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Re: [Roman_History_Books] Digest Number 337

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  • ptobey@aol.com
    Well, I read both. Not being a Classic major (my university didn t have any classics, not any Latin), I have a lot of Roman history to catch up on to go with
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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      Well, I read both. Not being a Classic major (my university didn't have any
      classics, not any Latin), I have a lot of Roman history to catch up on to go
      with all the fiction I'm reading.

      I pulled ahead by reading The Flames of Rome which is Nero, so if that pops
      up on our reading list, I'll reread it. Now to find a copy of I, Claudius.
      Especially after watching the PBS series on Rome in the First Century. It was
      very lacking in details--history for the short-of-attention-span viewer. Nice
      art, architecture and sculpture used in the filming, but boy, did they leave
      out a lot.

      And I did just order a bunch of David Wishart and the new Rosemary Rowe from
      the UK.

      Pam T.
    • Lady Marian
      Hey All: Has anybody else seen the recent PBS airing of Rome In the First Century ? If so, what did you think? I d love to hear others opinions! :) So
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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        Hey All:
        Has anybody else seen the recent PBS airing of "Rome In the First Century"? If so, what did you think? I'd love to hear others' opinions! :)
        So far, I've only seen Part I, but I thought the producers/writers did a good job (and Sigourney Weaver was the narrarator). Does anybody have any book suggestions about this period on Roman history, both fiction and non-fiction?
        Thanks much,
        Denise
        Boris Raymond <braymond@...> wrote: Why not have for a change, a discussion on some aspect of "The Fall of
        Rome" circa A.D. 440 to 476?
        Boris Raymond [braymond@...]

        On 26 Jul 2001 Roman_History_Books@yahoogroups.com wrote:

        >
        > There are 2 messages in this issue.
        >
        > Topics in this digest:
        >
        > 1. Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
        > From: IrenesBooks@...
        > 2. Re: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
        > From: valentina casa <thelma_72@...>
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Message: 1
        > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:27:46 EDT
        > From: IrenesBooks@...
        > Subject: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
        >
        > Hi All!
        >
        > July chats were a dud, and I have decided to call a recess for August: I'll
        > be away myself for at least two weeks.
        >
        > We'll start again in September, hopefully with "I, Claudius" if everyone
        > agrees.
        >
        > Meanwhile, I've direct e-mailed our "regulars" already for input, and now
        > looking for yours too. Any suggestions/questions on the chats?
        >
        > You can put them either here or e-mail me directly at IrenesBooks@....
        >
        > Looking forward to hearing from you,
        >
        > Irene
        > http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
        > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
        > http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start
        > Forum Book Discussions
        > http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
        >
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        > ________________________________________________________________________
        >
        > Message: 2
        > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:47:24 +0200 (CEST)
        > From: valentina casa <thelma_72@...>
        > Subject: Re: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
        >
        > Have a good holidays.
        > Valentina Casa
        > --- IrenesBooks@... ha scritto:
        > <HR>
        > <html><body>
        > <tt>
        > Hi All!<BR>
        > <BR>
        > July chats were a dud, and I have decided to call a
        > recess for August: I'll <BR>
        > be away myself for at least two weeks.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > We'll start again in September, hopefully with
        > "I, Claudius" if everyone <BR>
        > agrees.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Meanwhile, I've direct e-mailed our
        > "regulars" already for input, and now <BR>
        > looking for yours too.  Any suggestions/questions
        > on the chats?<BR>
        > <BR>
        > You can put them either here or e-mail me directly at
        > IrenesBooks@....<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Looking forward to hearing from you,<BR>
        > <BR>
        > Irene<BR>
        > <a
        > href="http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/">http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/</a><BR>
        > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum<BR>
        > <a
        > href="http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start">http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start</a><BR>
        > Forum Book Discussions<BR>
        > <a
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      • IrenesBooks@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/26/01 4:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... For a poll and earlier opinions go here:
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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          In a message dated 7/26/01 4:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
          marianofsherwood95@... writes:

          > Has anybody else seen the recent PBS airing of "Rome In the First Century"?

          > If so, what did you think? I'd love to hear others' opinions! :)

          For a poll and earlier opinions go here:
          http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/messages?msg=2161.1

          As you see, I (aka RomaHOST) was greatly outvoted <grin>

          I saw Part Two last night, and didn't like it either. You wouldn't know from
          the show that there was a "Year of the Four Emperors", nor that Titus Flavius
          existed.

          And to all: Please give your opinion here on Yahoo too....

          For books, here is my reading list:
          http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/booklist1a.htm

          Irene
          http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
          Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
          http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/start
          Forum Book Discussions
          http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
        • Jay Latona
          Hi All, I hurried home last night to catch the show on PBS. I didn t know it would be 2 hours. The video portions of the show did not support the audio very
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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            Hi All,

            I hurried home last night to catch the show on PBS.
            I didn't know it would be 2 hours.
            The video portions of the show did not support the audio very well.
            They did an interesting seque from Claudius to Nero to Vespasian.
            And they did try to put things into historical perspective, such as
            Nero's wanting to distract the public from his reign of terror by
            persecuting the Christians.
            And Saul's life was blended in very well into what else Rome was doing
            at the time.
            And I was amused by one of the historians saying that "ROme's dirty little
            secret" was that generals with the requisite might can be candidates
            for the next emperor position opening up. Now that's a big secret, except
            Marius, Sulla, and Caesar all did it in the last century.

            So all in all, they did a good job giving you a flavor of life in the
            first century under Roman rule..
            It was very ambitious and I feel that the tapes for
            $30 is a good buy for someone wanting to get a sense of what was
            going on in the known world after Augustus took over in 31 B.C.

            I really feel that all ancient history lovers should be thankful that
            "Gladiator" made such a big splash in Western society. That movie will spawn
            a lot of Roman history movie-making.

            I was so motivated after seeing "Gladiator" that I joined the book chat
            on Augustus and then got this great idea to go to Rome and investigate
            the ruins there once again (after 11 years).
            So I went to Rome; took tours of the Forum ruins; and even found the
            place where old Julius was assassinated (in Pompei's curio).
            And I have the photos and videos to prove it.

            So there's my take on the impact of "Roman Empire in the First Century".
            That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

            Jay

            --- IrenesBooks@... wrote:
            > In a message dated 7/26/01 4:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
            > marianofsherwood95@... writes:
            >
            > > Has anybody else seen the recent PBS airing of "Rome In the First Century"?
            >
            >
            > > If so, what did you think? I'd love to hear others' opinions! :)
            >
            > For a poll and earlier opinions go here:
            > http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/messages?msg=2161.1
            >
            > As you see, I (aka RomaHOST) was greatly outvoted <grin>
            >
            > I saw Part Two last night, and didn't like it either. You wouldn't know from
            > the show that there was a "Year of the Four Emperors", nor that Titus Flavius
            >
            > existed.
            >
            > And to all: Please give your opinion here on Yahoo too....
            >
            > For books, here is my reading list:
            > http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/booklist1a.htm
            >
            > Irene
            > http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
            > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
            > http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/start
            > Forum Book Discussions
            > http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
            >


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          • Judy Geary
            I m always glad to see history popularized even if it s superficial. For Rome in the first century, Lindsey Davis is a fun read. (I note, but tolerate minor
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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              I'm always glad to see history "popularized" even if it's superficial. For Rome in the first century, Lindsey Davis is a fun read. (I note, but tolerate minor anachronisms.)

              JG

              Lady Marian wrote:

              > Hey All:
              > Has anybody else seen the recent PBS airing of "Rome In the First Century"? If so, what did you think? I'd love to hear others' opinions! :)
              > So far, I've only seen Part I, but I thought the producers/writers did a good job (and Sigourney Weaver was the narrarator). Does anybody have any book suggestions about this period on Roman history, both fiction and non-fiction?
              > Thanks much,
              > Denise
              > Boris Raymond <braymond@...> wrote: Why not have for a change, a discussion on some aspect of "The Fall of
              > Rome" circa A.D. 440 to 476?
              > Boris Raymond [braymond@...]
              >
              > On 26 Jul 2001 Roman_History_Books@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > There are 2 messages in this issue.
              > >
              > > Topics in this digest:
              > >
              > > 1. Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
              > > From: IrenesBooks@...
              > > 2. Re: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
              > > From: valentina casa <thelma_72@...>
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________________________________________________
              > > ________________________________________________________________________
              > >
              > > Message: 1
              > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:27:46 EDT
              > > From: IrenesBooks@...
              > > Subject: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
              > >
              > > Hi All!
              > >
              > > July chats were a dud, and I have decided to call a recess for August: I'll
              > > be away myself for at least two weeks.
              > >
              > > We'll start again in September, hopefully with "I, Claudius" if everyone
              > > agrees.
              > >
              > > Meanwhile, I've direct e-mailed our "regulars" already for input, and now
              > > looking for yours too. Any suggestions/questions on the chats?
              > >
              > > You can put them either here or e-mail me directly at IrenesBooks@....
              > >
              > > Looking forward to hearing from you,
              > >
              > > Irene
              > > http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
              > > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
              > > http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start
              > > Forum Book Discussions
              > > http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________________________________________________
              > > ________________________________________________________________________
              > >
              > > Message: 2
              > > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:47:24 +0200 (CEST)
              > > From: valentina casa <thelma_72@...>
              > > Subject: Re: Book Chats - August Recess / Suggestions
              > >
              > > Have a good holidays.
              > > Valentina Casa
              > > --- IrenesBooks@... ha scritto:
              > > <HR>
              > > <html><body>
              > > <tt>
              > > Hi All!<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > July chats were a dud, and I have decided to call a
              > > recess for August: I'll <BR>
              > > be away myself for at least two weeks.<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > We'll start again in September, hopefully with
              > > "I, Claudius" if everyone <BR>
              > > agrees.<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Meanwhile, I've direct e-mailed our
              > > "regulars" already for input, and now <BR>
              > > looking for yours too.  Any suggestions/questions
              > > on the chats?<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > You can put them either here or e-mail me directly at
              > > IrenesBooks@....<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Looking forward to hearing from you,<BR>
              > > <BR>
              > > Irene<BR>
              > > <a
              > > href="http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/">http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/</a><BR>
              > > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum<BR>
              > > <a
              > > href="http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start">http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist/start</a><BR>
              > > Forum Book Discussions<BR>
              > > <a
              > > href="http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist2/start">http://www.delphi.com/ab-ancienthist2/start</a><BR>
              > > </tt>
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            • IrenesBooks@aol.com
              Here is the PBS website: http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/index.html Irene http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/ Co-host, Ancient/Classical
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 26, 2001
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              • Lady Marian
                Thanks, Irene, for the PBS link! Did you watch Part I & II of Rome in the First Century ? If so, what did you think? Denise
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                  Thanks, Irene, for the PBS link! Did you watch Part I
                  & II of "Rome in the First Century"? If so, what did
                  you think?

                  Denise



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                • Lady Marian
                  Hi Judy: So you thought Rome in the First Century was superficial? If so, why? Just curious ....! :) Fair Winds & Blessings, Denise ===== Blessings & Fair
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                    Hi Judy:

                    So you thought "Rome in the First Century" was
                    superficial? If so, why? Just curious ....! :)

                    Fair Winds & Blessings,

                    Denise



                    =====

                    Blessings & Fair Winds,

                    Denise


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                  • Lady Marian
                    Thanks, Jay, for sharing your opinion on Rome in the First Century! Neat observations! So -- would you care to perhaps share your photos of your recent
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                      Thanks, Jay, for sharing your opinion on "Rome in the
                      First Century!" Neat observations! So -- would you
                      care to perhaps share your photos of your recent trip
                      to Rome with us listmates?

                      I've seen "Gladiator" (so far) six times, and have
                      loved it each time. And have gleaned new
                      info/insights from each viewing, too. Even wrote and
                      published a short essay on the film's impact on my
                      life. And you're right -- this movie will, no doubt,
                      spawn other Roman-era type films that once were so
                      popular in the 1950's and 1960's. Only question is:
                      will these newer films be as high of quality as
                      "Gladiator"? One can fervently hope so! (And I do
                      hope none will be parodies of toga parties!)

                      Denise


                      =====

                      Blessings & Fair Winds,

                      Denise


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                    • Jay Latona
                      Hi Denise. I am just now organizing my photos and notes for a website. I wanted to accomplish a few things during my impromptu European jaunt: 1. find out
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                        Hi Denise.
                        I am just now organizing my photos and notes for a website.
                        I wanted to accomplish a few things during my impromptu European
                        jaunt:
                        1. find out about cheap fares to Europe
                        2. go through the Forum ruins in Rome again.
                        3. explore Sicily and visit Greek/Roman ruins there
                        4. and look into my roots on Sicily (somewhere above Agrigento)

                        I will let you know the URL once I establish the site.
                        Thanks for your interest.

                        Regarding "Gladiator":
                        1. The acting, costumes, battle scenes, special effects were all
                        terrific.
                        2. the sense of place and time in Rome was excellent and a credit to
                        Ridley Scott the director.
                        3. the contrived story involving the Emperor Commodus was tedious
                        and not true to history.

                        Here's hoping there are producers who have the courage to gather up
                        more hundreds of millions of dollars to create more "swords and sandals"
                        epics for our viewing pleasure.

                        Jay

                        --- Lady Marian <marianofsherwood95@...> wrote:
                        > Thanks, Jay, for sharing your opinion on "Rome in the
                        > First Century!" Neat observations! So -- would you
                        > care to perhaps share your photos of your recent trip
                        > to Rome with us listmates?
                        >
                        > I've seen "Gladiator" (so far) six times, and have
                        > loved it each time. And have gleaned new
                        > info/insights from each viewing, too. Even wrote and
                        > published a short essay on the film's impact on my
                        > life. And you're right -- this movie will, no doubt,
                        > spawn other Roman-era type films that once were so
                        > popular in the 1950's and 1960's. Only question is:
                        > will these newer films be as high of quality as
                        > "Gladiator"? One can fervently hope so! (And I do
                        > hope none will be parodies of toga parties!)
                        >
                        > Denise
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        >
                        > Blessings & Fair Winds,
                        >
                        > Denise
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                        > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                        >


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                      • IrenesBooks@aol.com
                        In a message dated 7/27/01 3:08:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Not much! Rather uncritical use of available sources. Too many images, repeat images,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                          In a message dated 7/27/01 3:08:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          marianofsherwood95@... writes:

                          > If so, what did
                          > you think?

                          Not much! Rather uncritical use of available sources. Too many images,
                          repeat images, background sound.

                          Irene
                          http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
                          Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
                          http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/start
                          Forum Book Discussions
                          http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
                        • Todd Sigler
                          Hi Irene (and group)- I enjoyed the special for what it was, which was a cliff notes version of history. But you are right, the repeated images (the one of a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                            Hi Irene (and group)-
                            I enjoyed the special for what it was, which was a
                            cliff notes version of history. But you are right,
                            the repeated images (the one of a window's image on a
                            wall, presumably in the Senate seemed to be repeated
                            every 5 minutes or so) were annoying and distracting.

                            Todd
                            --- IrenesBooks@... wrote:
                            > In a message dated 7/27/01 3:08:24 PM Eastern
                            > Daylight Time,
                            > marianofsherwood95@... writes:
                            >
                            > > If so, what did
                            > > you think?
                            >
                            > Not much! Rather uncritical use of available
                            > sources. Too many images,
                            > repeat images, background sound.
                            >
                            > Irene
                            > http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/
                            > Co-host, Ancient/Classical History Forum
                            > http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist/start
                            > Forum Book Discussions
                            > http://forums.about.com/ab-ancienthist2/start
                            >


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                          • IrenesBooks@aol.com
                            There were a lot of image repeats which I think were for budgetary reasons, such as the same houses/buildings/reenactment figures shown all over again. I have
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                              There were a lot of image repeats which I think were for budgetary reasons,
                              such as the same houses/buildings/reenactment figures shown all over again. I
                              have no quarrel with that, I objected to the _number_ of images. It was
                              really more the repeat waves, the water and the flames that seemed so
                              unnecessary.

                              The only image repeat that I thought was really weird was the collapsing
                              toga: It was used for both the assassination of Caesar and the discovery of
                              Claudius behind the curtain... very unimaginative, IMO.

                              The relentless background music is personal gripe of mine for all
                              documentaries in recent years: I'm wearing a hearing aid (not deaf enough for
                              CC though) and spoken word with music in the background is rather hard to
                              follow. They even used it with the talking heads. I think documentary
                              producers really have boxed themselves in with that technique. I propose an
                              Emmy for the first one who manages to get out of that box <grin>

                              Irene
                            • David Wend
                              I have not yet viewed much of Rome In The First Century but it cannot help being superficial. I saw a portion where Pliny the Younger was being discussed
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                                I have not yet viewed much of "Rome In The First Century" but it cannot help
                                being superficial. I saw a portion where Pliny the Younger was being discussed
                                with his role of serving the tyrant Domitian and living to hate it. I find
                                Pliny an interesting person but he certainly did enjoy advancement under
                                Domitian even though he knew several members of the "Stoic Opposition."
                                Domitian could have refused Pliny advancement on this basis. In fact, he
                                allowed honors to several people with connections to this group. It is not
                                often mentioned that Domitian was somewhat conciliatory to the opposition.

                                So, I find programs like this one interesting but no substitute for reading.

                                Judy Geary wrote:

                                > Hi Denise,
                                >
                                > Actually I was responding to another's comment. My feeling is that 4 fours
                                > to cover essentially 150 years (Part one started with Augustus), must be
                                > superficial.
                                >
                                > Gotta go. Watching a special on gladiators.
                                >
                                > Judy
                                >
                                > Lady Marian wrote:
                                >
                                > > Hi Judy:
                                > >
                                > > So you thought "Rome in the First Century" was
                                > > superficial? If so, why? Just curious ....! :)
                                > >
                                > > Fair Winds & Blessings,
                                > >
                                > > Denise
                                > >
                                > > =====
                                > >
                                > > Blessings & Fair Winds,
                                > >
                                > > Denise
                                > >
                                > > __________________________________________________
                                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Judy Geary
                                Hi Denise, Actually I was responding to another s comment. My feeling is that 4 fours to cover essentially 150 years (Part one started with Augustus), must be
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                                  Hi Denise,

                                  Actually I was responding to another's comment. My feeling is that 4 fours
                                  to cover essentially 150 years (Part one started with Augustus), must be
                                  superficial.

                                  Gotta go. Watching a special on gladiators.

                                  Judy

                                  Lady Marian wrote:

                                  > Hi Judy:
                                  >
                                  > So you thought "Rome in the First Century" was
                                  > superficial? If so, why? Just curious ....! :)
                                  >
                                  > Fair Winds & Blessings,
                                  >
                                  > Denise
                                  >
                                  > =====
                                  >
                                  > Blessings & Fair Winds,
                                  >
                                  > Denise
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                  > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • IrenesBooks@aol.com
                                  Pliny seems to have had a rather uninterrupted career. Here is a timeline: http://www.umich.edu/~classics/latin/231/231pliny.html Irene Irene
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 27, 2001
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                                    Pliny seems to have had a rather uninterrupted career. Here is a timeline:

                                    http://www.umich.edu/~classics/latin/231/231pliny.html

                                    Irene

                                    Irene
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                                  • Lady Marian
                                    Hi All: Thanks for answering my questions about Rome in the First Century on PBS (I ll be watching Part II this evening; I had it taped earlier in the week).
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 28, 2001
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                                      Hi All:
                                      Thanks for answering my questions about "Rome in the First Century" on PBS (I'll be watching Part II this evening; I had it taped earlier in the week). Do any of you folks on this list have good book suggestions on the life of Pliny The Elder/Pliny the Younger/Domition/Vespasian!
                                      Thanks!




                                      Blessings & Fair Winds,

                                      Denise



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                                    • Jimmyjb
                                      ... I don t know about the others but imho Barbara Levick s _Vespasian_ was published by Routledge (in the UK) about three years ago and is still in print. It
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 28, 2001
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                                        Lady Marian wrote:

                                        > ... Do any of you folks on this list have good book suggestions on the life of Pliny The Elder/Pliny the Younger/Domition/Vespasian! Thanks!

                                        I don't know about the others but imho Barbara Levick's _Vespasian_ was published by Routledge (in the UK) about three years ago and is still in print. It is probably the only book on Vespasian in print, but very worth while as are all of Dr. Levick's biographies of the early
                                        emperors. I believe she has an older work on Claudius, also quite good. Bernard Henderson's treatment of Vespasian in his Five Roman Emperors (based heavily on Plutarch) is also pretty informative, but is long out of print (1927 with a 1970 reprint) and is made obsolete by Levick's
                                        research.
                                        ----------
                                        BTW, I promised Irene a tidbit on Cleopatra and Herod -- possibly of interest to the current book discussion, or the one that has been postponed. Just a bit of irony. Here goes.

                                        Julius Caesar and Antony's Cleopatra tried to persuade Marcus to free up some of the lands of Rome's Judaean client Herod the Great to add to her Greater Eastern Empire (or whatever that co-dominion was to be known) but Antony stood by his backer to the north, even though Herod's
                                        loyalties had proven fickle, switching allegiances according to the way the power struggle was going...he later switched over to Octavian. Julius had to "disengage" from Cleopatra much as Antony also threw her over.

                                        Herod's granddaughter, Queen Berenice (who allegedly had an incestuous relationship with her brother Herod Agrippa II) acted as a Judaean Cleopatra: she was a scheming "eastern princess" who had snared a Roman ruler...in this case Titus. The Senate and People forced Titus to renounce
                                        his conniving mistress, much as his predecessors had to drop Cleopatra under popular pressure.

                                        I always like to find these parallels in ancient history. Who knows, perhaps Berenice was emulating
                                        the Egyptian princess in her way. Berenice was allowed to remain in Rome, where she wielded some influence through her brother Agrippa II. The latter had sided with Rome in the Great Judaean Revolt and was in some favor with the Flavian house. Titus' short life did not permit us to
                                        know whether he might have resumed his attachment to Berenice. It says much for Berenice's charms that she was in her forties (and Titus in his twenties) when she was his mistress.

                                        Jim Bloom
                                      • IrenesBooks@aol.com
                                        [Thank you, Jim, for Herod] Yes, Barbara Levick s Vespasian (and her Claudius ) is excellent, as is Pat Southern s Domitian, Tragic Tyrant . Since each
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 28, 2001
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                                          [Thank you, Jim, for Herod]

                                          Yes, Barbara Levick's "Vespasian" (and her "Claudius") is excellent, as is
                                          Pat Southern's "Domitian, Tragic Tyrant".

                                          Since each book heavily relies on annalistic data and other ancient records,
                                          one can find information on the Plinys too in there.

                                          Then there is Julian Bennett's "Trajan, Optimus Princeps", which also deals
                                          with Pliny the Younger.

                                          You find all these on my reading list:
                                          http://romanhistorybooksandmore.freeservers.com/booklist1a.htm

                                          Irene
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