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Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

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  • pressurestat@rocketmail.com
    Topic for discussion: proper presentation of the Guild Badge. The original guild badge was set out in the Guild Charter/by-laws and was to be presented in
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Topic for discussion: proper presentation of the Guild Badge.
      The original guild badge was set out in the Guild Charter/by-laws and was to be presented in either silver or gold depending on the rank of the wearer. The new badge has been passed by the Heralds as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert". I don't know if it would be proper/desirable to present the new badge in just one color. The options I see are;
      1.Present the new badge in mono-color (silver or gold) just like the old one
      2.Present the new badge as blazoned but specifying in the bylaws what ranks would use what background color (being fieldless any background color may be used). The background color options that occur to me are;
      A. Silver or Gold as per the convention of the old charter (but the gold book might not show up on a gold background)
      B. Green, Blue, or Black as per the sash colors of the old by-laws (with maybe using red instead of green so the sword has some contrast)
      3.Present the badge as blazoned, fieldless so that the badge artisan has maximum freedom, but specify that a silver or gold bezel or founding be used to denote the rank of the owner as in the convention of the old by-laws (I like this one)
      I'm working on a mold to make some badges but am hesitant to put much work into it until I am sure I understand the rules. I'd be willing to edit the current charter/by-laws once the issues are settled so that it may be officially approved. So..... what-da-ya-think?
      David Falcone
    • Paul Sawtell
      Call me old fashioned - and I am - but Iike the old silver or gold badges. Would that make it easier to cast in either silver or gold (mind you even in 9 carat
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
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        Call me old fashioned – and I am – but Iike the old silver or gold badges.  Would that make it easier to cast in either silver or gold (mind you even in 9 carat gold it would be hideously expensive at today’s gold prices)

         

        And we could outline the gold book in black to make it show up better as we could with the rapier.

         

        Or as a second preference the 2A. silver/gold or the 2B. sash colours work for me as well.

         

        Good luck with the physical creation of the badge (and I say in advance I’d like to get one)

         

        Yours in service to the international SCA

         

         

        Edmund the Lame

        Ancient Guildmaster of Fence

         

        I may be strange but may I never be a stranger

         

         

        From: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pressurestat@...
        Sent: April-01-11 11:29 PM
        To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

         

         

        Topic for discussion: proper presentation of the Guild Badge.
        The original guild badge was set out in the Guild Charter/by-laws and was to be presented in either silver or gold depending on the rank of the wearer. The new badge has been passed by the Heralds as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert". I don't know if it would be proper/desirable to present the new badge in just one color. The options I see are;
        1.Present the new badge in mono-color (silver or gold) just like the old one
        2.Present the new badge as blazoned but specifying in the bylaws what ranks would use what background color (being fieldless any background color may be used). The background color options that occur to me are;
        A. Silver or Gold as per the convention of the old charter (but the gold book might not show up on a gold background)
        B. Green, Blue, or Black as per the sash colors of the old by-laws (with maybe using red instead of green so the sword has some contrast)
        3.Present the badge as blazoned, fieldless so that the badge artisan has maximum freedom, but specify that a silver or gold bezel or founding be used to denote the rank of the owner as in the convention of the old by-laws (I like this one)
        I'm working on a mold to make some badges but am hesitant to put much work into it until I am sure I understand the rules. I'd be willing to edit the current charter/by-laws once the issues are settled so that it may be officially approved. So..... what-da-ya-think?
        David Falcone

      • pressurestat@rocketmail.com
        ... It is always easier to cast one color than more than one. I just don t know if one color is heraldicly proper. And sometimes more colors are just worth the
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
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          --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Sawtell" <paulsawtell@...> wrote:
          >
          > Call me old fashioned - and I am - but Iike the old silver or gold >badges. Would that make it easier to cast in either silver or gold
          It is always easier to cast one color than more than one. I just don't know if one color is heraldicly proper. And sometimes more colors are just worth the effort.

          >(mind you even in 9 carat gold it would be hideously expensive at today's gold prices)
          Real gold? maybe in plate or foil, but "Or" can be paint, brass, glass, enamel, etc. And then there's the "10 foot rule": "if it looks right from 10 feet, it is right" <grin>
          The "old" badges I did were in pewter.

          > And we could outline the gold book in black to make it show up >better as we could with the rapier.
          True, but at the cost of complexity (maybe more so than solid colors)

          > Or as a second preference the 2A. silver/gold or the 2B. sash >colours work for me as well.
          > Good luck with the physical creation of the badge (and I say in >advance I'd like to get one)
          > Edmund the Lame Ancient Guildmaster of Fence

          Thank you, and I hope that a process can be arrived at that will allow enough badges so that everyone can have one. (let's see... 2k/oz for gold... 4oz per badge... advanced/prepaid orders being accepted NOW!!!!!)
          David Falcone
        • Beth Berry (Sorcha Careman)
          I tend to like both a fighting badge and a dress up badge. I have used the metal one I received for off the field with my court garb. For fighting I have been
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
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            I tend to like both a fighting badge and a dress up badge.  I have used the metal one I received for off the field with my court garb.
            For fighting I have been painting the badge in silver (for FreeScholar through Provost) and in gold (for Guildmaster) on a black leather lozenge.
            The badge shows up well, with a minimal amount of black pen work to bring out the detail.  I can sew it on and don't need to worry about losing it on a fighting field by falling off.

            I think the new badge design will lend itself well to this, and most folks can gain the skills to do a little painting on leather, where not everyone can work in metal or afford a metal badge.

            Sorcha

            On 4/1/2011 9:29 PM, pressurestat@... wrote:
             

            Topic for discussion: proper presentation of the Guild Badge.
            The original guild badge was set out in the Guild Charter/by-laws and was to be presented in either silver or gold depending on the rank of the wearer. The new badge has been passed by the Heralds as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert". I don't know if it would be proper/desirable to present the new badge in just one color. The options I see are;
            1.Present the new badge in mono-color (silver or gold) just like the old one
            2.Present the new badge as blazoned but specifying in the bylaws what ranks would use what background color (being fieldless any background color may be used). The background color options that occur to me are;
            A. Silver or Gold as per the convention of the old charter (but the gold book might not show up on a gold background)
            B. Green, Blue, or Black as per the sash colors of the old by-laws (with maybe using red instead of green so the sword has some contrast)
            3.Present the badge as blazoned, fieldless so that the badge artisan has maximum freedom, but specify that a silver or gold bezel or founding be used to denote the rank of the owner as in the convention of the old by-laws (I like this one)
            I'm working on a mold to make some badges but am hesitant to put much work into it until I am sure I understand the rules. I'd be willing to edit the current charter/by-laws once the issues are settled so that it may be officially approved. So..... what-da-ya-think?
            David Falcone

          • Nytshaed(Douglas Leonard)
              Lets leave this open for discussion a bit longer and consider changing the original method of translating to mono for metal badges.    With that said
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 3, 2011
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                Lets leave this open for discussion a bit longer and consider changing the original method
              of translating to mono for metal badges.
               
                 With that said there has always been the traditional interpretation of badges and even Arms
              in the SCA that allows alot of freedom in the final display, so all of the options discussed
              are perfectly acceptable ways to display the badge within our normal bounds.
               
                 My inclination is to have a couple specific forms that can denote rank(the metals) and lots
              of options(the color in whatever material) that are useful for anyone.
                to sumup at this time:
               
              mono badge in silver: Free Scholor, Journeyman, Provost
              Mono badge in Gold: Guildmaster, Ancient Guildmaster
              Color as blazoned is fieldless so it can go on anything to denote rank or not.


              From: Beth Berry (Sorcha Careman) <sorcha@...>
              To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 5:34:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

               

              I tend to like both a fighting badge and a dress up badge.  I have used the metal one I received for off the field with my court garb.
              For fighting I have been painting the badge in silver (for FreeScholar through Provost) and in gold (for Guildmaster) on a black leather lozenge.
              The badge shows up well, with a minimal amount of black pen work to bring out the detail.  I can sew it on and don't need to worry about losing it on a fighting field by falling off.

              I think the new badge design will lend itself well to this, and most folks can gain the skills to do a little painting on leather, where not everyone can work in metal or afford a metal badge.

              Sorcha

              On 4/1/2011 9:29 PM, pressurestat@... wrote:
               

              Topic for discussion: proper presentation of the Guild Badge.
              The original guild badge was set out in the Guild Charter/by-laws and was to be presented in either silver or gold depending on the rank of the wearer. The new badge has been passed by the Heralds as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert". I don't know if it would be proper/desirable to present the new badge in just one color. The options I see are;
              1.Present the new badge in mono-color (silver or gold) just like the old one
              2.Present the new badge as blazoned but specifying in the bylaws what ranks would use what background color (being fieldless any background color may be used). The background color options that occur to me are;
              A. Silver or Gold as per the convention of the old charter (but the gold book might not show up on a gold background)
              B. Green, Blue, or Black as per the sash colors of the old by-laws (with maybe using red instead of green so the sword has some contrast)
              3.Present the badge as blazoned, fieldless so that the badge artisan has maximum freedom, but specify that a silver or gold bezel or founding be used to denote the rank of the owner as in the convention of the old by-laws (I like this one)
              I'm working on a mold to make some badges but am hesitant to put much work into it until I am sure I understand the rules. I'd be willing to edit the current charter/by-laws once the issues are settled so that it may be officially approved. So..... what-da-ya-think?
              David Falcone

            • pressurestat@rocketmail.com
              I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think? The line in the Charter
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 3, 2011
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                I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?


                The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                "is granted the right to be known by
                said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."

                Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;

                The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).

                David Falcone
              • brigitgoddess1
                I think that sounds good. Brigit
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 3, 2011
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                  I think that sounds good.

                  Brigit

                  --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." <pressurestat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?
                  >
                  >
                  > The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                  > "is granted the right to be known by
                  > said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."
                  >
                  > Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;
                  >
                  > The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                  > Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                  > Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                  > Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).
                  >
                  > David Falcone
                  >
                • Nytshaed(Douglas Leonard)
                  ... https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0c8Yzu6u2ueZmU1OWZjNDUtNjNjNS00ZGIwLWI0ZTgtMDhkOTZjZTc4NTgx&hl=en&pli=1 ... Scholar: Any person who professes an
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 5, 2011
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                      Currently the charter reads:
                    >>>>>
                    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0c8Yzu6u2ueZmU1OWZjNDUtNjNjNS00ZGIwLWI0ZTgtMDhkOTZjZTc4NTgx&hl=en&pli=1
                    >>>>>
                    Scholar: Any person who professes an interest in the Guild of Fence shall be admitted to the rank of
                    Scholar. There are no requirements beyond an interest in Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and the
                    study of period forms. A Scholar is granted the right to be known by said rank and may wear the
                    badge of the guild in a tincture, that being a color other than silver or gold.
                     
                    Free Scholar: A fighter, who is a member of the Guild, continues their studies in the art of rapier and
                    has successfully played the Free Scholar Prize. A Free Scholar is granted the right to be known by
                    said rank and to wear the badge of the guild in silver.
                     
                    Journeyman: An accomplished fighter, who has shown skill and dedication to Rapier in the West,
                    continues in their studies of period forms and has successfully played the Journeyman Prize. A
                    Journeyman is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a green sash and the guild
                    badge in silver.
                     
                    Provost: An accomplished fighter who shares their skill and knowledge through the medium of
                    teaching, continues in their personal studies of period schools and has successfully played the
                    Provost Prize. A Provost is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Blue sash and
                    the guild badge in silver.
                     
                    Guildmaster of Fence: A teacher of period Rapier who has contributed significantly to the
                    advancement of Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and works on directing the course of the Guild.
                    A Guildmaster of Fence is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Black sash or
                    glove and the guild badge in gold.
                    >>>
                      For ease of reading the bylaws repeat those last sentences(the sashes and badges bit) verbatim at each rank.
                    >>>>>
                     
                       Charter changes have taken years to accomplish in the past and I don't expect them any faster these days which
                    is why the bylaws were put into place so we could more rapidly adjust to guild needs.  So I'll take that one off the table
                    right now.  Sorcha and the LGm's before her have honed a very clean and flexible document and only a very serious need is going to get a change to the Charter itself within the time frame of my still being LGm.
                     
                       Ultimately the only change I see is adding that bezel, which you are welcome to do on your own and while I don't see any pressing need to add it even to the bylaws I am open to you submitting a proposal to change the bylaws and I'll submit it to the officers and ultimately the guild for consensus.
                     
                       It's a good time to do that as you have an excellent point that our bylaws do not contain our now approved Guild badge blazon which occured after I took office through years of diligent effort of AGm Sorcha.  So I have to make changes anyway and if there is sufficient support of the bezel option being explicit I can accomodate the member's wishes with a minimum of iterations.
                     
                       With the Sashes at each rank making a new section just for badges splits the information, so it would be included at each level as it is now.
                     
                       One note on the phrasing below: "Granted the right" explicitly means that all higher ranks still maintain the right to wear lower rank indicators so :
                     
                    "(a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them). "
                     
                    is handled.
                     
                    Glad to see some activity in this list.  Please fellow guildies, feel free to voice your opinion on anything as this is really the clearest window I have to see the Guild member's wishes.
                     
                    Nytshaed, LGm West Kingdom Royal Guild of Fence


                    From: brigitgoddess1 <brigitgoddess1@...>
                    To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 9:13:34 PM
                    Subject: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Re: Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

                     

                    I think that sounds good.

                    Brigit

                    --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." <pressurestat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?
                    >
                    >
                    > The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                    > "is granted the right to be known by
                    > said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."
                    >
                    > Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;
                    >
                    > The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                    > Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                    > Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                    > Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).
                    >
                    > David Falcone
                    >

                  • jeffery@mind.net
                    I think it is splitting hairs. But I don t see any reason for a change as written. The badge is specified as fieldless, therefore it could be worn on
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 5, 2011
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                      I think it is splitting hairs.  But I don't see any reason for a change as written.  The badge is specified as fieldless, therefore it could be worn on anything - including a bezel of any shape you like.

                      Lessingham - GM



                      On Tue 04/05/11 05:07:00 PM , "Nytshaed\(Douglas Leonard\)" nytshaed1967@... sent:
                        Currently the charter reads:
                      >>>>>
                      https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0c8Yzu6u2ueZmU1OWZjNDUtNjNjNS00ZGIwLWI0ZTgtMDhkOTZjZTc4NTgx&hl=en&pli=1
                      >>>>>
                      Scholar: Any person who professes an interest in the Guild of Fence shall be admitted to the rank of
                      Scholar. There are no requirements beyond an interest in Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and the
                      study of period forms. A Scholar is granted the right to be known by said rank and may wear the
                      badge of the guild in a tincture, that being a color other than silver or gold.
                       
                      Free Scholar: A fighter, who is a member of the Guild, continues their studies in the art of rapier and
                      has successfully played the Free Scholar Prize. A Free Scholar is granted the right to be known by
                      said rank and to wear the badge of the guild in silver.
                       
                      Journeyman: An accomplished fighter, who has shown skill and dedication to Rapier in the West,
                      continues in their studies of period forms and has successfully played the Journeyman Prize. A
                      Journeyman is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a green sash and the guild
                      badge in silver.
                       
                      Provost: An accomplished fighter who shares their skill and knowledge through the medium of
                      teaching, continues in their personal studies of period schools and has successfully played the
                      Provost Prize. A Provost is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Blue sash and
                      the guild badge in silver.
                       
                      Guildmaster of Fence: A teacher of period Rapier who has contributed significantly to the
                      advancement of Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and works on directing the course of the Guild.
                      A Guildmaster of Fence is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Black sash or
                      glove and the guild badge in gold.
                      >>>
                        For ease of reading the bylaws repeat those last sentences(the sashes and badges bit) verbatim at each rank.
                      >>>>>
                       
                         Charter changes have taken years to accomplish in the past and I don't expect them any faster these days which
                      is why the bylaws were put into place so we could more rapidly adjust to guild needs.  So I'll take that one off the table
                      right now.  Sorcha and the LGm's before her have honed a very clean and flexible document and only a very serious need is going to get a change to the Charter itself within the time frame of my still being LGm.
                       
                         Ultimately the only change I see is adding that bezel, which you are welcome to do on your own and while I don't see any pressing need to add it even to the bylaws I am open to you submitting a proposal to change the bylaws and I'll submit it to the officers and ultimately the guild for consensus.
                       
                         It's a good time to do that as you have an excellent point that our bylaws do not contain our now approved Guild badge blazon which occured after I took office through years of diligent effort of AGm Sorcha.  So I have to make changes anyway and if there is sufficient support of the bezel option being explicit I can accomodate the member's wishes with a minimum of iterations.
                       
                         With the Sashes at each rank making a new section just for badges splits the information, so it would be included at each level as it is now.
                       
                         One note on the phrasing below: "Granted the right" explicitly means that all higher ranks still maintain the right to wear lower rank indicators so :
                       
                      "(a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them). "
                       
                      is handled.
                       
                      Glad to see some activity in this list.  Please fellow guildies, feel free to voice your opinion on anything as this is really the clearest window I have to see the Guild member's wishes.
                       
                      Nytshaed, LGm West Kingdom Royal Guild of Fence


                      From: brigitgoddess1
                      To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 9:13:34 PM
                      Subject: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Re: Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

                       

                      I think that sounds good.

                      Brigit

                      --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." wrote:
                      >
                      > I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?
                      >
                      >
                      > The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                      > "is granted the right to be known by
                      > said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."
                      >
                      > Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;
                      >
                      > The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                      > Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                      > Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                      > Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).
                      >
                      > David Falcone
                      >

                    • Beth Berry (Sorcha Careman)
                      I agree here. Unless there are other changes that need to be made, and I haven t heard any other discussions or concerns, then the only update needed would be
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 5, 2011
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                        I agree here. 
                        Unless there are other changes that need to be made, and I haven't heard any other discussions or concerns, then the only update needed would be the description of the approved Badge.
                        The reason the Bylaws were made fairly general and the badge made fieldless, was so we could have the ability to use Lozenges, bezels, etc as our personalization of the badges.

                        Sorcha

                        On 4/5/2011 10:45 AM, jeffery@... wrote:
                         

                        I think it is splitting hairs.  But I don't see any reason for a change as written.  The badge is specified as fieldless, therefore it could be worn on anything - including a bezel of any shape you like.

                        Lessingham - GM



                        On Tue 04/05/11 05:07:00 PM , "Nytshaed\(Douglas Leonard\)" nytshaed1967@... sent:

                          Currently the charter reads:
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        Scholar: Any person who professes an interest in the Guild of Fence shall be admitted to the rank of
                        Scholar. There are no requirements beyond an interest in Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and the
                        study of period forms. A Scholar is granted the right to be known by said rank and may wear the
                        badge of the guild in a tincture, that being a color other than silver or gold.
                         
                        Free Scholar: A fighter, who is a member of the Guild, continues their studies in the art of rapier and
                        has successfully played the Free Scholar Prize. A Free Scholar is granted the right to be known by
                        said rank and to wear the badge of the guild in silver.
                         
                        Journeyman: An accomplished fighter, who has shown skill and dedication to Rapier in the West,
                        continues in their studies of period forms and has successfully played the Journeyman Prize. A
                        Journeyman is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a green sash and the guild
                        badge in silver.
                         
                        Provost: An accomplished fighter who shares their skill and knowledge through the medium of
                        teaching, continues in their personal studies of period schools and has successfully played the
                        Provost Prize. A Provost is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Blue sash and
                        the guild badge in silver.
                         
                        Guildmaster of Fence: A teacher of period Rapier who has contributed significantly to the
                        advancement of Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and works on directing the course of the Guild.
                        A Guildmaster of Fence is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Black sash or
                        glove and the guild badge in gold.
                        >>>
                          For ease of reading the bylaws repeat those last sentences(the sashes and badges bit) verbatim at each rank.
                        >>>>>
                         
                           Charter changes have taken years to accomplish in the past and I don't expect them any faster these days which
                        is why the bylaws were put into place so we could more rapidly adjust to guild needs.  So I'll take that one off the table
                        right now.  Sorcha and the LGm's before her have honed a very clean and flexible document and only a very serious need is going to get a change to the Charter itself within the time frame of my still being LGm.
                         
                           Ultimately the only change I see is adding that bezel, which you are welcome to do on your own and while I don't see any pressing need to add it even to the bylaws I am open to you submitting a proposal to change the bylaws and I'll submit it to the officers and ultimately the guild for consensus.
                         
                           It's a good time to do that as you have an excellent point that our bylaws do not contain our now approved Guild badge blazon which occured after I took office through years of diligent effort of AGm Sorcha.  So I have to make changes anyway and if there is sufficient support of the bezel option being explicit I can accomodate the member's wishes with a minimum of iterations.
                         
                           With the Sashes at each rank making a new section just for badges splits the information, so it would be included at each level as it is now.
                         
                           One note on the phrasing below: "Granted the right" explicitly means that all higher ranks still maintain the right to wear lower rank indicators so :
                         
                        "(a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them). "
                         
                        is handled.
                         
                        Glad to see some activity in this list.  Please fellow guildies, feel free to voice your opinion on anything as this is really the clearest window I have to see the Guild member's wishes.
                         
                        Nytshaed, LGm West Kingdom Royal Guild of Fence


                        From: brigitgoddess1
                        To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 9:13:34 PM
                        Subject: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Re: Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

                         

                        I think that sounds good.

                        Brigit

                        --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." wrote:
                        >
                        > I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?
                        >
                        >
                        > The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                        > "is granted the right to be known by
                        > said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."
                        >
                        > Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;
                        >
                        > The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                        > Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                        > Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                        > Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).
                        >
                        > David Falcone
                        >

                      • Edgar Branscum
                        Agreed, why needlessly muck up a nicely streamlined document.  Bezels are not needed as an explicit mention since the badge is field-less, in my opinion
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 5, 2011
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                          Agreed, why needlessly muck up a nicely streamlined document. 
                          Bezels are not needed as an explicit mention since the badge is field-less, in my opinion anyway, others my and very often do differ.

                          Don Alaryn- Provost.

                          --- On Tue, 4/5/11, jeffery@... <jeffery@...> wrote:

                          From: jeffery@... <jeffery@...>
                          Subject: Re: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Re: Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter
                          To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 10:45 AM

                           

                          I think it is splitting hairs.  But I don't see any reason for a change as written.  The badge is specified as fieldless, therefore it could be worn on anything - including a bezel of any shape you like.

                          Lessingham - GM



                          On Tue 04/05/11 05:07:00 PM , "Nytshaed\(Douglas Leonard\)" nytshaed1967@... sent:

                            Currently the charter reads:
                          >>>>>
                          https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0c8Yzu6u2ueZmU1OWZjNDUtNjNjNS00ZGIwLWI0ZTgtMDhkOTZjZTc4NTgx&hl=en&pli=1
                          >>>>>
                          Scholar: Any person who professes an interest in the Guild of Fence shall be admitted to the rank of
                          Scholar. There are no requirements beyond an interest in Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and the
                          study of period forms. A Scholar is granted the right to be known by said rank and may wear the
                          badge of the guild in a tincture, that being a color other than silver or gold.
                           
                          Free Scholar: A fighter, who is a member of the Guild, continues their studies in the art of rapier and
                          has successfully played the Free Scholar Prize. A Free Scholar is granted the right to be known by
                          said rank and to wear the badge of the guild in silver.
                           
                          Journeyman: An accomplished fighter, who has shown skill and dedication to Rapier in the West,
                          continues in their studies of period forms and has successfully played the Journeyman Prize. A
                          Journeyman is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a green sash and the guild
                          badge in silver.
                           
                          Provost: An accomplished fighter who shares their skill and knowledge through the medium of
                          teaching, continues in their personal studies of period schools and has successfully played the
                          Provost Prize. A Provost is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Blue sash and
                          the guild badge in silver.
                           
                          Guildmaster of Fence: A teacher of period Rapier who has contributed significantly to the
                          advancement of Rapier in the Kingdom of the West and works on directing the course of the Guild.
                          A Guildmaster of Fence is granted the right to be known by said rank and to wear a Black sash or
                          glove and the guild badge in gold.
                          >>>
                            For ease of reading the bylaws repeat those last sentences(the sashes and badges bit) verbatim at each rank.
                          >>>>>
                           
                             Charter changes have taken years to accomplish in the past and I don't expect them any faster these days which
                          is why the bylaws were put into place so we could more rapidly adjust to guild needs.  So I'll take that one off the table
                          right now.  Sorcha and the LGm's before her have honed a very clean and flexible document and only a very serious need is going to get a change to the Charter itself within the time frame of my still being LGm.
                           
                             Ultimately the only change I see is adding that bezel, which you are welcome to do on your own and while I don't see any pressing need to add it even to the bylaws I am open to you submitting a proposal to change the bylaws and I'll submit it to the officers and ultimately the guild for consensus.
                           
                             It's a good time to do that as you have an excellent point that our bylaws do not contain our now approved Guild badge blazon which occured after I took office through years of diligent effort of AGm Sorcha.  So I have to make changes anyway and if there is sufficient support of the bezel option being explicit I can accomodate the member's wishes with a minimum of iterations.
                           
                             With the Sashes at each rank making a new section just for badges splits the information, so it would be included at each level as it is now.
                           
                             One note on the phrasing below: "Granted the right" explicitly means that all higher ranks still maintain the right to wear lower rank indicators so :
                           
                          "(a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them). "
                           
                          is handled.
                           
                          Glad to see some activity in this list.  Please fellow guildies, feel free to voice your opinion on anything as this is really the clearest window I have to see the Guild member's wishes.
                           
                          Nytshaed, LGm West Kingdom Royal Guild of Fence


                          From: brigitgoddess1
                          To: RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 9:13:34 PM
                          Subject: [RoyalGuildofDefense] Re: Guild Badge/By-laws/Charter

                           

                          I think that sounds good.

                          Brigit

                          --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." wrote:
                          >
                          > I think the following wording would allow differing interpretations and still be sufficiently standardized. What do you think?
                          >
                          >
                          > The line in the Charter concerning the wearing of the badge in each rank be altered to
                          > "is granted the right to be known by
                          > said rank and to wear the badge of the guild as specified in the Guild by-laws."
                          >
                          > Then in the by-laws, under "Guild Badge" the following wording is used;
                          >
                          > The Guild Badge is blazoned as "Fieldless, an open book Or Surmounted by a rapier vert".
                          > Members with the rank of Scholar may wear a Guild badge as blazoned with or with out a bezel except that a bezel, if used, may not be silver or gold.
                          > Members of the ranks of Free Scholar, Journeyman, and Provost, may wear the Guild badge as blazoned except that a bezel, if used, may not be gold. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in silver only.
                          > Members of the rank of Guildmaster/Guildmistress may wear the Guild badge as blazoned and with or with out a bezel. They may alternately choose to wear a badge done in gold only (a silver badge is not recommended, but is not restricted from them).
                          >
                          > David Falcone
                          >

                        • pressurestat@rocketmail.com
                          ... It looks to me like if the current by-laws copy what s in the charter concerning the badge, and changing the charter is off the table, then changing the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 6, 2011
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                            > So I'll take that one off the table

                            It looks to me like if the current by-laws copy what's in the charter concerning the badge, and changing the charter is off the table, then changing the by-laws is of little moment. Obviously this is all above my pay grade. Guess I'll just have to put the badge molds in the bottom drawer till it gets sorted.

                            David Falcone
                          • brigitgoddess1
                            Welcome back, David.... snork! Brigit
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 8, 2011
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                              Welcome back, David....

                              snork!

                              Brigit

                              --- In RoyalGuildofDefense@yahoogroups.com, "pressurestat@..." <pressurestat@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > So I'll take that one off the table
                              >
                              > It looks to me like if the current by-laws copy what's in the charter concerning the badge, and changing the charter is off the table, then changing the by-laws is of little moment. Obviously this is all above my pay grade. Guess I'll just have to put the badge molds in the bottom drawer till it gets sorted.
                              >
                              > David Falcone
                              >
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