Re: Grant of Arms
- Looking at what Jeffery has stated, do people think that removing the
> GoA from the guild would cause problems for the future of the Guild?No, I actually think it will alleviate some problems for the guild and
ease relations with some of our detractors. There will always be those
that dislike us, but the fewer we can make their number, the better.
- So my question at this point is directed at Sorcha. Good lady--do you
feel we will be able to make our June Crown deadline on this? It
seems to me at this point we have discussed and rediscussed these
issues to death without a clear consensus. What are your intentions,
- --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Richardson"
<jeffery@m...> wrote in part:
> "WHY? I still havn't heard a reason other than the termIsn't this reason enough. The SCA lexicon has been formed over the
> guildmaster being seen to conflict with Master as a reason anyone
> views this as an affront."
past 40 years and the peers of the kingdom have the exclusive right
to claim the title "master." The creation of the "guildmaster award
is outside of the norm in this kingdom and the name of this award has
led to friction in our kingdom. The term Courtier of the West does
not create the same friction and as such, if this is the exclusive
title for the grant of arms award for rapier, this aspect of friction
would be minimized. Furthermore, by divorcing the award from the
highest guild rank, we make this award available to all rapier
fighters in the kingdom whether they are or are not members of the
guild. The other important aspect of removing this tie to the guild
is to allow the guild to elevate individuals to the highest rank
within the guild without the Crown's sanction. In short, the guild
can appropriately recognize an individual without the political
stickiness of determining whether the individual deserves a grant of
arms. This issue did arise at June Crown back in 2003 when the
Guildmaster thought that the Crown was a rubber stamp for the award
and was proved wrong.
> "I think you would all be much better served to petition for a newSomehow I don't think opening up the grant of arms award for rapier
> fencing related service award than to shoot yourselves in the foot
> asking the one that exists be no longer awarded. (If you have them
> move this to being non-guild related that is what you are doing)"
is not effectively making it the "rapier equivalent" of a Leaf of
Merit. By the way, the Crown (and Coronet if permitted) may award a
Leaf of Merit for service to the rapier community as it is within
their province to do so. We don't need a service award for rapier
like we don't need a specific service award for heralding, the arts,
the sciences or any other marshall art.
> "Frankly I find moving all your Guild Masters who got there byThe contentiousness of this opinion is rather transparent. Rhetoric
> demonstrating period fence to be lumped forcefully into a group
> that doesn't have to live up to that to be insulting to your guild
> masters. Re: period fence tied to the award. If that's the case
> count me not interested and having no respect whatsoever for your
> new award system. I suspect you will get much the same reaction
> from the Crown and peerage."
of this nature reminds me of the addage: "when the law is against
you, argue the facts and when the facts are against you, argue the
law, and if the facts and the law are against you, pound on the table
and raise your voice.
> "Do they have to use period systems - No - but that's part of myI believe that you would modify your views if you had more
> problem with the heavy community as well. Far too many play the
> sport and become really good at it but don't know squat about the
> historical stuff they are supposed to be basing things on. It's
> why some of our best historical martial arts researchers left the
> SCA behind. Don't take my word for it - Ask Bob Charron or
> Christien Tobler why they left the SCA behind. Ask Brian Price why
> he started his own group outside the SCA even though he still pays
> with the SCA. But, it's not in my cards to try and change the
> heavy community, that needs to happen from within if it is going to
> happen. For the record I see change towards the historical there
> as well - it's just slower."
conversations with the Chivalry of our Kingdom. Western knights are
remarkably well versed in the history of Chivalry, the path to
knighthood and the weapons of the knight. This is exactly why the
individuals that you listed above are professional authors... because
these books are being sold and read. I would put forward the
position that the Order of Chivalry in the West does have a
foundation of historical knowledge that is equal to the top two ranks
within the guild in terms of rapier. Perhaps your position was
correct eight to ten years ago, but in the West, your position is
incongruous with reality.
> "Have you seen fit to suggest to the Crown that another award beWe already have the Ash Leaf and the Leaf of Merit.
> created that hinges on pure competitiveness on the fencing field
> and/or service to the fencing community and the SCA without needing
> the period stuff?
> Again - you have as close to a fencing peerage in the kingdom asIt is not a peerage and that is the point. The Guildmaster award,
> you are ever going to get. I don't see why you would want to
> reduce that to a run of the mill guild status.
i.e. a grant of arms, has been previously viewed with suspicion and
disregard. We have an opportunity to bring this award into the
mainstream of West Kingdom culture. When the SCA creates a peerage
for Rapier, Archery and Equestrian arts, then the West will have such
a "fourth" peerage. (This discussion gets raised every few years.)
Until then, we in the West will live with three peerages: the Order
of Chivalry, the Order of the Laurel and the Order of the Pelican.
Can a rapier fighter become a peer without becoming a member of the
Order of Chivalry? Yes, through study and teaching, a rapier fighter
may become a Laurel and by service to the kingdom, said rapier
fighter may find him/or/herself before the Order of the Pelican.
Should the guild have a monopoly on the grant of arms award for
rapier? I say no. In fairness, it should be open to all rapier
fighters who deserve the Crown's reward.
Let's look to our goal and act accordingly. Are we trying to achieve
a peerage for rapier in this kingdom or are we looking towards
maintaining and promoting rapier within the mainstream of the
kingdom. The proposed amendment to the charter doesn't please
everyone 100%, but it does look towards fostering a strong guild
within the kingdom that will be able to maintain and promote period
rapier. This is a noble goal and I would hope that we can move in
- --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Richardson"
Also 11 people voting is hardly representative of the
> guild especially considering there are non guild members on thelist who
> have specifically stated they are not guild members by choice. Ifthese
> people have participated in the poll then the numbers are furtherskewed and
> even less representative of the guild.I did not participate in the poll, so I can't tell who said what.
Those results are only shown if one responded to the poll. What I
can enumerate are the responses to this list since Sorcha posted her
I have divided people into Support or opposed based on their
responses here since Monday when the proposal was posted through
about 9 am on Friday. My apologies if I misinterpreted an
individual's response and placed him or her into the wrong catagory.
I have people in the following catagories (cross referenced by rank):
Brigit Free Scholar
Santiago Free Scholar
Viola Journeyman/Provost Candidate
With 15 respondants on a list of 32 that gives us a 46.9% response
rate which is fairly phenomenal for survey work. If we remove non-
guild members we have 12 responses from a possible pool of 28 for a
response rate of 46.4%
In total 13 out of 15 individuals support this proposal - 86.7%
Among guildmembers, support is 10/12 or 83.3%
If you would like to exclude "new/inexperienced" guildmembers (I
defined this as Scholars and Free Scholars.) the result is 8/10 or
If you limit the poll to guildmembers resident in the West kingdom
the result is 10/11 or 90.9% of all Guild respondants support the
proposal and 8/9 or 88.9% of Journeyman or above support the proposal.
I hope these summary eases some of the concerns over lack of general
guild support, too much influence by non-guild members, and/or a call
for change by those who lack experience.
no one in particular
> Support:Just FYI, I think I'm a scholar within the Guild. I'm planning on
> Puck Non-member
playing a prize when I can and I've been talking to my local GMs about
- ....> I hope these summary eases some of the concerns over lack of
> guild support, too much influence by non-guild members, and/or acall for change by those who lack experience.
But the results could also be summarized as
From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as being predisposed to
change, this proposal for change has so far failed to achieve majority
- --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "David Falcon"
> But the results could also be summarized asI believe that this guild has suffered due to a lack of leadership
> From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as being predisposed
> to change, this proposal for change has so far failed to achieve
> majority support
and I am grateful that Her Ladyship stepped up to take on that
responsibility. Yes, the guild is changing under the leadership of
our Guildmaster and of the people who have voiced an opinion on this
proposal, the course is relatively clear, i.e. we are willing to
support our Guildmaster. The numbers speak for themselves. This
proposal is an excellent and reasonable effort that deserves our
If there are those whose response is silence, then that is their
choice. The maxim of the law is "qui tacit consentire" or "silence
gives consent." As such, their silence should not be counted as a
lack of support.
Ultimately, I disagree with your views. The proposal has shown
itself to have sufficient support within the guild. Furthermore, as
the Guildmaster has been selected by the Crown, the Guildmaster has a
duty to do the right thing, note merely the popular thing. She is
the Crown's representative even as she is the guild's
representative. Afterall, this is not a democracy.
- --- David Falcon <dkball@...> wrote:
> Nicely done.Not unless I was a minority attempting to block the
> But the results could also be summarized as
> From a subgroup of fencers who self identified as
> being predisposed to
> change, this proposal for change has so far failed
> to achieve majority
progress of the Vast majority for my own agenda.
You and I have been through the thick and the
painfully thin of it these past years and I have
always been glad to have your support of West Rapier
on our team as we fought, overcame, and often
converted folks to the cause. Heh, you have certainly
attended more West Rapier events than at least half
the folks in this discussion.
Years ago at Estrella the RMIC's of most of the
principal kingdoms were talking about whether the West
should be allowed at the War - now our highest award
is unanimously accorded the same honors as the highest
award in those same Kingdoms. Even more telling about
how they view us as individuals is that more than one
of us has been approached about receiving the White
scarf itself from their crowns.
The changes, respect, and indeed trust have come
from being there year after year talking and working
side by side with those same people and their
If the crown follows Sorcha's reccomendation to
open the award then those who choose to excel by
placing their effort into the athletic aspects can
also be recognized by our crown. I have no doubt that
those worthy of such recognition will be happily
accepted in our neighboring kingdoms as such.
I would never make the top Rank of the guild a
default as suggested by David. It would cheapen it
ridiculously. If we as a guild choose not to
recognize a person as having the qualities of a
Guildmaster there should be no backdoor for Hot
Steelers who happen to garner the favor of one Crown.
I supposed I could have shortened this to 'I support
the charter as Proposed' ...
But that is not Nytshaed's way - cope. :)
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- On 6/4/05, Nytshaed(Douglas Leonard) <nytshaed1967@...> wrote:
>I'm not sure I'd class Don Aylwin Greymane or Don Angus as only "hot
> I would never make the top Rank of the guild a
> default as suggested by David. It would cheapen it
> ridiculously. If we as a guild choose not to
> recognize a person as having the qualities of a
> Guildmaster there should be no backdoor for Hot
> Steelers who happen to garner the favor of one Crown.
It is true that both of them wallopate me on a regular basis (Angus
because he lives in my group, Aylwin only gets to skewer me a couple
of times a year) and it is also true that I do a lot more historical
research and teaching of and fencing with historical techniques than
either of them.
Which is why I'm a Guildmaster and they aren't, and why they are White
Scarves and I'm not.
They aren't just good fencers though. They are also men of honour,
chivalry, courtesy. Men who have worked hard for both fencing and the
Kingdom and are still working hard. The kind of people that I would
think of when seeing a title like "Courtier". I am glad their
ability and grace and contribution to Lochac has been recognised at
the high level of a Grant award, and I'm glad that my ability and
contribution to the Kingdom has been recognised by my peers - the
Guildmasters of the Lochac Guild of Defence - some of whom are also
White Scarves, and some of whom aren't.
I think it's a little harsh to think that the people the Crown would
recognise as those who have made significant contribution to the
Kingdom as well as to fencing have only fencing wins to their credit.
There's always going to be a lot more than just being a "hot steeler".
The key seems to be "must someone be very solid in period fence to be
a Courtier, only a little, or not at all?". If "only a little or not
at all", then how to recognise those whose thing in the SCA is period
fence? If "very solid", how to recognise those whose thing in the SCA
is fence but not period fence? Is it legitimate to recognise them at