing?

        It is, quite frankly, a function of personalities. I am not afraid
        to say it. If neither GM wants the other to lead, why should they
        promote the idea of appointing a LGM? This is another reason to
        amend the charter to allow those of lower rank to fill the position.
        Until this is done--we are looking at a stalemate, folks. We can
        talk all we want--Doug will not agree to have Mike lead and visa
        versa--and frankly--neither has shown the initiative we need to pull
        the GUild out of the doldrums it is in. As Elsa stated--we need a
        Guild Minister who doesn't just respond to requests but who actively
        LEADS!!!


        > does everyone want the job?). As stated in the past, Michael and
        > Coronado have been very responsive to specific petition. Maybe if
        > the guildmembers petition the Circle of Black Scarces to name a
        Lord
        > Guildmaster, with a time limit (by Beltane?), something will
        > happen.

        We've repeatedly asked for this. Nada. It's been two years since
        Brookes left the position. Going on three. So much for
        responsiveness.


        Brigit--your not so friendly anymore after waiting for two
        years "Revolution NOW!" voice
      • Staffan Arffuidson
        ... wrote: Elsa and all *****I ve been talking to some heavies recently about the whole list field issue--several of them have stated to
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 2, 2005
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          --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Brigit"
          <brigitgoddess1@y...> wrote:

          Elsa and all

          *****I've been talking to some heavies recently about the whole list
          field issue--several of them have stated to me that they think that we
          deserve space on the list field and that it's just going to be a
          matter of pressing polietly for it and "training" autocrats, etc. on
          the idea. They have suggested that space CAN be made for a fifth
          field (Crowns usually have four) that can run concurrently with heavy
          tournaments.*****

          I agree that we (anyone who fences) need to maintain our foothold on
          the eric. We have been honored with it. I am at a loss on how we can
          do rapier combat as much as we used to, but we can try different
          things as we go. We'll get it right, soon.


          *****I agree that our current level of prizes is not "user friendly"
          and I like the Oreathan suggestions. Prizes were historically not a
          "test" but an acknowledgement of ability. Right now we run them as a
          test, which I think is discouraging to advancement. Our provosts and
          GMs need to be looking for people to advance and actively pushing them
          to advance--based on what they are already doing and skill level they
          already show. Let's stop making people FEAR their prize fight as if
          it were a final in college.*****

          I did not realize anyone saw their Prize as if they were taking a
          final. If we follow the Oerthan Guidelines, then we can hold the
          lower prizes at a practice. We would just need to advertise them well
          enough in advance so everyone who would like to attend can. What
          suggestions do people have on how to run a Prize better? How do our
          Oerthan Siblings run one?

          Also, Prize lenghts are currently being determined by the GuildMasters
          and Courtiers who run them. It is something we can suggest, however,
          I'd prefer to let them run Prizes how the GMoF/CttCotW as a whole have
          discussed.

          *****Ah, but we don't HAVE seperate Guild events--and will we ever?
          Perhaps lesser prizes could be fought at smaller events such as White
          Sheild or A&S--but I don't think it is realistic at this time to even
          think we will be having seperate Guild events.*****

          I agree, we should not have a seperate Guild event. That would just
          push fencing further away from the West Kingdom participation that we
          are maintaining. As for smaller events, I'd stay away from doing
          those as "Guild Only" events. I want as many fencers to show up and
          enjoy themselves. As for Else's comment about not bringing armor to
          an event that would have Guild activities, well I would not like being
          in the Guild if we can not have something for everyone.


          *****I think that we should consider a Deputy Lord Guild Minister
          position for Sorcha, with all due respect--as she would be largely
          unavailable to the majority of the fencing population given her state
          of residence. We need leadership HERE very badly in the central West.
          Having our LGM in Alaska would be very much like not having one at
          all.*****

          I disagree with you Brigit. The Lord GuildMaster should not need to
          be here. They would need to be capable of maintaining the Guild
          organization by making decisions that will help us flourish. They
          need to be informed on what people are doing within the Guild and how
          to better promote it. Now, the Guildmasters that you choose to learn
          from should be (relatively) close, so you can work with them, when
          necessary.


          *****Damn straight we do and I think it is time that the rest of us
          rise up and DEMAND that a Lord Guild Master be appointed. We are in
          violation of our Charter without one. If we can't get our GMs to
          agree on someone to lead from the GM level, then by god, we need to
          change that part of the charter and allow members at lower ranks to be
          appointed. Profiecancy in fencing does not mean ability to lead. We
          need a Guild Minister who will LEAD--I could care less if they are a
          Master fencer--I want a Master LEADER! Let's change the title to
          Guild Minister of Defense and drop the Lord Guild Master.*****

          We do need a leader. Yes, we are in violation of the charter because
          we do not have one. I have a suggestion, instead of removing the
          Grant of Arms award (Guild Master), I would like to suggest that we
          incorporate a Provost post. A position that covers the smaller
          details, like rosters and the overall promotion of the Guild. There
          is such a position in the Academie d'Espee and Lochac Royal Guild of
          Defence.


          *****It is, quite frankly, a function of personalities. I am not
          afraid to say it. If neither GM wants the other to lead, why should
          they promote the idea of appointing a LGM? This is another reason to
          amend the charter to allow those of lower rank to fill the position.
          Until this is done--we are looking at a stalemate, folks. We can
          talk all we want--Doug will not agree to have Mike lead and visa
          versa--and frankly--neither has shown the initiative we need to pull
          the GUild out of the doldrums it is in. As Elsa stated--we need a
          Guild Minister who doesn't just respond to requests but who actively
          LEADS!!!

          does everyone want the job?). As stated in the past, Michael and
          Coronado have been very responsive to specific petition. Maybe if
          the guildmembers petition the Circle of Black Scarces to name a Lord
          Guildmaster, with a time limit (by Beltane?), something will happen.

          We've repeatedly asked for this. Nada. It's been two years since
          Brookes left the position. Going on three. So much for
          responsiveness.*****

          I agree with Brigit here. We who are not apart of the GMoF circle do
          not see if there is anyone discussing, well, anything. It is not
          unlike other kingdoms where someone has been made a White Scarf and
          then disappears for a while. We are down to 4 GMoF/CttCotW that are
          still in kingdom (and active) from the 13 that have been awarded. I
          am not understanding why we can not have a leader.

          Staffan
        • crimsonkyl
          It was made known to me that my journeyman prize was a test and that I waas not up to snuff in certain areas of it. -Crimson ... list ... that we ... on ...
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 2, 2005
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            It was made known to me that my journeyman prize was a test and that
            I waas not up to snuff in certain areas of it.

            -Crimson

            --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Staffan Arffuidson"
            <arffuidson@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Brigit"
            > <brigitgoddess1@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Elsa and all
            >
            > *****I've been talking to some heavies recently about the whole
            list
            > field issue--several of them have stated to me that they think
            that we
            > deserve space on the list field and that it's just going to be a
            > matter of pressing polietly for it and "training" autocrats, etc.
            on
            > the idea. They have suggested that space CAN be made for a fifth
            > field (Crowns usually have four) that can run concurrently with
            heavy
            > tournaments.*****
            >
            > I agree that we (anyone who fences) need to maintain our foothold
            on
            > the eric. We have been honored with it. I am at a loss on how we
            can
            > do rapier combat as much as we used to, but we can try different
            > things as we go. We'll get it right, soon.
            >
            >
            > *****I agree that our current level of prizes is not "user
            friendly"
            > and I like the Oreathan suggestions. Prizes were historically not
            a
            > "test" but an acknowledgement of ability. Right now we run them
            as a
            > test, which I think is discouraging to advancement. Our provosts
            and
            > GMs need to be looking for people to advance and actively pushing
            them
            > to advance--based on what they are already doing and skill level
            they
            > already show. Let's stop making people FEAR their prize fight as
            if
            > it were a final in college.*****
            >
            > I did not realize anyone saw their Prize as if they were taking a
            > final. If we follow the Oerthan Guidelines, then we can hold the
            > lower prizes at a practice. We would just need to advertise them
            well
            > enough in advance so everyone who would like to attend can. What
            > suggestions do people have on how to run a Prize better? How do
            our
            > Oerthan Siblings run one?
            >
            > Also, Prize lenghts are currently being determined by the
            GuildMasters
            > and Courtiers who run them. It is something we can suggest,
            however,
            > I'd prefer to let them run Prizes how the GMoF/CttCotW as a whole
            have
            > discussed.
            >
            > *****Ah, but we don't HAVE seperate Guild events--and will we
            ever?
            > Perhaps lesser prizes could be fought at smaller events such as
            White
            > Sheild or A&S--but I don't think it is realistic at this time to
            even
            > think we will be having seperate Guild events.*****
            >
            > I agree, we should not have a seperate Guild event. That would
            just
            > push fencing further away from the West Kingdom participation that
            we
            > are maintaining. As for smaller events, I'd stay away from doing
            > those as "Guild Only" events. I want as many fencers to show up
            and
            > enjoy themselves. As for Else's comment about not bringing armor
            to
            > an event that would have Guild activities, well I would not like
            being
            > in the Guild if we can not have something for everyone.
            >
            >
            > *****I think that we should consider a Deputy Lord Guild Minister
            > position for Sorcha, with all due respect--as she would be largely
            > unavailable to the majority of the fencing population given her
            state
            > of residence. We need leadership HERE very badly in the central
            West.
            > Having our LGM in Alaska would be very much like not having one at
            > all.*****
            >
            > I disagree with you Brigit. The Lord GuildMaster should not need
            to
            > be here. They would need to be capable of maintaining the Guild
            > organization by making decisions that will help us flourish. They
            > need to be informed on what people are doing within the Guild and
            how
            > to better promote it. Now, the Guildmasters that you choose to
            learn
            > from should be (relatively) close, so you can work with them, when
            > necessary.
            >
            >
            > *****Damn straight we do and I think it is time that the rest of us
            > rise up and DEMAND that a Lord Guild Master be appointed. We are
            in
            > violation of our Charter without one. If we can't get our GMs to
            > agree on someone to lead from the GM level, then by god, we need to
            > change that part of the charter and allow members at lower ranks
            to be
            > appointed. Profiecancy in fencing does not mean ability to lead.
            We
            > need a Guild Minister who will LEAD--I could care less if they are
            a
            > Master fencer--I want a Master LEADER! Let's change the title to
            > Guild Minister of Defense and drop the Lord Guild Master.*****
            >
            > We do need a leader. Yes, we are in violation of the charter
            because
            > we do not have one. I have a suggestion, instead of removing the
            > Grant of Arms award (Guild Master), I would like to suggest that we
            > incorporate a Provost post. A position that covers the smaller
            > details, like rosters and the overall promotion of the Guild.
            There
            > is such a position in the Academie d'Espee and Lochac Royal Guild
            of
            > Defence.
            >
            >
            > *****It is, quite frankly, a function of personalities. I am not
            > afraid to say it. If neither GM wants the other to lead, why should
            > they promote the idea of appointing a LGM? This is another reason
            to
            > amend the charter to allow those of lower rank to fill the
            position.
            > Until this is done--we are looking at a stalemate, folks. We can
            > talk all we want--Doug will not agree to have Mike lead and visa
            > versa--and frankly--neither has shown the initiative we need to
            pull
            > the GUild out of the doldrums it is in. As Elsa stated--we need a
            > Guild Minister who doesn't just respond to requests but who
            actively
            > LEADS!!!
            >
            > does everyone want the job?). As stated in the past, Michael and
            > Coronado have been very responsive to specific petition. Maybe if
            > the guildmembers petition the Circle of Black Scarces to name a
            Lord
            > Guildmaster, with a time limit (by Beltane?), something will
            happen.
            >
            > We've repeatedly asked for this. Nada. It's been two years since
            > Brookes left the position. Going on three. So much for
            > responsiveness.*****
            >
            > I agree with Brigit here. We who are not apart of the GMoF circle
            do
            > not see if there is anyone discussing, well, anything. It is not
            > unlike other kingdoms where someone has been made a White Scarf and
            > then disappears for a while. We are down to 4 GMoF/CttCotW that
            are
            > still in kingdom (and active) from the 13 that have been awarded.
            I
            > am not understanding why we can not have a leader.
            >
            > Staffan
          • Else Hunrvogt
            ... As for Else s comment about not bringing armor to ... being ... Staffan, Let me clarify my comment. It s not that I wouldn t attend an event that has
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 3, 2005
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              --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Staffan Arffuidson"
              <arffuidson@y...> wrote:
              >
              As for Else's comment about not bringing armor to
              > an event that would have Guild activities, well I would not like
              being
              > in the Guild if we can not have something for everyone.

              Staffan,

              Let me clarify my comment. It's not that I wouldn't attend an event
              that has guild activities. It's that I probably wouldn't plan on
              bringing armor if all the rapier fighting time was devoted to an
              activity in which I do not/ can not participate. I can find lots of
              stuff to do at the event.

              I have no problems with prizes being fought only by guild members.
              With the prize as test model, it makes a lot of sense. You need to
              have the "examiners" in the test be familiar with the requirements at
              that level. I am the first to admit I have no idea what skills the
              WKGoD is looking for when advancing people in rank.

              Else
            • annaserre
              Not only that but he found about 40 fights, non-stop. Only the last 15 were for the actual prize because all the rest were with those with lower rank. An 1
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 4, 2005
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                Not only that but he found about 40 fights, non-stop. Only the last
                15 were for the actual "prize" because all the rest were with those
                with lower rank. An 1 1/2 hour prize is a test, not an
                acknowledgement of knowledge or skill.

                Anna

                --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "crimsonkyl"
                <crimsonkil@l...> wrote:
                >
                > It was made known to me that my journeyman prize was a test and
                that
                > I waas not up to snuff in certain areas of it.
                >
                > -Crimson
                >
                >
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