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Re: RomanByzantineAltHist Modern Punic

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  • Adam Walker
    ... Thanks. Language invention is my primary hobby. Alternate history and world building are secondary ones. I wonder, though: even if ... I m sure there must
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 1 5:57 AM
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      --- st_prez <st_prez@...> wrote:
      > Damn! You really got me there. I was assuming au
      > fond that this was some language on this time line.
      > (Which is a real
      > compliment: a fake language that is consistent
      > enough to look real.)

      Thanks. Language invention is my primary hobby.
      Alternate history and world building are secondary
      ones.

      I wonder, though: even if
      > Punic was Semitic and survived that
      > long, wouldn't it have been more like a
      > Phoenician/Berber creole by the time of the
      > conquest?

      I'm sure there must have been some Berber influences
      by the time Rome took over. There would probably have
      been some Greek influence what with Syracuse just next
      door, too. We don't really know too much because so
      little is preserved. We do know it had drifted enough
      (judging by the Punic words borrowed into Latin, those
      in scribed on tombs, etc., quoted in Augustine, and so
      forth) that it wasn't fully mutually intelligible with
      Phonecian by the time it died out. And the dialects
      of Phoenician settlers in Sicily, Spain and Marsilles
      had apparently all drifted substantially too.

      What would the script have looked like:
      > a cross between the Phoenician letters and those
      > squarish Tuareg things? Assuming for the moment
      > that the contemporary Latin
      > script would have been partially derived from your
      > basic early medieval Uncial, what would it have
      > looked like? And how would that
      > have affected the spelling?
      >

      Well, Punic was written in a variant of the Phoenician
      alphabet. I'm still looking for the Latin styles used
      in Sicily under the Norman dynasty. They are
      mentioned in several books I've read as beinig
      different from those on the mainland. Since I'm
      having Carthage ruled from Sicily and then moving the
      dynasty there after the Hohenstaufens take Sicily, I'm
      sure the Sicilian styles will be a strong influence.
      The other written languages in the area would be
      Greek, Arabic and Coptic.

      > At this point, I'm trying to suss out how organized
      > crime would have worked out in the Greek emigration
      > in North America (in the post
      > Dushan world that produces the 1918 revolution),
      > both before and after the revolution. Once the
      > Christian Revolutionary Party took
      > over the capital and expelled the last of the
      > neo-pagan emperors, what happens before Hitler sends
      > the tanks south?

      this sounds like an interesting timeline. I read your
      post earlier when you were trying to find resources on
      how the police force opperated in Byzantium. I
      haven't seen anything, but if I do I'll be sure to let
      you know.

      Adam

      >
      > "Then a Byzantine shell knocked me arse over head,
      > "And when I awoke in my hospital bed
      > "I saw what they had done, and I wished I was dead.
      > "(Never knew there were worse things than dying."


      =====
      Indjindrud edjuebu ul Regu Davidu djal jan fin fuid djul Urias ad ul Salomunu. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Salomunu ad ul Robuamu. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Robuamu ad ul Abias. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Abias ad ul Asaf. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Asaf ad ul Jozafadu. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Jozafadu ad ul Joram. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Joram ad ul Ozias.

      Machu 1:6-8
    • st_prez
      For the script: at least in this time line, you d have to start with Beneventan as a model. Like most early medieval scripts (except those written by the
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 1 9:52 PM
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        For the script: at least in this time line, you'd have to start with Beneventan as a model. Like most early medieval scripts (except
        those written by the dyslexic Franks), it's more or less readable without special training: few abbreviations and those pretty easy to
        figure. It's a clear and fairly consistent minuscule, easy enough to read once you get used to it. In a more Byzantine world, it would
        probably have a bit more Greek influence. In your world, it might use dots for vowels, or dispense with them altogether (by analogy
        with early Hebrew, Punic & cet.). Fun for palaeographers or for people trying to figure out the purport of official documents.

        If you're interested in Beneventan script, I think the cat to read would be E.A. Loew (a.k.a., Elias A. Lowe). There's an updated
        version of his original stuff, reverently edited by Virginia Brown.

        As far as the emigre Byzantine crime thing would have gone, I think the generation or two before the revolution would have been
        limited to the Lower East Side and places like that: Kyr' Yerassimos and his family running a few businesses and taking care of
        favours. After 1918, it gets more like the emigre situation in Miami. Probably there are a lot of old Young Hellene exiles trying to
        recruit the U.S. government for support against the new regime, with J. Edgar and Attorney General Palmer trying in turn to use them
        against domestic and foregn dissent.



        --- In RomanByzantineAltHist@yahoogroups.com, Adam Walker <carrajena@y...> wrote:
        >
        > --- st_prez <st_prez@y...> wrote:
        > > Damn! You really got me there. I was assuming au
        > > fond that this was some language on this time line.
        > > (Which is a real
        > > compliment: a fake language that is consistent
        > > enough to look real.)
        >
        > Thanks. Language invention is my primary hobby.
        > Alternate history and world building are secondary
        > ones.
        >
        > I wonder, though: even if
        > > Punic was Semitic and survived that
        > > long, wouldn't it have been more like a
        > > Phoenician/Berber creole by the time of the
        > > conquest?
        >
        > I'm sure there must have been some Berber influences
        > by the time Rome took over. There would probably have
        > been some Greek influence what with Syracuse just next
        > door, too. We don't really know too much because so
        > little is preserved. We do know it had drifted enough
        > (judging by the Punic words borrowed into Latin, those
        > in scribed on tombs, etc., quoted in Augustine, and so
        > forth) that it wasn't fully mutually intelligible with
        > Phonecian by the time it died out. And the dialects
        > of Phoenician settlers in Sicily, Spain and Marsilles
        > had apparently all drifted substantially too.
        >
        > What would the script have looked like:
        > > a cross between the Phoenician letters and those
        > > squarish Tuareg things? Assuming for the moment
        > > that the contemporary Latin
        > > script would have been partially derived from your
        > > basic early medieval Uncial, what would it have
        > > looked like? And how would that
        > > have affected the spelling?
        > >
        >
        > Well, Punic was written in a variant of the Phoenician
        > alphabet. I'm still looking for the Latin styles used
        > in Sicily under the Norman dynasty. They are
        > mentioned in several books I've read as beinig
        > different from those on the mainland. Since I'm
        > having Carthage ruled from Sicily and then moving the
        > dynasty there after the Hohenstaufens take Sicily, I'm
        > sure the Sicilian styles will be a strong influence.
        > The other written languages in the area would be
        > Greek, Arabic and Coptic.
        >
        > > At this point, I'm trying to suss out how organized
        > > crime would have worked out in the Greek emigration
        > > in North America (in the post
        > > Dushan world that produces the 1918 revolution),
        > > both before and after the revolution. Once the
        > > Christian Revolutionary Party took
        > > over the capital and expelled the last of the
        > > neo-pagan emperors, what happens before Hitler sends
        > > the tanks south?
        >
        > this sounds like an interesting timeline. I read your
        > post earlier when you were trying to find resources on
        > how the police force opperated in Byzantium. I
        > haven't seen anything, but if I do I'll be sure to let
        > you know.
        >
        > Adam
        >
        > >
        > > "Then a Byzantine shell knocked me arse over head,
        > > "And when I awoke in my hospital bed
        > > "I saw what they had done, and I wished I was dead.
        > > "(Never knew there were worse things than dying."
        >
        >
        > =====
        > Indjindrud edjuebu ul Regu Davidu djal jan fin fuid djul Urias ad ul Salomunu. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Salomunu ad ul Robuamu.
        Indjindrud edjuebu ul Robuamu ad ul Abias. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Abias ad ul Asaf. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Asaf ad ul Jozafadu.
        Indjindrud edjuebu ul Jozafadu ad ul Joram. Indjindrud edjuebu ul Joram ad ul Ozias.
        >
        > Machu 1:6-8
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