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Winter maintenance of EB20-12

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  • Robert Silva
    My original battery pack in mt RL-1000 lasted only a year. I neglected to charge it over the winter thinking it d be ok in my warm basement. It was still
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 15, 2008
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      My original battery pack in mt RL-1000 lasted only a year. I neglected
      to charge it over the winter thinking it'd be ok in my warm basement.
      It was still almost fully charged in the spring. Based on what I've
      read here, charging the original battery over the winter may not have
      increased it's life anyway. I digress...

      So now I have the EB20-12s. What is the most economical way to
      freshen-up the battery pack over the winter without using the RL-1000
      dock? I disassemble the dock and the power supply is difficult to
      bring into the house because the wire is routed through my shed.

      Can I use a regular 12v automotive charger on each individual cell if
      I disassemble the pack? This would just be used a couple times during
      the winter as Robomower recommends.
    • bkelley9401
      Not charging your batteries in the winter did not cause your batteries to fail if they were fully charged. AGM batteries have a long self life if fully charged
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 16, 2008
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        Not charging your batteries in the winter did not cause your batteries
        to fail if they were fully charged. AGM batteries have a long self life
        if fully charged when stored.
        Chances are the battery was bad to start with or was over charged at
        some point. FR needs to address these problems, if you have read the
        posts to this group short battery life is a problem. Using a 12v
        automotive charger may do more harm than good just to top charge a AGM
        battery.


        --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Silva" <rsilva275@...> wrote:
        >
        > My original battery pack in mt RL-1000 lasted only a year. I neglected
        > to charge it over the winter thinking it'd be ok in my warm basement.
        > It was still almost fully charged in the spring. Based on what I've
        > read here, charging the original battery over the winter may not have
        > increased it's life anyway. I digress...
        >
        > So now I have the EB20-12s. What is the most economical way to
        > freshen-up the battery pack over the winter without using the RL-1000
        > dock? I disassemble the dock and the power supply is difficult to
        > bring into the house because the wire is routed through my shed.
        >
        > Can I use a regular 12v automotive charger on each individual cell if
        > I disassemble the pack? This would just be used a couple times during
        > the winter as Robomower recommends.
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ben Sporl
        BKelly9401 - Which charger do your recommend other than keeping them in the mower? My old RL500 will burn the batteries to a melted crisp.
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 16, 2008
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          BKelly9401 -

          Which charger do your recommend other than keeping them in the mower? My old RL500 will burn the batteries to a melted crisp.




          ________________________________
          From: bkelley9401 <neverheardofhim@...>
          To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:19:10 AM
          Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Winter maintenance of EB20-12



          Not charging your batteries in the winter did not cause your batteries
          to fail if they were fully charged. AGM batteries have a long self life
          if fully charged when stored.
          Chances are the battery was bad to start with or was over charged at
          some point. FR needs to address these problems, if you have read the
          posts to this group short battery life is a problem. Using a 12v
          automotive charger may do more harm than good just to top charge a AGM
          battery.

          --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, "Robert Silva" <rsilva275@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > My original battery pack in mt RL-1000 lasted only a year. I neglected
          > to charge it over the winter thinking it'd be ok in my warm basement.
          > It was still almost fully charged in the spring. Based on what I've
          > read here, charging the original battery over the winter may not have
          > increased it's life anyway. I digress...
          >
          > So now I have the EB20-12s. What is the most economical way to
          > freshen-up the battery pack over the winter without using the RL-1000
          > dock? I disassemble the dock and the power supply is difficult to
          > bring into the house because the wire is routed through my shed.
          >
          > Can I use a regular 12v automotive charger on each individual cell if
          > I disassemble the pack? This would just be used a couple times during
          > the winter as Robomower recommends.
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Danny Miller
          Then your charger is defective. I like the external fast chargers. They seem to be designed by people who actually design battery chargers. From my
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 16, 2008
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            Then your charger is defective.
            I like the external "fast" chargers. They seem to be designed by people
            who actually design battery chargers.

            From my conversations with the battery engineers, the ~3A "fast"
            chargers do not constitute the "fast" that degrades batteries. It is
            much faster than the Robomower's internal charger but not fast as far as
            the battery's concerned. For these batts, more than 7A might be
            considered "fast" that could decrease the life of the battery but it
            depends on battery type and especially the temp at which it is charged.
            Cooler is better.

            A battery in proper working order will not run down much during a few
            months of storage, especially at low temperature. Leakage can be like
            10x lower at 60F than 100F. Sulfation results when it is stored for
            long periods when less than full charge, and the problem gets
            exponentially worse with lower charge states. That is, if you were to
            run the mower till the battery stopped then storing it for a week
            without charging would cause a serious sulfation problem.

            If you really feel you need to do something you can put it on the
            charger every couple of months of storage. It might need a little
            charging. But with say 90% charge still left, sulphation might slowly
            occur at 90F but it's gonna be really really slow at 60F.

            Freezing the electrolyte will destroy the battery. A fully charged
            battery will not freeze until phenomenally low temperatures not seen on
            Earth, but a completely run-down battery will freeze at temps not that
            far below 32F. But you're not going to be storing this at less than
            full charge anyways, and probably not going to leave them out in the
            snow either.

            If anybody asks "should I build a refrigerated compartment to store by
            batteries in?" the answer is "stop being obsessive about getting 10%
            more life off a $200 investment and get a life".

            Danny

            Ben Sporl wrote:
            > BKelly9401 -
            >
            > Which charger do your recommend other than keeping them in the mower? My old RL500 will burn the batteries to a melted crisp.
            >
            >
            >
          • Robert Silva
            Danny, Do you top off your batteries in the off season? Or are you saying I shouldn t bother? They ll be stored in my basement which is probably 60*F. ...
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 16, 2008
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              Danny,

              Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you saying I
              shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is probably
              60*F.


              On Nov 16, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Danny Miller wrote:

              > Then your charger is defective.
              > I like the external "fast" chargers. They seem to be designed by
              > people
              > who actually design battery chargers.
              >
              > From my conversations with the battery engineers, the ~3A "fast"
              > chargers do not constitute the "fast" that degrades batteries. It is
              > much faster than the Robomower's internal charger but not fast as
              > far as
              > the battery's concerned. For these batts, more than 7A might be
              > considered "fast" that could decrease the life of the battery but it
              > depends on battery type and especially the temp at which it is
              > charged.
              > Cooler is better.
              >
              > A battery in proper working order will not run down much during a few
              > months of storage, especially at low temperature. Leakage can be like
              > 10x lower at 60F than 100F. Sulfation results when it is stored for
              > long periods when less than full charge, and the problem gets
              > exponentially worse with lower charge states. That is, if you were to
              > run the mower till the battery stopped then storing it for a week
              > without charging would cause a serious sulfation problem.
              >
              > If you really feel you need to do something you can put it on the
              > charger every couple of months of storage. It might need a little
              > charging. But with say 90% charge still left, sulphation might slowly
              > occur at 90F but it's gonna be really really slow at 60F.
              >
              > Freezing the electrolyte will destroy the battery. A fully charged
              > battery will not freeze until phenomenally low temperatures not seen
              > on
              > Earth, but a completely run-down battery will freeze at temps not that
              > far below 32F. But you're not going to be storing this at less than
              > full charge anyways, and probably not going to leave them out in the
              > snow either.
              >
              > If anybody asks "should I build a refrigerated compartment to store by
              > batteries in?" the answer is "stop being obsessive about getting 10%
              > more life off a $200 investment and get a life".
              >
              > Danny
              >
              > Ben Sporl wrote:
              > > BKelly9401 -
              > >
              > > Which charger do your recommend other than keeping them in the
              > mower? My old RL500 will burn the batteries to a melted crisp.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Danny Miller
              Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed unless your off-season is REALLY long. What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 16, 2008
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                Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed unless
                your off-season is REALLY long.

                What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have a finite
                life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't do much
                to extend them over what you get by following the "basic" instructions.
                I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment but
                they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good with care
                it could last forever.

                And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type and age.
                For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10 months at
                room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.

                Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like clockwork and
                the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6 months will
                probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.

                The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off season, or
                leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's off.
                Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact float
                voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee it won't
                overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the charger
                itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing to do
                with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery doesn't
                even need it.

                Danny

                Robert Silva wrote:
                > Danny,
                >
                > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you saying I
                > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is probably
                > 60*F.
                >
              • Ben
                I ve heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement floor is also bad. -Ben ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
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                  I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement floor is
                  also bad.
                  -Ben


                  On 11/16/08, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed unless
                  > your off-season is REALLY long.
                  >
                  > What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have a finite
                  > life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't do much
                  > to extend them over what you get by following the "basic" instructions.
                  > I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment but
                  > they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good with care
                  > it could last forever.
                  >
                  > And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                  > self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type and age.
                  > For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10 months at
                  > room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.
                  >
                  > Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like clockwork and
                  > the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6 months will
                  > probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.
                  >
                  > The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off season, or
                  > leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's off.
                  > Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact float
                  > voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee it won't
                  > overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the charger
                  > itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing to do
                  > with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery doesn't
                  > even need it.
                  >
                  > Danny
                  >
                  > Robert Silva wrote:
                  > > Danny,
                  > >
                  > > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you saying I
                  > > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is probably
                  > > 60*F.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bob and Barbara
                  Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long time ago that that is an old wifes tale and has no effect on the newer battery cases.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
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                    Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long
                    time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                    newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery cases
                    which were made from a much different composition than those of
                    today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the case
                    to the cement floor and the battery discharged.

                    Anybody?

                    Bob



                    --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben <benj@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement
                    floor is
                    > also bad.
                    > -Ben
                    >
                    >
                    > On 11/16/08, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed
                    unless
                    > > your off-season is REALLY long.
                    > >
                    > > What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have a
                    finite
                    > > life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't do
                    much
                    > > to extend them over what you get by following the "basic"
                    instructions.
                    > > I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment
                    but
                    > > they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good
                    with care
                    > > it could last forever.
                    > >
                    > > And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                    > > self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type
                    and age.
                    > > For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10
                    months at
                    > > room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.
                    > >
                    > > Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like
                    clockwork and
                    > > the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6
                    months will
                    > > probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.
                    > >
                    > > The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off
                    season, or
                    > > leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's
                    off.
                    > > Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact
                    float
                    > > voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee it
                    won't
                    > > overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the
                    charger
                    > > itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing to
                    do
                    > > with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery
                    doesn't
                    > > even need it.
                    > >
                    > > Danny
                    > >
                    > > Robert Silva wrote:
                    > > > Danny,
                    > > >
                    > > > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you
                    saying I
                    > > > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is
                    probably
                    > > > 60*F.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Season Ticket
                    Why is there all this talk of battery storage?  What s the point when you just have to pull it out every two weeks to mow the lawn? Dave in Livermore, CA.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
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                      Why is there all this talk of battery storage?  What's the point when you just have to pull it out every two weeks to mow the lawn?
                      Dave in Livermore, CA.




                      ________________________________
                      From: Bob and Barbara <eventtravelers@...>
                      To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:55:35 AM
                      Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Winter maintenance of EB20-12


                      Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long
                      time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                      newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery cases
                      which were made from a much different composition than those of
                      today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the case
                      to the cement floor and the battery discharged.

                      Anybody?

                      Bob

                      --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, Ben <benj@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement
                      floor is
                      > also bad.
                      > -Ben
                      >
                      >
                      > On 11/16/08, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed
                      unless
                      > > your off-season is REALLY long.
                      > >
                      > > What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have a
                      finite
                      > > life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't do
                      much
                      > > to extend them over what you get by following the "basic"
                      instructions.
                      > > I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment
                      but
                      > > they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good
                      with care
                      > > it could last forever.
                      > >
                      > > And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                      > > self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type
                      and age.
                      > > For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10
                      months at
                      > > room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.
                      > >
                      > > Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like
                      clockwork and
                      > > the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6
                      months will
                      > > probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.
                      > >
                      > > The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off
                      season, or
                      > > leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's
                      off.
                      > > Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact
                      float
                      > > voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee it
                      won't
                      > > overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the
                      charger
                      > > itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing to
                      do
                      > > with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery
                      doesn't
                      > > even need it.
                      > >
                      > > Danny
                      > >
                      > > Robert Silva wrote:
                      > > > Danny,
                      > > >
                      > > > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you
                      saying I
                      > > > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is
                      probably
                      > > > 60*F.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert Silva
                      What s the point in mowing the lawn if it stops growing between October and May? ;) -Bob in NH On Nov 17, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Season Ticket
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
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                        What's the point in mowing the lawn if it stops growing between October and May? ;)

                        -Bob in NH

                        On Nov 17, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Season Ticket <drsudz@...> wrote:

                        Why is there all this talk of battery storage? What's the point when you just have to pull it out every two weeks to mow the lawn?
                        Dave in Livermore, CA.

                        ________________________________
                        From: Bob and Barbara <eventtravelers@...>
                        To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:55:35 AM
                        Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Winter maintenance of EB20-12

                        Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long
                        time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                        newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery cases
                        which were made from a much different composition than those of
                        today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the case
                        to the cement floor and the battery discharged.

                        Anybody?

                        Bob

                        --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, Ben <benj@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement
                        floor is
                        > also bad.
                        > -Ben
                        >
                        >
                        > On 11/16/08, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed
                        unless
                        > > your off-season is REALLY long.
                        > >
                        > > What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have a
                        finite
                        > > life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't do
                        much
                        > > to extend them over what you get by following the "basic"
                        instructions.
                        > > I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment
                        but
                        > > they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good
                        with care
                        > > it could last forever.
                        > >
                        > > And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                        > > self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type
                        and age.
                        > > For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10
                        months at
                        > > room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.
                        > >
                        > > Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like
                        clockwork and
                        > > the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6
                        months will
                        > > probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.
                        > >
                        > > The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off
                        season, or
                        > > leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's
                        off.
                        > > Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact
                        float
                        > > voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee it
                        won't
                        > > overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the
                        charger
                        > > itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing to
                        do
                        > > with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery
                        doesn't
                        > > even need it.
                        > >
                        > > Danny
                        > >
                        > > Robert Silva wrote:
                        > > > Danny,
                        > > >
                        > > > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you
                        saying I
                        > > > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is
                        probably
                        > > > 60*F.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Danny Miller
                        It s an urban legend. They say it was from the old days when battery cases were made of wood and leaked slightly... well, first off AFAIK they only used glass
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          It's an urban legend. They say it was from the old days when battery
                          cases were made of wood and leaked slightly... well, first off AFAIK
                          they only used glass or metal (like flashlight batteries) cases in
                          production, wood being highly vulnerable to the acid or alkaline
                          electrolyte as well as fluid leakage so that would be dumb. I assume
                          bakelite would probably not have been used either. Actually I got kinda
                          curious as to how old batteries were constructed but there's not a lot
                          of evidence left. Patents often list just a "container". Not many
                          antique batteries survive of course and if a wooden one were made /then/
                          it certainly wouldn't be intact /now/.

                          Plus there's no conductivity on a cement floor to drain the charge even
                          if it wet its own exterior with conductive electrolyte. If it did that,
                          then it would already be shorting itself out across the top, sides, and
                          bottom without the flooring entering the picture. Second, if that were
                          the case, then the warning should be NOT to put it on a metal shelf
                          since the sweating electrolyte would eat through it.

                          So nobody really seems to have a viable explanation of where that came
                          from. The bottom line remains that it's not applicable to us, of course.

                          Danny

                          Bob and Barbara wrote:
                          > Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long
                          > time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                          > newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery cases
                          > which were made from a much different composition than those of
                          > today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the case
                          > to the cement floor and the battery discharged.
                          >
                          > Anybody?
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben <benj@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement
                          >>
                          > floor is
                          >
                          >> also bad.
                          >> -Ben
                          >>
                        • Robert Silva
                          My guess is that old batteries would discharge in storage regardless of what surface they were left on. Most of them probably were left on concrete shop floors
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            My guess is that old batteries would discharge in storage regardless of what surface they were left on. Most of them probably were left on concrete shop floors because of their weight. Folks probaby just assumed it was the concrete.

                            -Bob

                            On Nov 17, 2008, at 2:59 PM, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:

                            It's an urban legend. They say it was from the old days when battery
                            cases were made of wood and leaked slightly... well, first off AFAIK
                            they only used glass or metal (like flashlight batteries) cases in
                            production, wood being highly vulnerable to the acid or alkaline
                            electrolyte as well as fluid leakage so that would be dumb. I assume
                            bakelite would probably not have been used either. Actually I got kinda
                            curious as to how old batteries were constructed but there's not a lot
                            of evidence left. Patents often list just a "container". Not many
                            antique batteries survive of course and if a wooden one were made /then/
                            it certainly wouldn't be intact /now/.

                            Plus there's no conductivity on a cement floor to drain the charge even
                            if it wet its own exterior with conductive electrolyte. If it did that,
                            then it would already be shorting itself out across the top, sides, and
                            bottom without the flooring entering the picture. Second, if that were
                            the case, then the warning should be NOT to put it on a metal shelf
                            since the sweating electrolyte would eat through it.

                            So nobody really seems to have a viable explanation of where that came
                            from. The bottom line remains that it's not applicable to us, of course.

                            Danny

                            Bob and Barbara wrote:
                            > Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a long
                            > time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                            > newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery cases
                            > which were made from a much different composition than those of
                            > today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the case
                            > to the cement floor and the battery discharged.
                            >
                            > Anybody?
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben <benj@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a cement
                            >>
                            > floor is
                            >
                            >> also bad.
                            >> -Ben
                            >>




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bob and Barbara
                            Why? #1- Because my grass takes a break from growing...Gets Lazy this time of year for several months... #2- Robos make a lousy snow plow!! LOL Bob in Northern
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 17, 2008
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                              Why?

                              #1- Because my grass takes a break from growing...Gets Lazy this time
                              of year for several months...

                              #2- Robos make a lousy snow plow!! LOL

                              Bob in Northern Virginia



                              --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Season Ticket <drsudz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Why is there all this talk of battery storage?  What's the point
                              when you just have to pull it out every two weeks to mow the lawn?
                              > Dave in Livermore, CA.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Bob and Barbara <eventtravelers@...>
                              > To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:55:35 AM
                              > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Winter maintenance of EB20-12
                              >
                              >
                              > Although I still store my batteries on a wooden board, I heard a
                              long
                              > time ago that that is an "old wifes tale" and has no effect on the
                              > newer battery cases. That apparently was for old style battery
                              cases
                              > which were made from a much different composition than those of
                              > today. It was thought that the charge somehow leaked through the
                              case
                              > to the cement floor and the battery discharged.
                              >
                              > Anybody?
                              >
                              > Bob
                              >
                              > --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, Ben <benj@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I've heard that long term storage of a battery directly on a
                              cement
                              > floor is
                              > > also bad.
                              > > -Ben
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On 11/16/08, Danny Miller <dannym@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Giving it a refresher charge is kind of unlikely to be needed
                              > unless
                              > > > your off-season is REALLY long.
                              > > >
                              > > > What probably needs to be said is that these batteries do have
                              a
                              > finite
                              > > > life no matter what you do and all the care in the world won't
                              do
                              > much
                              > > > to extend them over what you get by following the "basic"
                              > instructions.
                              > > > I know there's a tendency to obsess here over battery treatment
                              > but
                              > > > they're not going to be like a car where if you're really good
                              > with care
                              > > > it could last forever.
                              > > >
                              > > > And it's hard to say. Batteries experience different rates of
                              > > > self-discharge based not only on the temp but the battery type
                              > and age.
                              > > > For reference, the RECOMMENDED shelf life of AGM-type is 8-10
                              > months at
                              > > > room temp before recharging. That's what the mfg usually says.
                              > > >
                              > > > Most likely the guy who charges them up every month like
                              > clockwork and
                              > > > the guy who leaves them in room temp storage or below for 6
                              > months will
                              > > > probably see no difference in total lifespan or performance.
                              > > >
                              > > > The only no-no is leaving them on the charger during the off
                              > season, or
                              > > > leaving them in the mower which will run them down even if it's
                              > off.
                              > > > Chargers which slowly overcharge are very common and the exact
                              > float
                              > > > voltage has to be adjusted for battery temp to truly guarantee
                              it
                              > won't
                              > > > overcharge (and chargers often don't include this because the
                              > charger
                              > > > itself gets hot and any on-board temp sensor will have nothing
                              to
                              > do
                              > > > with batt temp) so it's just a bad idea seeing as the battery
                              > doesn't
                              > > > even need it.
                              > > >
                              > > > Danny
                              > > >
                              > > > Robert Silva wrote:
                              > > > > Danny,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Do you "top off" your batteries in the off season? Or are you
                              > saying I
                              > > > > shouldn't bother? They'll be stored in my basement which is
                              > probably
                              > > > > 60*F.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • IggyKC@gmail.com
                              What s the point in mowing the lawn if it stops growing between October and May? ;) -Bob in NH Kansas City grass is virtually dormant now. I mowed last
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 19, 2008
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                                What's the point in mowing the lawn if it stops growing between October and
                                May? ;)
                                -Bob in NH


                                Kansas City grass is virtually dormant now. I mowed last weekend, but had
                                not done it in 2 weeks before. I am actually talking to a Lutheran Church in
                                Kansas City now about coming over to my house and seeing how the mower is
                                working. I'll mow again maybe 1-2 times this season to mulch up leaves and
                                I'd like to show them how it works.

                                I will also e-mail them about other commercial mowers available. In spring
                                they'll be bidding out the maintenance of their property and I think they'll
                                need a commercial mower for the size of the property they have. I am also
                                sure they'll be concerned about safety as they have child care, but it is
                                behind tall wire fence, so it should be safe, however the front of the
                                property can be exposed to public street (not a main city street, more of a
                                subdivision cut through, but still)

                                As atheists we've been coming to their environmental group meetings monthly
                                and have had a great time talking about different technologies, cleaning up
                                parks and creeks in spring as a joint event. We've also all snicked at
                                Baptists and their imminent Rapture :o) Lutherans are having a good time
                                over that with us godless heathens :o)

                                We are also talking about setting up a Bible study with a Baptist church.
                                The minster of that church clearly believes in Rapture and doesn't care too
                                much about environment when I talked to him, yet drives a motor scooter to
                                church. When asked, he says it's to save money not to save the environment.
                                I did not talk to him about a robotic mower yet - but saving money should
                                catch his attention.

                                IGGY


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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