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  • Jim <jamescolex@attbi.com>
    Hello all I am new, but I thought I would weigh in on the Idea of the Byzantines defeating the Mongols. I think we would not have seen such an easy defeat.
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 19, 2002
      Hello all I am new, but I thought I would weigh in on the Idea of the
      Byzantines defeating the Mongols. I think we would not have seen
      such an easy defeat. Would the Empire have stood a better chance at
      beating back an invasion...sure. A Strong Byzantium could draw on
      all of its holdings to field an Army used to fighting the Steppe
      nomads. However the Mongols were not a one sided army. Sure the
      bulk of their power was Horse arches, but they also had the ability
      to lay siege (learned from their conquest of China)to cities. They
      also would have had large numbers of subject troops to fight for them.

      More then likely they would have done exactly what they did with the
      Huns bribed where possible. The Byzantines were never adverse to
      bribing others to do their fighting for them. And if they could
      deflect the Mongols into Western Europe, then they would gladly do so
      rather then fight them. Thus allowing one enemy to devestate the
      other.

      Especially if the past sevral centuries had been filled with
      religious Crusades by both the East and the West. Then the dream of a
      new unified Europe under Byzantium might be more possible.

      However the Sea faring nations of Spain, Venice, Portugal, England ,
      France might have a little to say about a unified Europe.




      --- In RomanByzantineAltHist@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan MacDonald"
      <macdonald33@h...> wrote:
      > Wow, I didn't think that I'd get so many responses so quickly. This
      > discussion has given me a great deal to think about what role a
      > stronger Byzantium could have played in Europe. Here's another
      > scenario, what if Islam had never existed and swept through much of
      > the Byzantine Empire in the 600's? Perhaps the Byzantines and
      > Persians would have at some point fought each other again in yet
      > another long and bloody conflict. Meanwhile, certain tribes and
      > nation states try to pick at the western holdings of Byzantium in
      > Italy and other places, what do you guys think?
    • Richard Roper
      The byzantines also made great use of horse archers and heavy cavalry. The Mongols armies were in fact quite small, just exceedingly well disciplined. The
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 19, 2002
        The byzantines also made great use of horse archers
        and heavy cavalry.

        The Mongols armies were in fact quite small, just
        exceedingly well disciplined.

        The byzantines did in fact have the best chance of the
        European peoples of defeating the Mongols.
        Eventually the mongols were to be defeated by the
        Maemelukes of Egypt.

        I think the famous triple-wall of Byzantium would have
        bettered even the Mongols, and the city could have
        continued to be supplied by sea.

        Europe did in fact have a very lucky escape as
        wherever they went they created utter devestation.

        But byzantium was also a formidible naval power in its
        day, with warships projecting Greek Fire. it was the
        neglect of the navy that allowed the rise of Venice,
        and if they had continued to command the sea, there
        would have been no rise of the "Atlantic" states.


        --- "Jim <jamescolex@...>"
        <jamescolex@...> wrote:
        > Hello all I am new, but I thought I would weigh in
        > on the Idea of the
        > Byzantines defeating the Mongols. I think we would
        > not have seen
        > such an easy defeat. Would the Empire have stood a
        > better chance at
        > beating back an invasion...sure. A Strong Byzantium
        > could draw on
        > all of its holdings to field an Army used to
        > fighting the Steppe
        > nomads. However the Mongols were not a one sided
        > army. Sure the
        > bulk of their power was Horse arches, but they also
        > had the ability
        > to lay siege (learned from their conquest of
        > China)to cities. They
        > also would have had large numbers of subject troops
        > to fight for them.
        >
        > More then likely they would have done exactly what
        > they did with the
        > Huns bribed where possible. The Byzantines were
        > never adverse to
        > bribing others to do their fighting for them. And
        > if they could
        > deflect the Mongols into Western Europe, then they
        > would gladly do so
        > rather then fight them. Thus allowing one enemy to
        > devestate the
        > other.
        >
        > Especially if the past sevral centuries had been
        > filled with
        > religious Crusades by both the East and the West.
        > Then the dream of a
        > new unified Europe under Byzantium might be more
        > possible.
        >
        > However the Sea faring nations of Spain, Venice,
        > Portugal, England ,
        > France might have a little to say about a unified
        > Europe.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In RomanByzantineAltHist@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan
        > MacDonald"
        > <macdonald33@h...> wrote:
        > > Wow, I didn't think that I'd get so many responses
        > so quickly. This
        > > discussion has given me a great deal to think
        > about what role a
        > > stronger Byzantium could have played in Europe.
        > Here's another
        > > scenario, what if Islam had never existed and
        > swept through much of
        > > the Byzantine Empire in the 600's? Perhaps the
        > Byzantines and
        > > Persians would have at some point fought each
        > other again in yet
        > > another long and bloody conflict. Meanwhile,
        > certain tribes and
        > > nation states try to pick at the western holdings
        > of Byzantium in
        > > Italy and other places, what do you guys think?
        >
        >


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      • Sebastian Brier
        Hello Jim: You ve made an excellent point. If the Byzantines had an excellent army with an Empire roughly the size of Basil II s at the time of the Mongol
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 19, 2002

          Hello Jim:

          You've made an excellent point. 

          If the Byzantines had an excellent army with an Empire roughly the size of Basil II's at the time of the Mongol invasions, their probably wouldn't have been a slaughter either way; both would have had top of the line armies and neither would have been able to anhialate the other.  Plus, does anybody think that even the Mongols could have taken a Constantinople fully staffed by the Varangian Guard?

          Most likely there would have been some kind of skirmishing between the both of them, but for the most part the Byzantines would have simply paid the Mongols to attack Western Europe instead.  For some reason I think the Mongols were naturally inclined to like the Byzantines in our timeline, and they would probably still be in this new timeline.

          Wouldn't that be a cool scenario!  A Central European Khanate, centered in Hungary, that covers much of Germany, parts of Italy, Poland, etc.  Mongol armies reach the Pyrhennes Mts. before turning back.

          This is why I like alt-history!

          Sebastian Brier

           "Jim <jamescolex@...>" <jamescolex@...> wrote:

          Hello all I am new, but I thought I would weigh in on the Idea of the
          Byzantines defeating the Mongols.  I think we would not have seen
          such an easy defeat.  Would the Empire have stood a better chance at
          beating back an invasion...sure.  A Strong Byzantium  could draw on
          all of its holdings to field an Army used to fighting the Steppe
          nomads.  However the Mongols were not a one sided army.  Sure the
          bulk of their power was Horse arches, but they also had the ability
          to lay siege (learned from their conquest of China)to cities.  They
          also would have had large numbers of subject troops to fight for them.

          More then likely they would have done exactly what they did with the
          Huns bribed where possible.  The Byzantines were never adverse to
          bribing others to do their fighting for them.  And if they could
          deflect the Mongols into Western Europe, then they would gladly do so
          rather then fight them.  Thus allowing one enemy to devestate the
          other.

          Especially if the past sevral centuries had been filled with
          religious Crusades by both the East and the West. Then the dream of a
          new unified Europe under Byzantium might be more possible. 

          However the Sea faring nations of Spain, Venice, Portugal, England ,
          France might have a little to say about a unified Europe.




          --- In RomanByzantineAltHist@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan MacDonald"
          <macdonald33@h...> wrote:
          > Wow, I didn't think that I'd get so many responses so quickly. This
          > discussion has given me a great deal to think about what role a
          > stronger Byzantium could have played in Europe. Here's another
          > scenario, what if Islam had never existed and swept through much of
          > the Byzantine Empire in the 600's? Perhaps the Byzantines and
          > Persians would have at some point fought each other again in yet
          > another long and bloody conflict. Meanwhile, certain tribes and
          > nation states try to pick at the western holdings of Byzantium in
          > Italy and other places, what do you guys think?


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