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RE: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"

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  • Dan Barclay
    Filling stations will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be useful for
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
      "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars
      (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be
      useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges, probably at
      a home base.



      Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank. You pump
      gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2 MJ/L or
      9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my conversions are
      right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4 or 5
      minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25 gallons of
      gasoline.



      With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider charger
      efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%. Let's
      just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is 37,000 watts of
      heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do NOT want
      to be standing next to that thing.



      The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that there is no
      change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains stored as
      chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to chemical
      energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries you'd have
      to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning that
      everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology improvement,
      starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and they gave
      me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to solve, but
      certainly not easy.



      What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will allow
      someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW instantly, then
      turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same. That's one
      hell of a shakeup for the power system.



      "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you currently do gas
      vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".



      Dan







      From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of D Detroit
      Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
      To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"





      Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years. Heck, even I
      have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made modifications
      that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
      Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a back seat
      back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by reinstalling the
      air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a charging
      station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
      If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy would be
      selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test & tune
      night.

      --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
      Neff" <edneff1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
      > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
      > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
      >
      > Check this out.
      >
      > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
      >
      >
      >
      > ----------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date: 10/08/09
      06:39:00
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Barbara B
      The big car makers have been slacking off for many years. They are being paid off by the Big oil companies Not to produce alternative fueled vehicles. They
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
        The big car makers have been slacking off for many years. They are being paid off by the Big oil companies Not to produce alternative fueled vehicles.
        They have had the technology since back in the 90s. In the mid 90s Barbara and I test drove an "all electric future car" at the GM Pavilion at Epcot Center in Florida.

        GM also produced the EV1 that people loved. So much so that they didn't want to turn them back in and in some cases HID Them! LOL
        All those cars were finally all gotten and crushed somewhere in the Arizona desert.

        Here is a US car company producing legal street driven EV Roadsters that will "smoke" everything on the road, even european exotics. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. And they get 220 miles on a single charge.
        They also unveiled an EV Model S sedan, available in about a year or so.
        http://www.teslamotors.com/

        They are also adding more dealerships/service centers across the US and Europe.

        Like I said, the technology is there and has been there for many years.

        Bob



        --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Neff" <edneff1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
        > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
        > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
        >
        > Check this out.
        >
        > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date: 10/08/09 06:39:00
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Barbara B
        No they won t, as filling stations aren t needed because you can fill your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity. I realize you took a lot of time and
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
          No they won't, as "filling stations" aren't needed because you can "fill" your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity.

          I realize you took a lot of time and did a lot of conversions but, anywhere there is an electric outlet of some sort you can charge your EV.
          The only difference is time required. If you are totally discharged, (only after driving 220 miles) then it could take less than 4 hours, 6 hours, or 8 hours to completly recharge. Depending on plug used.
          You can also top off in between shorter trips with plugging into any standard 120v household outlet.

          Marriott Corp. is installing the home charging stations at many of their properties. Also casinos, especially on the west coast and Lake Tahoe have charging stations in place since last year.

          It's not as big of a problem as you think.

          http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

          Bob



          --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Barclay" <Dan@...> wrote:
          >
          > "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars
          > (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be
          > useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges, probably at
          > a home base.
          >
          >
          >
          > Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank. You pump
          > gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2 MJ/L or
          > 9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my conversions are
          > right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4 or 5
          > minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25 gallons of
          > gasoline.
          >
          >
          >
          > With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider charger
          > efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%. Let's
          > just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is 37,000 watts of
          > heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do NOT want
          > to be standing next to that thing.
          >
          >
          >
          > The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that there is no
          > change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains stored as
          > chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to chemical
          > energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries you'd have
          > to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning that
          > everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology improvement,
          > starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and they gave
          > me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to solve, but
          > certainly not easy.
          >
          >
          >
          > What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will allow
          > someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW instantly, then
          > turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same. That's one
          > hell of a shakeup for the power system.
          >
          >
          >
          > "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you currently do gas
          > vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".
          >
          >
          >
          > Dan
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of D Detroit
          > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
          > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years. Heck, even I
          > have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made modifications
          > that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
          > Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a back seat
          > back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by reinstalling the
          > air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a charging
          > station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
          > If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy would be
          > selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test & tune
          > night.
          >
          > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
          > Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
          > > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
          > > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
          > >
          > > Check this out.
          > >
          > > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----------
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date: 10/08/09
          > 06:39:00
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Dan Barclay
          Bob, I don t know if you realize it, but you said exactly what I said. You will NOT find a filling station that will allow you to refill in the same way you do
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
            Bob,



            I don't know if you realize it, but you said exactly what I said.



            You will NOT find a filling station that will allow you to refill in the
            same way you do a liquid fuel vehicle. You can plug in for a longer time,
            but you won't be able to drive a couple of hundred miles then fill up and
            drive some more. That is my point.



            That, of course, is the reason hybrids are working out. The hybrid can take
            on fuel quickly and motor on, charging the battery and moving the car over a
            longer time. Electric cars with fuel cells might work out as well, but
            charging high energy battery arrays in a short time is a huge problem.



            Pure electric cars, with few exceptions, will be used for "home to work" or
            local errands so that you can plug them in for long periods between
            lightweight missions.



            Dan



            From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Barbara B
            Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 12:10 PM
            To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"





            No they won't, as "filling stations" aren't needed because you can "fill"
            your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity.

            I realize you took a lot of time and did a lot of conversions but, anywhere
            there is an electric outlet of some sort you can charge your EV.
            The only difference is time required. If you are totally discharged, (only
            after driving 220 miles) then it could take less than 4 hours, 6 hours, or 8
            hours to completly recharge. Depending on plug used.
            You can also top off in between shorter trips with plugging into any
            standard 120v household outlet.

            Marriott Corp. is installing the home charging stations at many of their
            properties. Also casinos, especially on the west coast and Lake Tahoe have
            charging stations in place since last year.

            It's not as big of a problem as you think.

            http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

            Bob

            --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dan
            Barclay" <Dan@...> wrote:
            >
            > "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars
            > (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be
            > useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges, probably
            at
            > a home base.
            >
            >
            >
            > Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank. You pump
            > gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2 MJ/L or
            > 9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my conversions
            are
            > right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4 or 5
            > minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25 gallons of
            > gasoline.
            >
            >
            >
            > With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider charger
            > efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%. Let's
            > just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is 37,000 watts
            of
            > heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do NOT want
            > to be standing next to that thing.
            >
            >
            >
            > The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that there is no
            > change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains stored as
            > chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to chemical
            > energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries you'd
            have
            > to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning that
            > everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology
            improvement,
            > starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and they gave
            > me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to solve, but
            > certainly not easy.
            >
            >
            >
            > What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will allow
            > someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW instantly, then
            > turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same. That's one
            > hell of a shakeup for the power system.
            >
            >
            >
            > "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you currently do
            gas
            > vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".
            >
            >
            >
            > Dan
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf
            > Of D Detroit
            > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
            > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years. Heck, even
            I
            > have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made
            modifications
            > that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
            > Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a back
            seat
            > back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by reinstalling the
            > air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a charging
            > station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
            > If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy would be
            > selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test & tune
            > night.
            >
            > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
            > Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
            > > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
            > > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
            > >
            > > Check this out.
            > >
            > > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----------
            > >
            > >
            > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
            > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date:
            10/08/09
            > 06:39:00
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wolfbob
            Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220 miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220 HPhours. With 0.746
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
              Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220 miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220 HPhours. With 0.746 KW/HP that is 164 KWh. Now the conversion from ac to HP is not too efficient say it is 25% (which I doubt) then we are using 656KWh from the mains. My current override electric rate from Southern California Edison is $0.38/KWh for a total cost of $250.

              You can cut the HP needed by 3 and raise the efficiency by three and you still are paying more than a 30 MPG car.

              WBob
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Barbara B
              To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:09 AM
              Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"


              No they won't, as "filling stations" aren't needed because you can "fill" your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity.

              I realize you took a lot of time and did a lot of conversions but, anywhere there is an electric outlet of some sort you can charge your EV.
              The only difference is time required. If you are totally discharged, (only after driving 220 miles) then it could take less than 4 hours, 6 hours, or 8 hours to completly recharge. Depending on plug used.
              You can also top off in between shorter trips with plugging into any standard 120v household outlet.

              Marriott Corp. is installing the home charging stations at many of their properties. Also casinos, especially on the west coast and Lake Tahoe have charging stations in place since last year.

              It's not as big of a problem as you think.

              http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php

              Bob

              --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Barclay" <Dan@...> wrote:
              >
              > "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars
              > (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be
              > useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges, probably at
              > a home base.
              >
              >
              >
              > Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank. You pump
              > gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2 MJ/L or
              > 9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my conversions are
              > right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4 or 5
              > minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25 gallons of
              > gasoline.
              >
              >
              >
              > With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider charger
              > efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%. Let's
              > just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is 37,000 watts of
              > heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do NOT want
              > to be standing next to that thing.
              >
              >
              >
              > The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that there is no
              > change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains stored as
              > chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to chemical
              > energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries you'd have
              > to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning that
              > everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology improvement,
              > starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and they gave
              > me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to solve, but
              > certainly not easy.
              >
              >
              >
              > What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will allow
              > someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW instantly, then
              > turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same. That's one
              > hell of a shakeup for the power system.
              >
              >
              >
              > "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you currently do gas
              > vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".
              >
              >
              >
              > Dan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of D Detroit
              > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
              > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years. Heck, even I
              > have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made modifications
              > that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
              > Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a back seat
              > back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by reinstalling the
              > air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a charging
              > station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
              > If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy would be
              > selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test & tune
              > night.
              >
              > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
              > Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
              > > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
              > > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
              > >
              > > Check this out.
              > >
              > > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------
              > >
              > >
              > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date: 10/08/09
              > 06:39:00
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Danny Miller
              Well, LiFePO4 will last for like 10 yrs. Li-ion was awful in that its capacity was permanently degraded by like15% per year (or more) if left at full charge at
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
                Well, LiFePO4 will last for like 10 yrs.
                Li-ion was awful in that its capacity was permanently degraded by
                like15% per year (or more) if left at full charge at high temps. And
                that wasn't even considering Texas-summer-type temps. Li-ion was also
                not good at high-current surges, those could also degrade them.
                LiFePO4 has none of these problems.

                You can potentially replace failed cells OK. But not open up a cell and
                "fix" its plates of course.

                "Super-capacitors" were a fanciful technology promised by EE-Stor.
                Unfortunately, it has never panned out. They have not been able to
                demonstrate any working model of a capacitor of the density needed to
                run a vehicle, of any size. Their initial patents were unusual in that
                they documented actual weight and volumetric density, and production
                costs. This was unusual because they had NOTHING to base that on
                really, having no working model, so you might as well promise it'll also
                put a camel through the eye of a needle. It was to get investors.

                Truth is, there ARE some incredible impressive capacitors now that
                didn't exist 5 years ago, but none are even close to being able to power
                a car for even a mile. I don't know anyone even proposing the idea
                except EEStor.

                Danny

                Sporl wrote:
                > That's a great video.
                >
                > Hopefully in the near future batteries will become more reliable. I hate the fact that you basically throw them away (recycled) rather than having the ability to pull the components and replace with new. Heavy batteries means expensive transportation costs, expensive to recycle, and expensive to restock as new. I heard something like 9X% of lead acid batteries are built from recycled materials.
                >
                > Lithium lasts longer, have more power, but have the same net problem. They fail after X amount of time and are not serviceable.
                >
                > I bet super-capacitors will eventually win out.
                >
                > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Neff" <edneff1@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                >> garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
                >> giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                >>
                >> Check this out.
                >>
                >> www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                >>
                >>
              • Barbara B
                I m not sure just what your formula or conversion is here, as it doesn t make any sense. It doesn t matter whether you drive the car 30 MPH or 130 MPH, as the
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
                  I'm not sure just what your formula or conversion is here, as it doesn't make any sense.
                  It doesn't matter whether you drive the car 30 MPH or 130 MPH, as the battery pack is just depleted at different rates. That's all.

                  The cost of recharging these battery packs is about $.02 per mile or about $5 total with a fully depleted 53 KWH pack.

                  Your $.38 per KWH sounds very high. Nations avg. KWH is about $.10 and here in Northern Virginia is $.11 per KWH.
                  So 53 KWH x $.11 is $5.83. Pretty Damn Good!!

                  Bob



                  --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "wolfbob" <wolfbob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220 miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220 HPhours. With 0.746 KW/HP that is 164 KWh. Now the conversion from ac to HP is not too efficient say it is 25% (which I doubt) then we are using 656KWh from the mains. My current override electric rate from Southern California Edison is $0.38/KWh for a total cost of $250.
                  >
                  > You can cut the HP needed by 3 and raise the efficiency by three and you still are paying more than a 30 MPG car.
                  >
                  > WBob
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Barbara B
                  > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:09 AM
                  > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
                  >
                  >
                  > No they won't, as "filling stations" aren't needed because you can "fill" your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity.
                  >
                  > I realize you took a lot of time and did a lot of conversions but, anywhere there is an electric outlet of some sort you can charge your EV.
                  > The only difference is time required. If you are totally discharged, (only after driving 220 miles) then it could take less than 4 hours, 6 hours, or 8 hours to completly recharge. Depending on plug used.
                  > You can also top off in between shorter trips with plugging into any standard 120v household outlet.
                  >
                  > Marriott Corp. is installing the home charging stations at many of their properties. Also casinos, especially on the west coast and Lake Tahoe have charging stations in place since last year.
                  >
                  > It's not as big of a problem as you think.
                  >
                  > http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Barclay" <Dan@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable cars
                  > > (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will only be
                  > > useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges, probably at
                  > > a home base.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank. You pump
                  > > gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2 MJ/L or
                  > > 9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my conversions are
                  > > right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4 or 5
                  > > minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25 gallons of
                  > > gasoline.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider charger
                  > > efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%. Let's
                  > > just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is 37,000 watts of
                  > > heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do NOT want
                  > > to be standing next to that thing.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that there is no
                  > > change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains stored as
                  > > chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to chemical
                  > > energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries you'd have
                  > > to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning that
                  > > everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology improvement,
                  > > starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and they gave
                  > > me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to solve, but
                  > > certainly not easy.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will allow
                  > > someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW instantly, then
                  > > turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same. That's one
                  > > hell of a shakeup for the power system.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you currently do gas
                  > > vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dan
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > > Of D Detroit
                  > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
                  > > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years. Heck, even I
                  > > have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made modifications
                  > > that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
                  > > Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a back seat
                  > > back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by reinstalling the
                  > > air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a charging
                  > > station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
                  > > If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy would be
                  > > selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test & tune
                  > > night.
                  > >
                  > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
                  > > Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                  > > > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
                  > > > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                  > > >
                  > > > Check this out.
                  > > >
                  > > > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  > > > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release Date: 10/08/09
                  > > 06:39:00
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Danny Miller
                  You re way, way off. And I like numbers. An EV is typically described in watt-hrs per mile, average. The EV1 was a super-low drag 2-seater, but the Toyota
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 9, 2009
                    You're way, way off. And I like numbers. An EV is typically described
                    in watt-hrs per mile, average. The EV1 was a super-low drag 2-seater,
                    but the Toyota Rav4 SUV was made in an EV version and that's closer to
                    what a "typical" driver needs. That was shown to use about 250wh/mi on
                    average for the RAV4-EV, and that includes the motor's inefficiency.
                    Your 220mi trip needs 55KWh, not 164.

                    The charging efficiency with the Rav4 was about 90%, not 25%! And
                    that's with NiMH, which is a notoriously inefficient charge cycle. EV1
                    got burned by that because the charging created so much heat that they
                    solved it by using even more electricity to run the car's AC to cool
                    them down, which really ate into the efficiency.

                    LiFePO4 is much more efficient by nature. Call it 95%, 98%, whatever-
                    doesn't make a lot of difference. It's not a very significant loss
                    either way.

                    And $0.10/KWh more or less the cost in the US. So, with a normal
                    car-shaped car, $5.79 to get 220mi. If you've got some sort of extreme
                    "punishment" rate for overuse, that would need be worked out.

                    Even with LiFePO4, the cost of the batts is considerable. Those get
                    2,000-7,000 full cycles before the capacity degrades by 20% (they do
                    still work long after that). A $10,000 pack (it can certainly run more
                    than that today, you could easily spend $20k) getting 5,000 cycles would
                    be $2/cycle and that's on the same order of magnitude as the electricity.

                    The Toyota Rav4 was also a great example for calculation because it was
                    made in both electric and gasoline versions. That got 22/26 mpg. So,
                    the very BEST it could get for 220mi is 8.46 gal, @$2.75/gal (or plug in
                    whatever number you like, gas is not going to stay cheap forever) that's
                    a $23.27 charge. At $4/gal it's $33.84.

                    Also keep in mind an EV needs no oil changes, and with regen braking
                    almost never needs brake pads. If you change your own oil, fine, but if
                    you pay somebody $50 to change it every 5,000 mi, that's another $2.20
                    per 220 mi "tank".

                    Danny

                    wolfbob wrote:
                    > Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220 miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220 HPhours. With 0.746 KW/HP that is 164 KWh. Now the conversion from ac to HP is not too efficient say it is 25% (which I doubt) then we are using 656KWh from the mains. My current override electric rate from Southern California Edison is $0.38/KWh for a total cost of $250.
                    >
                    > You can cut the HP needed by 3 and raise the efficiency by three and you still are paying more than a 30 MPG car.
                    >
                    > WBob
                    >
                  • Joseph & Julie Karaisz
                    Also, you have to remember, a direct conversion from gas to electric is not going to be correct, since less than 20% of the energy goes into forward and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 10, 2009
                      Also, you have to remember, a direct conversion from gas to electric is
                      not going to be correct, since less than 20% of the energy goes into
                      forward and backward motion of the car. The balance of the energy from
                      gas goes to heat waste.

                      On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Barbara B wrote:

                      > I'm not sure just what your formula or conversion is here, as it
                      > doesn't make any sense.
                      > It doesn't matter whether you drive the car 30 MPH or 130 MPH, as the
                      > battery pack is just depleted at different rates. That's all.
                      >
                      > The cost of recharging these battery packs is about $.02 per mile or
                      > about $5 total with a fully depleted 53 KWH pack.
                      >
                      > Your $.38 per KWH sounds very high. Nations avg. KWH is about $.10
                      > and here in Northern Virginia is $.11 per KWH.
                      > So 53 KWH x $.11 is $5.83. Pretty Damn Good!!
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "wolfbob" <wolfbob@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220
                      > miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220
                      > HPhours. With 0.746 KW/HP that is 164 KWh. Now the conversion from ac
                      > to HP is not too efficient say it is 25% (which I doubt) then we are
                      > using 656KWh from the mains. My current override electric rate from
                      > Southern California Edison is $0.38/KWh for a total cost of $250.
                      > >
                      > > You can cut the HP needed by 3 and raise the efficiency by three
                      > and you still are paying more than a 30 MPG car.
                      > >
                      > > WBob
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Barbara B
                      > > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 10:09 AM
                      > > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > No they won't, as "filling stations" aren't needed because you can
                      > "fill" your EV virtually anywhere there is electricity.
                      > >
                      > > I realize you took a lot of time and did a lot of conversions but,
                      > anywhere there is an electric outlet of some sort you can charge your
                      > EV.
                      > > The only difference is time required. If you are totally
                      > discharged, (only after driving 220 miles) then it could take less
                      > than 4 hours, 6 hours, or 8 hours to completly recharge. Depending on
                      > plug used.
                      > > You can also top off in between shorter trips with plugging into
                      > any standard 120v household outlet.
                      > >
                      > > Marriott Corp. is installing the home charging stations at many of
                      > their properties. Also casinos, especially on the west coast and Lake
                      > Tahoe have charging stations in place since last year.
                      > >
                      > > It's not as big of a problem as you think.
                      > >
                      > > http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php
                      > >
                      > > Bob
                      > >
                      > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Barclay" <Dan@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > "Filling stations" will severely limit pure electric rechargeable
                      > cars
                      > > > (battery or capacitor). The end result is that pure electric will
                      > only be
                      > > > useful for missions that can be done between overnight charges,
                      > probably at
                      > > > a home base.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Consider for a minute what happens when you fill your auto tank.
                      > You pump
                      > > > gasoline at maybe 5 gallons per minute. Gasoline is about 34.2
                      > MJ/L or
                      > > > 9MJ/Gal. Energy wise that's equivalent to about 750KW if my
                      > conversions are
                      > > > right. So, you have to charge your battery at about 750KW for 4
                      > or 5
                      > > > minutes to be the equivalent of filling your tank with 20 or 25
                      > gallons of
                      > > > gasoline.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > With a 300v or so battery array that's 2500 amps! Now consider
                      > charger
                      > > > efficiency. I've seen numbers ranging from less than 80% to 95%.
                      > Let's
                      > > > just assume we have a 95% efficient charger. 5% of 750KW is
                      > 37,000 watts of
                      > > > heat to get rid of, or have the temp go way up. At 300V! You do
                      > NOT want
                      > > > to be standing next to that thing.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > The reason you don't have this problem with gasoline is that
                      > there is no
                      > > > change in form for the energy. The energy starts and remains
                      > stored as
                      > > > chemical energy. Charging involves changing from electrical to
                      > chemical
                      > > > energy. In order to have the equivalent operation with batteries
                      > you'd have
                      > > > to swap the discharged batteries for charged batteries. meaning
                      > that
                      > > > everybody has the same battery (which stops battery technology
                      > improvement,
                      > > > starts lawsuits over the fact that I swapped a "new" battery and
                      > they gave
                      > > > me a "worn out" battery, etc, etc). Problems not impossible to
                      > solve, but
                      > > > certainly not easy.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > What's more, somebody has to build a "filling station" that will
                      > allow
                      > > > someone to pull up and increase electrical demand by 750KW
                      > instantly, then
                      > > > turn it off instantly, while 6 or 8 more "pumps" do the same.
                      > That's one
                      > > > hell of a shakeup for the power system.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "Filling stations" that allow you to recharge in a way you
                      > currently do gas
                      > > > vehicles are going to be <ahem> "a real problem".
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Dan
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      > > > Of D Detroit
                      > > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:24 AM
                      > > > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Electric Car "MUST SEE"
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Guys have been building hotrods in their garage for 100 years.
                      > Heck, even I
                      > > > have taken a perfectly good working, comfortable car and made
                      > modifications
                      > > > that made it less useful and less pleasant to drive.
                      > > > Perhaps the Detroit automakers have been working on engineering a
                      > back seat
                      > > > back into the car. And letting you roll the windows up by
                      > reinstalling the
                      > > > air conditioning. And trying to prevent you from having to find a
                      > charging
                      > > > station for 12 minutes after you drive every quarter mile !
                      > > > If it was easy to engineer a practical electric car, this guy
                      > would be
                      > > > selling the things instead of running it at the dragstrip on test
                      > & tune
                      > > > night.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
                      > > > Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                      > > > > garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in
                      > all their
                      > > > > giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Check this out.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ----------
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                      > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > > > > Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.7/2422 - Release
                      > Date: 10/08/09
                      > > > 06:39:00
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Danny Miller
                      Well, he was estimating based on the motor providing 50HP. That correctly excludes motor inefficiency. The problem is he estimates 50HP to move at 50mph is
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 10, 2009
                        Well, he was estimating based on the motor providing 50HP. That
                        correctly excludes motor inefficiency.
                        The problem is he estimates 50HP to move at 50mph is way off for a sedan
                        or smallish SUV. Only a big vehicle towing a large load approaches this.

                        The Rav4-EV, a small SUV, used less than half that at 50mph. And it did
                        not have exceptional aerodynamics. In fact it lacked the body
                        modifications that can make an EV much more efficient, like reducing and
                        curving back the radiator and engine compartment size, and adding a
                        belly pan.

                        Danny

                        Joseph & Julie Karaisz wrote:
                        > Also, you have to remember, a direct conversion from gas to electric is
                        > not going to be correct, since less than 20% of the energy goes into
                        > forward and backward motion of the car. The balance of the energy from
                        > gas goes to heat waste.
                        >
                        > On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Barbara B wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >> I'm not sure just what your formula or conversion is here, as it
                        >> doesn't make any sense.
                        >> It doesn't matter whether you drive the car 30 MPH or 130 MPH, as the
                        >> battery pack is just depleted at different rates. That's all.
                        >>
                        >> The cost of recharging these battery packs is about $.02 per mile or
                        >> about $5 total with a fully depleted 53 KWH pack.
                        >>
                        >> Your $.38 per KWH sounds very high. Nations avg. KWH is about $.10
                        >> and here in Northern Virginia is $.11 per KWH.
                        >> So 53 KWH x $.11 is $5.83. Pretty Damn Good!!
                        >>
                        >> Bob
                        >>
                        >> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "wolfbob" <wolfbob@...> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > Have you considered the cost of recharging? Lets say you go 220
                        >> miles at 50 MPH which requires around 50 HP for 4.3 hours. That is 220
                        >> HPhours. With 0.746 KW/HP that is 164 KWh. Now the conversion from ac
                        >> to HP is not too efficient say it is 25% (which I doubt) then we are
                        >> using 656KWh from the mains. My current override electric rate from
                        >> Southern California Edison is $0.38/KWh for a total cost of $250.
                        >> >
                        >> > You can cut the HP needed by 3 and raise the efficiency by three
                        >> and you still are paying more than a 30 MPG car.
                        >> >
                        >> > WBob
                        >> >
                      • Frans
                        Now back to our little electric pet car: Robomow. Can anyone explain why Friendly Machines has not produced a LiFePO4 version yet. Of course the initial
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 11, 2009
                          Now back to our little electric pet car: Robomow.

                          Can anyone explain why Friendly Machines has not produced a LiFePO4 version yet. Of course the initial investment in batteries will be high, but reading the experiences here five battery refreshments over Robomow's lifetime is no exception. At fifty dollars per battery that is $500.- worth of batteries. I guess you could buy LiFePO4 for that and would it be impossible/difficult to adapt Robomow's software?

                          --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, LiFePO4 will last for like 10 yrs.
                          > Li-ion was awful in that its capacity was permanently degraded by
                          > like15% per year (or more) if left at full charge at high temps. And
                          > that wasn't even considering Texas-summer-type temps. Li-ion was also
                          > not good at high-current surges, those could also degrade them.
                          > LiFePO4 has none of these problems.
                          >
                          > You can potentially replace failed cells OK. But not open up a cell and
                          > "fix" its plates of course.
                          >
                          > "Super-capacitors" were a fanciful technology promised by EE-Stor.
                          > Unfortunately, it has never panned out. They have not been able to
                          > demonstrate any working model of a capacitor of the density needed to
                          > run a vehicle, of any size. Their initial patents were unusual in that
                          > they documented actual weight and volumetric density, and production
                          > costs. This was unusual because they had NOTHING to base that on
                          > really, having no working model, so you might as well promise it'll also
                          > put a camel through the eye of a needle. It was to get investors.
                          >
                          > Truth is, there ARE some incredible impressive capacitors now that
                          > didn't exist 5 years ago, but none are even close to being able to power
                          > a car for even a mile. I don't know anyone even proposing the idea
                          > except EEStor.
                          >
                          > Danny
                          >
                          > Sporl wrote:
                          > > That's a great video.
                          > >
                          > > Hopefully in the near future batteries will become more reliable. I hate the fact that you basically throw them away (recycled) rather than having the ability to pull the components and replace with new. Heavy batteries means expensive transportation costs, expensive to recycle, and expensive to restock as new. I heard something like 9X% of lead acid batteries are built from recycled materials.
                          > >
                          > > Lithium lasts longer, have more power, but have the same net problem. They fail after X amount of time and are not serviceable.
                          > >
                          > > I bet super-capacitors will eventually win out.
                          > >
                          > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                          > >> garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
                          > >> giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                          > >>
                          > >> Check this out.
                          > >>
                          > >> www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          >
                        • Danny Miller
                          It should not be impossible- in fact I don t think a software change is even necessary for the older versions with a lower cutoff voltage. There is some
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 11, 2009
                            It should not be impossible- in fact I don't think a software change is
                            even necessary for the older versions with a lower cutoff voltage.
                            There is some difficulty in that the mower cannot readily guess the
                            battery's charge state by looking at the pack voltage. The pack
                            capacity is determined by the lowest voltage cell inside it. The total
                            voltage doesn't give that because higher voltages on other cells cover
                            it up.

                            LeFePO4 is typically charged with a one-wire-per-cell-plus-ground
                            interface, a 9-wire plug for 24v. This is a trick to pull off.

                            Why haven't they gotten into it? The batteries are expensive, also
                            require a much more expensive charger/regulator, and people are not
                            aware of how beneficial the LiFePO4 is to face the extra bill.
                            Additionally, the issues with fitting the regulator IN the battery are
                            significant.

                            Also the weight balance of the Robomower may be affected. Note the
                            front is weighed down by two huge steel "doughnuts". The back needs no
                            weight because of the lead-acid mass. If the battery case is filled
                            with LiFePO4 then there's much less mass over the wheels. That may lead
                            to the wheels slipping.

                            I have toyed around with putting together an LiFePO4, charge regulator,
                            and charger for the mower. Just waiting for the cell prices to get a
                            LITTLE more reasonable. In fact I'm holding off on buying more
                            lead-acid because of the idea.

                            Danny

                            Frans wrote:
                            > Now back to our little electric pet car: Robomow.
                            >
                            > Can anyone explain why Friendly Machines has not produced a LiFePO4 version yet. Of course the initial investment in batteries will be high, but reading the experiences here five battery refreshments over Robomow's lifetime is no exception. At fifty dollars per battery that is $500.- worth of batteries. I guess you could buy LiFePO4 for that and would it be impossible/difficult to adapt Robomow's software?
                            >
                            > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> Well, LiFePO4 will last for like 10 yrs.
                            >> Li-ion was awful in that its capacity was permanently degraded by
                            >> like15% per year (or more) if left at full charge at high temps. And
                            >> that wasn't even considering Texas-summer-type temps. Li-ion was also
                            >> not good at high-current surges, those could also degrade them.
                            >> LiFePO4 has none of these problems.
                            >>
                            >> You can potentially replace failed cells OK. But not open up a cell and
                            >> "fix" its plates of course.
                            >>
                            >> "Super-capacitors" were a fanciful technology promised by EE-Stor.
                            >> Unfortunately, it has never panned out. They have not been able to
                            >> demonstrate any working model of a capacitor of the density needed to
                            >> run a vehicle, of any size. Their initial patents were unusual in that
                            >> they documented actual weight and volumetric density, and production
                            >> costs. This was unusual because they had NOTHING to base that on
                            >> really, having no working model, so you might as well promise it'll also
                            >> put a camel through the eye of a needle. It was to get investors.
                            >>
                            >> Truth is, there ARE some incredible impressive capacitors now that
                            >> didn't exist 5 years ago, but none are even close to being able to power
                            >> a car for even a mile. I don't know anyone even proposing the idea
                            >> except EEStor.
                            >>
                            >> Danny
                            >>
                            >> Sporl wrote:
                            >>
                            >>> That's a great video.
                            >>>
                            >>> Hopefully in the near future batteries will become more reliable. I hate the fact that you basically throw them away (recycled) rather than having the ability to pull the components and replace with new. Heavy batteries means expensive transportation costs, expensive to recycle, and expensive to restock as new. I heard something like 9X% of lead acid batteries are built from recycled materials.
                            >>>
                            >>> Lithium lasts longer, have more power, but have the same net problem. They fail after X amount of time and are not serviceable.
                            >>>
                            >>> I bet super-capacitors will eventually win out.
                            >>>
                            >>> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>> Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                            >>>> garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
                            >>>> giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Check this out.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sporl
                            It s amazing to see so many different types of lithium batteries. I hope someone is able to standardize the materials to drive down costs, the main barrier to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 12, 2009
                              It's amazing to see so many different types of lithium batteries. I hope someone is able to standardize the materials to drive down costs, the main barrier to entry.
                              http://www.metaefficient.com/rechargeable-batteries/innovative-lifepo4-batteries-electric-vehicles.html

                              While I love my Rl500, it'll be a very long time before I buy an electric car. A battery shouldn't cost 1/2 as much as the product doing all the work. I can only imagine what it will cost to replace the Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf's battery pack. Yes, the battery will last 100,000 miles, but do you really want to sink +5K into a car with 100,000 miles (not including the joints, struts, shocks, tires, transmission, etc...? The battery packs aren't standardized so who knows if they'll even make a Volt battery 10 years from now. GM may not even be around.



                              --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Frans" <voorde@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Now back to our little electric pet car: Robomow.
                              >
                              > Can anyone explain why Friendly Machines has not produced a LiFePO4 version yet. Of course the initial investment in batteries will be high, but reading the experiences here five battery refreshments over Robomow's lifetime is no exception. At fifty dollars per battery that is $500.- worth of batteries. I guess you could buy LiFePO4 for that and would it be impossible/difficult to adapt Robomow's software?
                              >
                              > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Well, LiFePO4 will last for like 10 yrs.
                              > > Li-ion was awful in that its capacity was permanently degraded by
                              > > like15% per year (or more) if left at full charge at high temps. And
                              > > that wasn't even considering Texas-summer-type temps. Li-ion was also
                              > > not good at high-current surges, those could also degrade them.
                              > > LiFePO4 has none of these problems.
                              > >
                              > > You can potentially replace failed cells OK. But not open up a cell and
                              > > "fix" its plates of course.
                              > >
                              > > "Super-capacitors" were a fanciful technology promised by EE-Stor.
                              > > Unfortunately, it has never panned out. They have not been able to
                              > > demonstrate any working model of a capacitor of the density needed to
                              > > run a vehicle, of any size. Their initial patents were unusual in that
                              > > they documented actual weight and volumetric density, and production
                              > > costs. This was unusual because they had NOTHING to base that on
                              > > really, having no working model, so you might as well promise it'll also
                              > > put a camel through the eye of a needle. It was to get investors.
                              > >
                              > > Truth is, there ARE some incredible impressive capacitors now that
                              > > didn't exist 5 years ago, but none are even close to being able to power
                              > > a car for even a mile. I don't know anyone even proposing the idea
                              > > except EEStor.
                              > >
                              > > Danny
                              > >
                              > > Sporl wrote:
                              > > > That's a great video.
                              > > >
                              > > > Hopefully in the near future batteries will become more reliable. I hate the fact that you basically throw them away (recycled) rather than having the ability to pull the components and replace with new. Heavy batteries means expensive transportation costs, expensive to recycle, and expensive to restock as new. I heard something like 9X% of lead acid batteries are built from recycled materials.
                              > > >
                              > > > Lithium lasts longer, have more power, but have the same net problem. They fail after X amount of time and are not serviceable.
                              > > >
                              > > > I bet super-capacitors will eventually win out.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Neff" <edneff1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >> Really interesting and fun to watch: If a little guy in a home
                              > > >> garage can make this what are all the big car makers doing in all their
                              > > >> giant labs? What have all the Detroit automakers been doing?
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Check this out.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
                              > > >>
                              > > >>
                              > >
                              >
                            • Danny Miller
                              http://www.batteryspace.com/384v-768vlifepo4batterypacks.aspx Has a lot of big boy cells. They do have a pricey straight-fit replacement for the half-U1 s in
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 12, 2009
                                http://www.batteryspace.com/384v-768vlifepo4batterypacks.aspx

                                Has a lot of "big boy" cells.
                                They do have a pricey straight-fit replacement for the half-U1's in the
                                Robomower. However, they have no cell-by-cell protection circuit
                                onboard and no way to hook one up. They do offer a "protection circuit"
                                which is a whole-battery thing and that won't cut it. It's at great
                                risk of charge/discharge abuse and it's an expensive mistake.

                                +$5k won't do a good car now. 200KWH is about 115mi range, and that'll
                                run about $26k. It's entirely possible to buy a car with a blown engine
                                and simply toss the engine and swap for batts and a motor. Hint: people
                                prefer pre-airbag models. The airbag electronics are finicky and may be
                                integrated into the original computer which you'd be tossing out. No
                                manual describes the airbag electronics nor will any factory or
                                technician help alter the airbag system to work with an EV conversion.
                                In fact it's illegal to tamper with or alter an airbag system in any
                                way. Without working, unaltered airbags, it cannot be inspected in any
                                state.

                                Now consider this problem. A number of years back, someone described
                                the "Slack Factor" in high-tech purchases. Say you have a computing
                                task with a goal to meet 5 years in the future. Right now, it'll take 3
                                years. It may be to your benefit to NOT start now, but procrastinate
                                for 4 years to buy equipment and start. By then, the computers will be
                                3x faster and cost half as much. Being 3x faster, they'll get the job
                                done on time, meet the goal, and cost far less.

                                This could be a very REAL factor. If you plan on a 10-yr use, and won't
                                break even on gas for 6 years, well, what if the batteries become dirt
                                cheap, even obsolete in only 4 years? Kinda made it foolish to start
                                the 10-yr investment early on, didn't it?

                                Danny

                                Sporl wrote:
                                > It's amazing to see so many different types of lithium batteries. I hope someone is able to standardize the materials to drive down costs, the main barrier to entry.
                                > http://www.metaefficient.com/rechargeable-batteries/innovative-lifepo4-batteries-electric-vehicles.html
                                >
                                > While I love my Rl500, it'll be a very long time before I buy an electric car. A battery shouldn't cost 1/2 as much as the product doing all the work. I can only imagine what it will cost to replace the Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf's battery pack. Yes, the battery will last 100,000 miles, but do you really want to sink +5K into a car with 100,000 miles (not including the joints, struts, shocks, tires, transmission, etc...? The battery packs aren't standardized so who knows if they'll even make a Volt battery 10 years from now. GM may not even be around.
                                >
                                >
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