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Re: [RollerDerbyIsSport] A derby boycot

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  • Rob Hudson
    Wow - Just saw this note. Would be very interested in: 1. The article, 2. The USARS rule quote - I ve been frustrated by the fact that shuffling is considered
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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      Wow - Just saw this note. Would be very interested in:

      1. The article,
      2. The USARS rule quote - I've been frustrated by the fact that shuffling is considered moving forward, when the WFTDA ruleset doesn't imply that; it's just been inferred.



      On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Thomas Moore <bigtom757@...> wrote:
       

      I'm curious Sir, do you have a link to said article you were reading calling for a boycott?




      From: Philar <philar_72@...>
      To: RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 5:41 PM
      Subject: [RollerDerbyIsSport] A derby boycot

       
      I just read an article calling for a boycott of flat track roller derby. While I don't like the stall, and the rules and the interpretation of the rules that support stroller derby, even I don't call for a boycott.

      First of all, I will wait until the new rules set comes out later this year. I think the worst issues are clockwise skating, stop blocking on the track (shouldn't be legal but skating is not defined in the rules). Defined skating, and not allowing clockwise skating in all but a couple of situations would be a good start to solving some of the problems in my opinion.

      I hear it is likely there will be no more minors. It might work, it might not. The devil will be in the details. If thrown elbows are allowed, I'll oppose the rules. If minor forearms that do not affect plays are reduced to no fouls, I can live with it. However, we won't really know how these new rules will work until later.

      Will the pack be put into as smaller box and kept off the jammer line? Will one whistle be used to start both blockers and jammers? We'll just have to wait and see.

      So I'll keep attending derby, hoping the refs will do as good of a job as possible, with really difficult rules to enforce. And if you have friends skating, or if you enjoy derby, you should probably feel free to keep attending derby. And if you don't like the rules as is, then tell a skater since ultimately skaters vote in one form or another on the rules if they are WFTDA leagues.

      In my opinion, for the skaters, by the skaters is a legitimate form of governing bodies. However, when derby leagues and organizations starting selling tickets to fans, those fans became a partner of flat track derby, and their opinions should be listened to. This is not rocket science, but I would advice a little patience for derby fans, at least until the new flat track rules are out.

      Phil




    • Philar
      Here is the link to the article. http://www.examiner.com/article/pledge-to-boycott-anti-roller-derby-game-play?no_cache=1340648042 The quote from USARS rules,
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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        Here is the link to the article. http://www.examiner.com/article/pledge-to-boycott-anti-roller-derby-game-play?no_cache=1340648042

        The quote from USARS rules, not so easy, considering I took it from someone's interpretation of USARS rules not allowing shuffling as skating. Of course, I trust that person, a veteran skater I have known for seven years. And who knows if WFTDA certified refs actually call it for USARS international games?

        I have always thought that suffling, inferred or otherwise, as skating was ridiculous. And as poorly written as the rules may be, the rules committee has to take some of the blame for the stop game. That's my opinion of course, that blocking at a standstill should be called if a wall is stopped, and has effectively blocked the jammer who is trying to get by them. If the jammer is stopped, that standstill wall has a major impact, and should be called for a major penalty. But my interpretation is never accepted by the rules committee.

        And the rules are tough enough to enforce as it is. If a jammer leans into someone's back trying to push that blocker foward, if she is able to push them forward, isn't that at least a minor back block? And if you don't try to push the blocking wall foward, will you ever be able to legally get through the wall?

        In fact, if you push the last blocker out to 20 feet, physically leaning into an illegal hitting or blocking zone like the back, isn't that actually a major advantage and couldn't it be called a major? But how often is that called a major penalty?

        OK, I'm blowing up on the rules and their interpretation, but that's the mess that fans get to try to wade through right now, as do refs, as do skaters.

        Phil



        --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wow - Just saw this note. Would be very interested in:
        >
        > 1. The article,
        > 2. The USARS rule quote - I've been frustrated by the fact that shuffling
        > is considered moving forward, when the WFTDA ruleset doesn't imply that;
        > it's just been inferred.
        >
        >
        >
      • Rob Hudson
        A lot of what you re talking about are blocks that force a player out of established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a major.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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          A lot of what you're talking about are blocks that force a player out of established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a major. They're tougher to see, and they aren't often called by new referees.

          And the examiner- it's a venue for anyone who wants to write - so I wonder about the credibility of the author.

          On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Philar <philar_72@...> wrote:
           

          Here is the link to the article. http://www.examiner.com/article/pledge-to-boycott-anti-roller-derby-game-play?no_cache=1340648042

          The quote from USARS rules, not so easy, considering I took it from someone's interpretation of USARS rules not allowing shuffling as skating. Of course, I trust that person, a veteran skater I have known for seven years. And who knows if WFTDA certified refs actually call it for USARS international games?

          I have always thought that suffling, inferred or otherwise, as skating was ridiculous. And as poorly written as the rules may be, the rules committee has to take some of the blame for the stop game. That's my opinion of course, that blocking at a standstill should be called if a wall is stopped, and has effectively blocked the jammer who is trying to get by them. If the jammer is stopped, that standstill wall has a major impact, and should be called for a major penalty. But my interpretation is never accepted by the rules committee.

          And the rules are tough enough to enforce as it is. If a jammer leans into someone's back trying to push that blocker foward, if she is able to push them forward, isn't that at least a minor back block? And if you don't try to push the blocking wall foward, will you ever be able to legally get through the wall?

          In fact, if you push the last blocker out to 20 feet, physically leaning into an illegal hitting or blocking zone like the back, isn't that actually a major advantage and couldn't it be called a major? But how often is that called a major penalty?

          OK, I'm blowing up on the rules and their interpretation, but that's the mess that fans get to try to wade through right now, as do refs, as do skaters.

          Phil




          --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wow - Just saw this note. Would be very interested in:
          >
          > 1. The article,
          > 2. The USARS rule quote - I've been frustrated by the fact that shuffling
          > is considered moving forward, when the WFTDA ruleset doesn't imply that;
          > it's just been inferred.
          >
          >
          >


        • Philar
          I would love to see it called the way you said it should be called. Here is what I typically see. One of the teams kneels down at the back line (just in front
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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            I would love to see it called the way you said it should be called. Here is what I typically see.

            One of the teams kneels down at the back line (just in front of the jammer line) to get a no pack call immediately starting the jammers. One of the jammers is stopped by the back wall (opposing blockers), while the other jammer gets through and starts trying to push the front wall forward. Eventually the front wall splits 10 feet from the back wall, a no pack situation, and the front jammer is released, but often not the back jammer. That drives me crazy of course, but the pack refs and the back jammer ref have to know if impactful blocking is going on with the no pack situation and sometimes they don't.

            Typically, what may have occurred in that 20 or so seconds of early part of the jam is that back blocking has occurred by the jammers, that multi-player blocks may have occurred, that a direction of play block or two may have occurred, and that a destroying the pack foul may have occurred. That is a lot of fouls for refs to have to take care of.

            Another thing is that I am usually well off the track, and in Austin high up (row 11) and you catch some angles that refs just don't have. I actually call the jammers-blocking wall the "lean and shuffle."

            Since I was national derby examiner, I'm not going to be overly critical of the article. I understand the frustration. But even I, as passionate as I am concerning derby rules, would encourage people to be patient and wait for the new rules to come out after the tournament season.

            It is still worth the money to go out and see your derby friends skate at bouts, even if the rules are not the easiest for refs to call, the skaters to understand, and fans to understand. Thanks for the comments!

            Phil

            --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
            >
            > A lot of what you're talking about are blocks that force a player out of
            > established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a
            > major. They're tougher to see, and they aren't often called by new referees.
            >
            > And the examiner- it's a venue for anyone who wants to write - so I wonder
            > about the credibility of the author.
            >
            > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Philar <philar_72@...> wrote:
            >
          • s.y.chang
            I believe the term used by the WFTDA rulebook is relative position, which carries nuances different from those of the phrase established position. You
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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              I believe the term used by the WFTDA rulebook is "relative position," which carries nuances different from those of the phrase "established position."  You pretty much only "establish" position if you're standing still (cf basketball).  But who's blocking who when you have a jammer/blocker collision when the blocker is at a near-standstill-possibly-not-moving-forward?  Is the jammer back-blocking the heck out of the blocker, or is the blocker illegally standstill-blocking the jammer?  And what's the intent of the WFTDA rulebook?

              Thus far, the WFTDA rules have interpreted slower to be better--that is, if the blocker is shuffling or moving forward at 0.5 cm/sec, the jammer has committed the foul.  Similarly, if the pack breaks in two, the back half of the pack (slower) gets the benefit of the doubt.  Some refs forget to call an out of play major on blockers who are slowing the jammer down >= 20 ft behind the pack.

              You can decide whether or not to agree with that interpretation.  Windy Man's pack manifesto on his blog from a while back is especially enlightening if you want a deeper analysis.

              Regardless of what you may think of the Examiner article, the author does make some correct observations.  The rules release seems to be overdue, and derby fans are able to vote with their attendance.

              --sam




              On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
               

              A lot of what you're talking about are blocks that force a player out of established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a major. They're tougher to see, and they aren't often called by new referees.

              And the examiner- it's a venue for anyone who wants to write - so I wonder about the credibility of the author.



            • Rob Hudson
              Sure- and regarding credibility, I think my question is moreso what is the reach and the influence and the ethos of the author. Is the author someone who
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                Sure-  and regarding credibility, I think my question is moreso what is the reach and the influence and the ethos of the author. Is the author someone who pulls a lot of weight? Is it feasible for him to call for a boycott and have it be successful? Does he influence derby at large?

              • Philar
                I wonder if Windy Man is the same person as Derby Tron. Of concern to me is the difficulty in calling derby right now. If you get the best refs in the nation
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                  I wonder if Windy Man is the same person as Derby Tron. Of concern to me is the difficulty in calling derby right now. If you get the best refs in the nation calling it, you may have so many skaters in the box, like at last years WFTDA final, that the team best able to seamlessly survive the short track penalty situations is the better. You used to be able to say the team with the least jammer majors pretty much always won. That is not necessarily the case any more. Sometimes it is the team that best handles the transitiions on and off the track, i.e. the team with the most penalties in the tournament last year won the tournament. They are a very well coached team with some amazing skaters, but that's just borderline shocking in my mind.

                  I still think the back wall having an advantage in a no-pack situation is accidental. I think likely the front wall splitting away from the back wall is noticed by a pack ref, but the other refs may not hear the no pack call, or see it, and therefore may not call it. All I can say is, If you are a coach, you need to make sure the refs are aware that they are allowing advantageous blocking in a now pack in the back wall.

                  By the way, I've always thought that rules changes should be made after the five tournaments. I just hate the fact that the delay may be perpetuation the sloppy slow game.

                  Phil

                  --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "s.y.chang" <spamchang@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I believe the term used by the WFTDA rulebook is "relative position," which
                  > carries nuances different from those of the phrase "established position."
                  > You pretty much only "establish" position if you're standing still (cf
                  > basketball). But who's blocking who when you have a jammer/blocker
                  > collision when the blocker is at a
                  > near-standstill-possibly-not-moving-forward? Is the jammer back-blocking
                  > the heck out of the blocker, or is the blocker illegally
                  > standstill-blocking the jammer? And what's the intent of the WFTDA
                  > rulebook?
                  >
                  > Thus far, the WFTDA rules have interpreted slower to be better--that is, if
                  > the blocker is shuffling or moving forward at 0.5 cm/sec, the jammer has
                  > committed the foul. Similarly, if the pack breaks in two, the back half of
                  > the pack (slower) gets the benefit of the doubt. Some refs forget to call
                  > an out of play major on blockers who are slowing the jammer down >= 20 ft
                  > behind the pack.
                  >
                  > You can decide whether or not to agree with that interpretation. Windy
                  > Man's pack manifesto on his blog from a while back is especially
                  > enlightening if you want a deeper analysis.
                  >
                  > Regardless of what you may think of the Examiner article, the author does
                  > make some correct observations. The rules release seems to be overdue, and
                  > derby fans are able to vote with their attendance.
                  >
                  > --sam
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > A lot of what you're talking about are blocks that force a player out of
                  > > established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a
                  > > major. They're tougher to see, and they aren't often called by new referees.
                  > >
                  > > And the examiner- it's a venue for anyone who wants to write - so I wonder
                  > > about the credibility of the author.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Rob Hudson
                  As a member of a WFTDA league, I can t comment on certain things, but speaking as an individual, I think the sport is young enough to have rules changes be
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                    As a member of a WFTDA league, I can't comment on certain things, but speaking as an individual, I think the sport is young enough to have rules changes be enacted very quickly and see the consequences, before real money is involved.

                    I'd like a single-whistle start and a ban on shuffling or standing still.

                    On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Philar <philar_72@...> wrote:
                     

                    I wonder if Windy Man is the same person as Derby Tron. Of concern to me is the difficulty in calling derby right now. If you get the best refs in the nation calling it, you may have so many skaters in the box, like at last years WFTDA final, that the team best able to seamlessly survive the short track penalty situations is the better. You used to be able to say the team with the least jammer majors pretty much always won. That is not necessarily the case any more. Sometimes it is the team that best handles the transitiions on and off the track, i.e. the team with the most penalties in the tournament last year won the tournament. They are a very well coached team with some amazing skaters, but that's just borderline shocking in my mind.

                    I still think the back wall having an advantage in a no-pack situation is accidental. I think likely the front wall splitting away from the back wall is noticed by a pack ref, but the other refs may not hear the no pack call, or see it, and therefore may not call it. All I can say is, If you are a coach, you need to make sure the refs are aware that they are allowing advantageous blocking in a now pack in the back wall.

                    By the way, I've always thought that rules changes should be made after the five tournaments. I just hate the fact that the delay may be perpetuation the sloppy slow game.

                    Phil



                    --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "s.y.chang" <spamchang@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I believe the term used by the WFTDA rulebook is "relative position," which
                    > carries nuances different from those of the phrase "established position."
                    > You pretty much only "establish" position if you're standing still (cf
                    > basketball). But who's blocking who when you have a jammer/blocker
                    > collision when the blocker is at a
                    > near-standstill-possibly-not-moving-forward? Is the jammer back-blocking
                    > the heck out of the blocker, or is the blocker illegally
                    > standstill-blocking the jammer? And what's the intent of the WFTDA
                    > rulebook?
                    >
                    > Thus far, the WFTDA rules have interpreted slower to be better--that is, if
                    > the blocker is shuffling or moving forward at 0.5 cm/sec, the jammer has
                    > committed the foul. Similarly, if the pack breaks in two, the back half of
                    > the pack (slower) gets the benefit of the doubt. Some refs forget to call
                    > an out of play major on blockers who are slowing the jammer down >= 20 ft
                    > behind the pack.
                    >
                    > You can decide whether or not to agree with that interpretation. Windy
                    > Man's pack manifesto on his blog from a while back is especially
                    > enlightening if you want a deeper analysis.
                    >
                    > Regardless of what you may think of the Examiner article, the author does
                    > make some correct observations. The rules release seems to be overdue, and
                    > derby fans are able to vote with their attendance.
                    >
                    > --sam
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Rob Hudson <caveatrob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **

                    > >
                    > >
                    > > A lot of what you're talking about are blocks that force a player out of
                    > > established position, which should always be called, per the rules, as a
                    > > major. They're tougher to see, and they aren't often called by new referees.
                    > >
                    > > And the examiner- it's a venue for anyone who wants to write - so I wonder
                    > > about the credibility of the author.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >


                  • legionnaire100
                    I wouldn t boycott my local league because I love supporting my local league and I know that every body through the door matters to their bottom line. But
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                      I wouldn't boycott my local league because I love supporting my local league and I know that every body through the door matters to their bottom line. But when I travel and have the chance to watch other leagues/teams skate, I'm less inclined to go to those bouts because of the liklyhood of seeing "stroller derby". The tactic itself is boring to watch (not unlike watching trap hockey) and the times I've seen it there is a tendency for one team to jump out to a huge lead that the other team has no realistic chance to overcome. The bout is pretty much decided by halftime if not sooner so sticking around for the rest of the bout is a waste of time and (effectively) money.

                      I can very much appreciate strategy in roller derby but I tend to draw a line when the strategy means using tactics that just seem inherently anti-derby. What is the point of requiring a skater to be able to do (I think) 25 laps in 5 minutes when I've seen stroller derby jams where no one even left the line or they only skated 3-4 laps in 2 minutes? Or having to be able to take & give blocks when the skater line is often doing everything but holding hands and locking arms to prevent the jammer from getting through?

                      When you take a friend that has never seen derby to a bout to expose them to a physical, athletic, competitive sport and the play of the game lacks all of those elements, it's hard to get them to go again. And when they talk about it to other people, they will likely comment on how slow and boring the pace was. That doesn't attract fans unless you're talking about baseball & golf.

                      I'm not a skater but I love my league and I love women in general having this outlet for competitive athleticism. So change the rules or the interpretation of the rules so that the sport IS competitive and athletic.
                    • Philar
                      I agree entirely, except I like baseball and golf. You bring up a good point about 25 laps in five minutes being a requirement for skaters, and yet if they
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                        I agree entirely, except I like baseball and golf. You bring up a good point about 25 laps in five minutes being a requirement for skaters, and yet if they are doing four laps a jam, there is a disconnect.

                        I believe in conditioning for skaters so they aren't sloppy towards the end of the half, and the end of a game. And how often do big, strong teams try to slow the game down just because they cannot skate with the speed and quickness, or endurance of the other team? I once made a sign up, "Slow skaters love the stall." And while I was jabbing at the slow down game, in some cases it might actually be true.

                        Phil

                        --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "legionnaire100" <legionnaire100@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I wouldn't boycott my local league because I love supporting my local league and I know that every body through the door matters to their bottom line. But when I travel and have the chance to watch other leagues/teams skate, I'm less inclined to go to those bouts because of the liklyhood of seeing "stroller derby". The tactic itself is boring to watch (not unlike watching trap hockey) and the times I've seen it there is a tendency for one team to jump out to a huge lead that the other team has no realistic chance to overcome. The bout is pretty much decided by halftime if not sooner so sticking around for the rest of the bout is a waste of time and (effectively) money.
                        >
                        > I can very much appreciate strategy in roller derby but I tend to draw a line when the strategy means using tactics that just seem inherently anti-derby. What is the point of requiring a skater to be able to do (I think) 25 laps in 5 minutes when I've seen stroller derby jams where no one even left the line or they only skated 3-4 laps in 2 minutes? Or having to be able to take & give blocks when the skater line is often doing everything but holding hands and locking arms to prevent the jammer from getting through?
                        >
                        > When you take a friend that has never seen derby to a bout to expose them to a physical, athletic, competitive sport and the play of the game lacks all of those elements, it's hard to get them to go again. And when they talk about it to other people, they will likely comment on how slow and boring the pace was. That doesn't attract fans unless you're talking about baseball & golf.
                        >
                        > I'm not a skater but I love my league and I love women in general having this outlet for competitive athleticism. So change the rules or the interpretation of the rules so that the sport IS competitive and athletic.
                        >
                      • legionnaire100
                        The only thing I can say in defense of stroller derby is that it DOES give teams that may otherwise not be competitive a chance to win. I m talking about what
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                          The only thing I can say in defense of stroller derby is that it DOES give teams that may otherwise not be competitive a chance to win. I'm talking about what one would consider "small market" teams. Teams from small towns (or perhaps smallER cities) or rural areas where the poulation is much smaller and you simply don't have as many bodies to build a team and you probably can't form 2-4 local teams for both developing skills and raising funds (by hosting intra-league bouts).

                          It would be tiresome to constantly only see teams from the super large metro areas like LA, Denver, Houston, Seattle, Chicago, St.Louis, Dallas, Kansas City, Philidelphia, NYC, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Miami, Atlanta, etc be the ones that always comprise the regional/national winners due in no small part to the raw number of bodies they have to draw from. It's like high school when the A or AA sized school plays the AAAA or AAAAA sized school. 80-90% of the time the smaller school is going to get beat if not embarassed. The realistic chance to win is what motivates underdogs. If a LITTLE bit of stroller derby allows them that chance, it doesn't offend my competitive sensabilities as much.

                          --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "Philar" <philar_72@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I agree entirely, except I like baseball and golf. You bring up a good point about 25 laps in five minutes being a requirement for skaters, and yet if they are doing four laps a jam, there is a disconnect.
                          >
                          > I believe in conditioning for skaters so they aren't sloppy towards the end of the half, and the end of a game. And how often do big, strong teams try to slow the game down just because they cannot skate with the speed and quickness, or endurance of the other team? I once made a sign up, "Slow skaters love the stall." And while I was jabbing at the slow down game, in some cases it might actually be true.
                          >
                          > Phil
                        • s.y.chang
                          It s the big teams that execute stroller derby best--have you ever seen a small market team upset a team from a super larger metro area with stroller derby?
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                            It's the big teams that execute stroller derby best--have you ever seen a small market team upset a team from a "super larger metro area" with stroller derby?  Generally speaking, it's the little teams that get slaughtered.
                            --sam



                            On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 4:00 PM, legionnaire100 <legionnaire100@...> wrote:
                             

                            The only thing I can say in defense of stroller derby is that it DOES give teams that may otherwise not be competitive a chance to win. I'm talking about what one would consider "small market" teams. Teams from small towns (or perhaps smallER cities) or rural areas where the poulation is much smaller and you simply don't have as many bodies to build a team and you probably can't form 2-4 local teams for both developing skills and raising funds (by hosting intra-league bouts).

                            It would be tiresome to constantly only see teams from the super large metro areas like LA, Denver, Houston, Seattle, Chicago, St.Louis, Dallas, Kansas City, Philidelphia, NYC, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Miami, Atlanta, etc be the ones that always comprise the regional/national winners due in no small part to the raw number of bodies they have to draw from. It's like high school when the A or AA sized school plays the AAAA or AAAAA sized school. 80-90% of the time the smaller school is going to get beat if not embarassed. The realistic chance to win is what motivates underdogs. If a LITTLE bit of stroller derby allows them that chance, it doesn't offend my competitive sensabilities as much.



                            --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "Philar" <philar_72@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I agree entirely, except I like baseball and golf. You bring up a good point about 25 laps in five minutes being a requirement for skaters, and yet if they are doing four laps a jam, there is a disconnect.
                            >
                            > I believe in conditioning for skaters so they aren't sloppy towards the end of the half, and the end of a game. And how often do big, strong teams try to slow the game down just because they cannot skate with the speed and quickness, or endurance of the other team? I once made a sign up, "Slow skaters love the stall." And while I was jabbing at the slow down game, in some cases it might actually be true.
                            >
                            > Phil


                          • Philar
                            Sam is correct! I will not forget reading about a powerhouse top three team with a power jam, beating a team by about 200 points, destroying the pack (no
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 10, 2012
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                              Sam is correct! I will not forget reading about a powerhouse top three team with a power jam, beating a team by about 200 points, destroying the pack (no pack) so their jammer could score extra points in a power jam situation. Purposeful destroying the pack, splitting the pack by slowing down the back wall, in a line on the outside of the track, against a much smaller league is not very sporting when they are being slaughtered.

                              The other thing, I've seen the stall crap pulled in another sport. In college and high school basketball, teams would go into a stall, they called it "taking the air out of the ball." The opposing fans would yell, "Boring, boring!" Eventually, college basketball countered the stall with a 45 second shot clock. As long as I can remember the NBA has had a 24 second shot clock.

                              Boring is boring, and stroller derby is largely boring because it de-emphasizes speed and athleticism. And one of the ways it started was a certain league all star team got beat by a Texas Rollergirls league team on their home floor, so they changed up their strategy just in time for the tournament season. The stall worked and they finished third in the final tournament, just behind Texas.

                              The strategy works, but that doesn't mean it's good or appealing to sports fans.

                              Phil

                              --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "s.y.chang" <spamchang@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > It's the big teams that execute stroller derby best--have you ever seen a
                              > small market team upset a team from a "super larger metro area" with
                              > stroller derby? Generally speaking, it's the little teams that get
                              > slaughtered.
                              > --sam
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • legionnaire100
                              Oh I totally agree. The first time I saw stroller derby was at a bout in KCMO a couple of years ago and it was being used by the home league (which had been
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 11, 2012
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                                Oh I totally agree.

                                The first time I saw stroller derby was at a bout in KCMO a couple of years ago and it was being used by the home league (which had been around for seven or eight years at the time AND a major metro area) against the team from Fayetteville, Arkansas (the only huge things there are the WalMart headquarters and University of Arkansas football.). The score was something like 130+ to maybe 15 at halftime when I left.

                                So yes, on top of at probably six years more experience and I'd guess at least ten times the population to draw from, they choose to use stroller derby tactics as well. I guess those 80+ point wins REALLY matter.


                                --- In RollerDerbyIsSport@yahoogroups.com, "s.y.chang" <spamchang@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > It's the big teams that execute stroller derby best--have you ever seen a
                                > small market team upset a team from a "super larger metro area" with
                                > stroller derby? Generally speaking, it's the little teams that get
                                > slaughtered.
                                > --sam
                                >
                                > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 4:00 PM, legionnaire100 <legionnaire100@...>wrote:
                                >
                                > > The only thing I can say in defense of stroller derby is that it DOES give
                                > > teams that may otherwise not be competitive a chance to win. I'm talking
                                > > about what one would consider "small market" teams. Teams from small towns
                                > > (or perhaps smallER cities) or rural areas where the poulation is much
                                > > smaller and you simply don't have as many bodies to build a team and you
                                > > probably can't form 2-4 local teams for both developing skills and raising
                                > > funds (by hosting intra-league bouts).
                                > >
                                > > It would be tiresome to constantly only see teams from the super large
                                > > metro areas like LA, Denver, Houston, Seattle, Chicago, St.Louis, Dallas,
                                > > Kansas City, Philidelphia, NYC, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Miami,
                                > > Atlanta, etc be the ones that always comprise the regional/national winners
                                > > due in no small part to the raw number of bodies they have to draw from.
                                > > It's like high school when the A or AA sized school plays the AAAA or AAAAA
                                > > sized school. 80-90% of the time the smaller school is going to get beat if
                                > > not embarassed. The realistic chance to win is what motivates underdogs. If
                                > > a LITTLE bit of stroller derby allows them that chance, it doesn't offend
                                > > my competitive sensabilities as much.
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