Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Grant of Arms

Expand Messages
  • crimsonkyl
    Looking at what Jeffery has stated, do people think that removing the ... No, I actually think it will alleviate some problems for the guild and ease relations
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Looking at what Jeffery has stated, do people think that removing the
      > GoA from the guild would cause problems for the future of the Guild?

      No, I actually think it will alleviate some problems for the guild and
      ease relations with some of our detractors. There will always be those
      that dislike us, but the fewer we can make their number, the better.

      -Crimson
    • Brigit
      So my question at this point is directed at Sorcha. Good lady--do you feel we will be able to make our June Crown deadline on this? It seems to me at this
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        So my question at this point is directed at Sorcha. Good lady--do you
        feel we will be able to make our June Crown deadline on this? It
        seems to me at this point we have discussed and rediscussed these
        issues to death without a clear consensus. What are your intentions,
        dear lady?

        Brigit
      • Barone Antonio Giordano da Sicilia
        ... Isn t this reason enough. The SCA lexicon has been formed over the past 40 years and the peers of the kingdom have the exclusive right to claim the title
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Richardson"
          <jeffery@m...> wrote in part:
          > "WHY? I still havn't heard a reason other than the term
          > guildmaster being seen to conflict with Master as a reason anyone
          > views this as an affront."

          Isn't this reason enough. The SCA lexicon has been formed over the
          past 40 years and the peers of the kingdom have the exclusive right
          to claim the title "master." The creation of the "guildmaster award
          is outside of the norm in this kingdom and the name of this award has
          led to friction in our kingdom. The term Courtier of the West does
          not create the same friction and as such, if this is the exclusive
          title for the grant of arms award for rapier, this aspect of friction
          would be minimized. Furthermore, by divorcing the award from the
          highest guild rank, we make this award available to all rapier
          fighters in the kingdom whether they are or are not members of the
          guild. The other important aspect of removing this tie to the guild
          is to allow the guild to elevate individuals to the highest rank
          within the guild without the Crown's sanction. In short, the guild
          can appropriately recognize an individual without the political
          stickiness of determining whether the individual deserves a grant of
          arms. This issue did arise at June Crown back in 2003 when the
          Guildmaster thought that the Crown was a rubber stamp for the award
          and was proved wrong.

          > "I think you would all be much better served to petition for a new
          > fencing related service award than to shoot yourselves in the foot
          > asking the one that exists be no longer awarded. (If you have them
          > move this to being non-guild related that is what you are doing)"

          Somehow I don't think opening up the grant of arms award for rapier
          is not effectively making it the "rapier equivalent" of a Leaf of
          Merit. By the way, the Crown (and Coronet if permitted) may award a
          Leaf of Merit for service to the rapier community as it is within
          their province to do so. We don't need a service award for rapier
          like we don't need a specific service award for heralding, the arts,
          the sciences or any other marshall art.

          > "Frankly I find moving all your Guild Masters who got there by
          > demonstrating period fence to be lumped forcefully into a group
          > that doesn't have to live up to that to be insulting to your guild
          > masters. Re: period fence tied to the award. If that's the case
          > count me not interested and having no respect whatsoever for your
          > new award system. I suspect you will get much the same reaction
          > from the Crown and peerage."

          The contentiousness of this opinion is rather transparent. Rhetoric
          of this nature reminds me of the addage: "when the law is against
          you, argue the facts and when the facts are against you, argue the
          law, and if the facts and the law are against you, pound on the table
          and raise your voice.

          > "Do they have to use period systems - No - but that's part of my
          > problem with the heavy community as well. Far too many play the
          > sport and become really good at it but don't know squat about the
          > historical stuff they are supposed to be basing things on. It's
          > why some of our best historical martial arts researchers left the
          > SCA behind. Don't take my word for it - Ask Bob Charron or
          > Christien Tobler why they left the SCA behind. Ask Brian Price why
          > he started his own group outside the SCA even though he still pays
          > with the SCA. But, it's not in my cards to try and change the
          > heavy community, that needs to happen from within if it is going to
          > happen. For the record I see change towards the historical there
          > as well - it's just slower."

          I believe that you would modify your views if you had more
          conversations with the Chivalry of our Kingdom. Western knights are
          remarkably well versed in the history of Chivalry, the path to
          knighthood and the weapons of the knight. This is exactly why the
          individuals that you listed above are professional authors... because
          these books are being sold and read. I would put forward the
          position that the Order of Chivalry in the West does have a
          foundation of historical knowledge that is equal to the top two ranks
          within the guild in terms of rapier. Perhaps your position was
          correct eight to ten years ago, but in the West, your position is
          incongruous with reality.

          > "Have you seen fit to suggest to the Crown that another award be
          > created that hinges on pure competitiveness on the fencing field
          > and/or service to the fencing community and the SCA without needing
          > the period stuff?

          We already have the Ash Leaf and the Leaf of Merit.

          > Again - you have as close to a fencing peerage in the kingdom as
          > you are ever going to get. I don't see why you would want to
          > reduce that to a run of the mill guild status.

          It is not a peerage and that is the point. The Guildmaster award,
          i.e. a grant of arms, has been previously viewed with suspicion and
          disregard. We have an opportunity to bring this award into the
          mainstream of West Kingdom culture. When the SCA creates a peerage
          for Rapier, Archery and Equestrian arts, then the West will have such
          a "fourth" peerage. (This discussion gets raised every few years.)
          Until then, we in the West will live with three peerages: the Order
          of Chivalry, the Order of the Laurel and the Order of the Pelican.

          Can a rapier fighter become a peer without becoming a member of the
          Order of Chivalry? Yes, through study and teaching, a rapier fighter
          may become a Laurel and by service to the kingdom, said rapier
          fighter may find him/or/herself before the Order of the Pelican.

          Should the guild have a monopoly on the grant of arms award for
          rapier? I say no. In fairness, it should be open to all rapier
          fighters who deserve the Crown's reward.

          Let's look to our goal and act accordingly. Are we trying to achieve
          a peerage for rapier in this kingdom or are we looking towards
          maintaining and promoting rapier within the mainstream of the
          kingdom. The proposed amendment to the charter doesn't please
          everyone 100%, but it does look towards fostering a strong guild
          within the kingdom that will be able to maintain and promote period
          rapier. This is a noble goal and I would hope that we can move in
          this direction.

          Respectfully,

          Barone Antonio
          Journeyman
        • Else Hunrvogt
          ... wrote: Also 11 people voting is hardly representative of the ... list who ... these ... skewed and ... I did not participate in the poll, so
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 3, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Richardson"
            <jeffery@m...> wrote:
            Also 11 people voting is hardly representative of the
            > guild especially considering there are non guild members on the
            list who
            > have specifically stated they are not guild members by choice. If
            these
            > people have participated in the poll then the numbers are further
            skewed and
            > even less representative of the guild.


            I did not participate in the poll, so I can't tell who said what.
            Those results are only shown if one responded to the poll. What I
            can enumerate are the responses to this list since Sorcha posted her
            proposal.

            I have divided people into Support or opposed based on their
            responses here since Monday when the proposal was posted through
            about 9 am on Friday. My apologies if I misinterpreted an
            individual's response and placed him or her into the wrong catagory.
            I have people in the following catagories (cross referenced by rank):

            Support:
            Puck Non-member
            Alail Non-member
            Else Non-member
            Brigit Free Scholar
            Santiago Free Scholar
            Staffan Journeyman
            Saor Journeyman
            Antonio Journeyman
            Simon Journeyman
            Crimson Journeyman
            Christina Journeyman
            Viola Journeyman/Provost Candidate
            Sorcha AGoF

            Oppose:
            David Provost
            Geoffrey Provost/AnTir


            With 15 respondants on a list of 32 that gives us a 46.9% response
            rate which is fairly phenomenal for survey work. If we remove non-
            guild members we have 12 responses from a possible pool of 28 for a
            response rate of 46.4%

            In total 13 out of 15 individuals support this proposal - 86.7%

            Among guildmembers, support is 10/12 or 83.3%

            If you would like to exclude "new/inexperienced" guildmembers (I
            defined this as Scholars and Free Scholars.) the result is 8/10 or
            80.0% support

            If you limit the poll to guildmembers resident in the West kingdom
            the result is 10/11 or 90.9% of all Guild respondants support the
            proposal and 8/9 or 88.9% of Journeyman or above support the proposal.

            I hope these summary eases some of the concerns over lack of general
            guild support, too much influence by non-guild members, and/or a call
            for change by those who lack experience.

            Else
            no one in particular
          • Puck Curtis
            ... Just FYI, I think I m a scholar within the Guild. I m planning on playing a prize when I can and I ve been talking to my local GMs about the specifics.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 3, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              > Support:
              > Puck Non-member

              Just FYI, I think I'm a scholar within the Guild. I'm planning on
              playing a prize when I can and I've been talking to my local GMs about
              the specifics.

              Puck
            • David Falcon
              .... I hope these summary eases some of the concerns over lack of general ... call for change by those who lack experience. ... Nicely done. But the results
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 3, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                ....> I hope these summary eases some of the concerns over lack of
                general
                > guild support, too much influence by non-guild members, and/or a
                call for change by those who lack experience.
                >
                > Else

                Nicely done.
                But the results could also be summarized as

                From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as being predisposed to
                change, this proposal for change has so far failed to achieve majority
                support

                David
              • Barone Antonio Giordano da Sicilia
                ... I believe that this guild has suffered due to a lack of leadership and I am grateful that Her Ladyship stepped up to take on that responsibility. Yes, the
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 3, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "David Falcon"
                  <dkball@h...> wrote:
                  > But the results could also be summarized as
                  >
                  > From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as being predisposed
                  > to change, this proposal for change has so far failed to achieve
                  > majority support

                  I believe that this guild has suffered due to a lack of leadership
                  and I am grateful that Her Ladyship stepped up to take on that
                  responsibility. Yes, the guild is changing under the leadership of
                  our Guildmaster and of the people who have voiced an opinion on this
                  proposal, the course is relatively clear, i.e. we are willing to
                  support our Guildmaster. The numbers speak for themselves. This
                  proposal is an excellent and reasonable effort that deserves our
                  support.

                  If there are those whose response is silence, then that is their
                  choice. The maxim of the law is "qui tacit consentire" or "silence
                  gives consent." As such, their silence should not be counted as a
                  lack of support.

                  Ultimately, I disagree with your views. The proposal has shown
                  itself to have sufficient support within the guild. Furthermore, as
                  the Guildmaster has been selected by the Crown, the Guildmaster has a
                  duty to do the right thing, note merely the popular thing. She is
                  the Crown's representative even as she is the guild's
                  representative. Afterall, this is not a democracy.

                  Respectfully,

                  Antonio
                • Nytshaed(Douglas Leonard)
                  ... Not unless I was a minority attempting to block the progress of the Vast majority for my own agenda. Jeffrey, You and I have been through the thick and the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 3, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- David Falcon <dkball@...> wrote:
                    > Nicely done.
                    > But the results could also be summarized as
                    >
                    > From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as
                    > being predisposed to
                    > change, this proposal for change has so far failed
                    > to achieve majority
                    > support
                    >
                    > David

                    Not unless I was a minority attempting to block the
                    progress of the Vast majority for my own agenda.


                    Jeffrey,
                    You and I have been through the thick and the
                    painfully thin of it these past years and I have
                    always been glad to have your support of West Rapier
                    on our team as we fought, overcame, and often
                    converted folks to the cause. Heh, you have certainly
                    attended more West Rapier events than at least half
                    the folks in this discussion.

                    Years ago at Estrella the RMIC's of most of the
                    principal kingdoms were talking about whether the West
                    should be allowed at the War - now our highest award
                    is unanimously accorded the same honors as the highest
                    award in those same Kingdoms. Even more telling about
                    how they view us as individuals is that more than one
                    of us has been approached about receiving the White
                    scarf itself from their crowns.

                    The changes, respect, and indeed trust have come
                    from being there year after year talking and working
                    side by side with those same people and their
                    successors.

                    If the crown follows Sorcha's reccomendation to
                    open the award then those who choose to excel by
                    placing their effort into the athletic aspects can
                    also be recognized by our crown. I have no doubt that
                    those worthy of such recognition will be happily
                    accepted in our neighboring kingdoms as such.

                    I would never make the top Rank of the guild a
                    default as suggested by David. It would cheapen it
                    ridiculously. If we as a guild choose not to
                    recognize a person as having the qualities of a
                    Guildmaster there should be no backdoor for Hot
                    Steelers who happen to garner the favor of one Crown.

                    I supposed I could have shortened this to 'I support
                    the charter as Proposed' ...

                    But that is not Nytshaed's way - cope. :)



                    __________________________________
                    Discover Yahoo!
                    Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
                    http://discover.yahoo.com/
                  • Zebee Johnstone
                    ... I m not sure I d class Don Aylwin Greymane or Don Angus as only hot steelers :) It is true that both of them wallopate me on a regular basis (Angus
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 4, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 6/4/05, Nytshaed(Douglas Leonard) <nytshaed1967@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > I would never make the top Rank of the guild a
                      > default as suggested by David. It would cheapen it
                      > ridiculously. If we as a guild choose not to
                      > recognize a person as having the qualities of a
                      > Guildmaster there should be no backdoor for Hot
                      > Steelers who happen to garner the favor of one Crown.

                      I'm not sure I'd class Don Aylwin Greymane or Don Angus as only "hot
                      steelers" :)

                      It is true that both of them wallopate me on a regular basis (Angus
                      because he lives in my group, Aylwin only gets to skewer me a couple
                      of times a year) and it is also true that I do a lot more historical
                      research and teaching of and fencing with historical techniques than
                      either of them.

                      Which is why I'm a Guildmaster and they aren't, and why they are White
                      Scarves and I'm not.

                      They aren't just good fencers though. They are also men of honour,
                      chivalry, courtesy. Men who have worked hard for both fencing and the
                      Kingdom and are still working hard. The kind of people that I would
                      think of when seeing a title like "Courtier". I am glad their
                      ability and grace and contribution to Lochac has been recognised at
                      the high level of a Grant award, and I'm glad that my ability and
                      contribution to the Kingdom has been recognised by my peers - the
                      Guildmasters of the Lochac Guild of Defence - some of whom are also
                      White Scarves, and some of whom aren't.

                      I think it's a little harsh to think that the people the Crown would
                      recognise as those who have made significant contribution to the
                      Kingdom as well as to fencing have only fencing wins to their credit.
                      There's always going to be a lot more than just being a "hot steeler".

                      The key seems to be "must someone be very solid in period fence to be
                      a Courtier, only a little, or not at all?". If "only a little or not
                      at all", then how to recognise those whose thing in the SCA is period
                      fence? If "very solid", how to recognise those whose thing in the SCA
                      is fence but not period fence? Is it legitimate to recognise them at
                      all?

                      Silfren
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.