Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

French Calvery Traveling Forge

Expand Messages
  • Thomas Cook
    Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have any idea where
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any
      of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have
      any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I have
      sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
      seeking information with no response.

      Thanks,

      Tom
    • waltermmac
      Tom, I ve seen a sketch of one somewhere, but don t remember where, possibly in Roundshot & Rammers by Harold Peterson. You can get it from South Bend
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Tom,

        I've seen a sketch of one somewhere, but don't remember where,
        possibly in Roundshot & Rammers by Harold Peterson. You can get it
        from South Bend Replicas
        http://www.specialtymile.com/southbendreplicas/page16d.htm

        But Mueller's Treatise of Artillery 1780, he say that the French
        forges had 4 wheels instead of one the two wheeled forges of the
        British. If I recall correctly, he complains that the Brits should
        adopt the French type because the Crown version is quite unstable even
        with the support legs down.

        Hope this helps.

        Walter M. McIntyre
        wmcintyre2@...
        Col. Locke's Militia Co./Kingsbury's NC Artillery Co.
        www.angelfire.com/nc/Lockes
        The Carolina Brigade
        www.carolinabrigade.org

        It is impossible to carry on a war without oppressing the inhabitants
        in some degree; and however disagreeable
        and inconvenient it may be to the people, and to those in power, a
        regard to the common good and general safety
        will justify the measure.



        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Cook" <medic19440@...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought
        any
        > of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone
        have
        > any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I have
        > sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
        > seeking information with no response.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Tom
        >
      • robertaselig
        Salut -- I doubt that they brought any forges of their own. Both the Wadsworth Papers as well as the Pickering Papers show that the French rented or leased
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Salut --

          I doubt that they brought any forges of their own. Both the Wadsworth
          Papers as well as the Pickering Papers show that the French rented or
          leased traveling forges from the Continental Army.

          When I was in France this April I looked for descriptions and/or images
          of forges in the French army archives but couldn't find anything. But
          then again, that was not my main purpose for being there.

          I have an image of what something like that looked like in the
          Napoleonic era
          if that helps.

          Bob
          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Cook" <medic19440@...> wrote:
          >
          > Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought
          any of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone
          have any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I
          have sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
          seeking information with no response.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Tom
        • michael hurley
          If you know how to get in touch with a Jim Hoffman he has a traveling forge that I think is French and that he built as I recall. Thomas Cook
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            If you know how to get in touch with a Jim Hoffman he has a traveling forge that I think is French and that he built as I recall.



            Thomas Cook <medic19440@...> wrote:
            Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any
            of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have
            any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I have
            sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
            seeking information with no response.

            Thanks,

            Tom






            ---------------------------------
            Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Paul Hutchins
            I just saw Jymm at Cooches Bridge. I wasnt able to find a website for Jymm but I did find some images of him with his forge, but not much detail
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I just saw Jymm at Cooches Bridge.

              I wasnt able to find a website for Jymm but I did find some images of him with his forge, but not much detail

              http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1694/ppuser/741

              Hope this helps.

              Cheers,

              Paul

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: michael hurley
              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:39 AM
              Subject: Re: [Revlist] French Calvery Traveling Forge


              If you know how to get in touch with a Jim Hoffman he has a traveling forge that I think is French and that he built as I recall.



              Thomas Cook <medic19440@...> wrote:
              Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any
              of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have
              any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I have
              sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
              seeking information with no response.

              Thanks,

              Tom

              ---------------------------------
              Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James B
              If you go to Fort Ligonier s website, they have a great shot of their Forge in the Artillery or Wagon section.
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                If you go to Fort Ligonier's website, they have a great shot of their
                Forge in the Artillery or Wagon section.
                ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

                >
              • James A. Hoffman
                I also posted one we did for Ft. Ligonier on this site under artillery at Ligonier. Both are directly from Muller which is English. Muller refers to the French
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I also posted one we did for Ft. Ligonier on this site under
                  artillery at Ligonier. Both are directly from Muller which is
                  English. Muller refers to the French model having 4 wheels instead
                  of 2. I have not personally seen any good documentation for the
                  French pattern. I have seen a couple of models/miniatures, but no
                  good documentation. The reprint of Smiths/Tousard is no help either.
                  However, try contacting Paul Ackerman at West Point's Museum to see
                  if he can help.
                  If you do attempt something, please do not cheap out and scale it
                  down. These things are hard enough to document. The wheels will be
                  the expensive part, especially correctly made French pattern wheels.
                  Feel free to contact me for any other info.

                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Paul Hutchins <phutchins04@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I just saw Jymm at Cooches Bridge.
                  >
                  > I wasnt able to find a website for Jymm but I did find some images
                  of him with his forge, but not much detail
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1694/ppuser/741
                  >
                  > Hope this helps.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: michael hurley
                  > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:39 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Revlist] French Calvery Traveling Forge
                  >
                  >
                  > If you know how to get in touch with a Jim Hoffman he has a
                  traveling forge that I think is French and that he built as I recall.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thomas Cook <medic19440@...> wrote:
                  > Does anyone have any information on whether the French had
                  brought any
                  > of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone
                  have
                  > any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? I
                  have
                  > sent numerous emails to the French Army as well as to Louisbourg
                  > seeking information with no response.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • avalonf@bcpl.net
                  That of course would be the work of the previously mentioned Jymm Hoffman, blacksmith extraordinaire. -- John White Avalon Forge Baltimore All Manner of
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    That of course would be the work of the previously mentioned Jymm
                    Hoffman, blacksmith extraordinaire.

                    --
                    John White
                    Avalon Forge
                    Baltimore
                    "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
                    http://www.avalonforge.com






                    James B wrote:
                    >
                    > If you go to Fort Ligonier's website, they have a great shot of their
                    > Forge in the Artillery or Wagon section.
                    > ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • Glenn Williams
                    Dear Friends and Fellow Historians, For those who have not seen it, here are two images of the replica British travelling forge displayed at Fort Ligonier.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Friends and Fellow Historians,

                      For those who have not seen it, here are two images of the replica British travelling forge displayed at Fort Ligonier.

                      Best Regards,

                      Glenn

                      avalonf@... wrote:
                      That of course would be the work of the previously mentioned Jymm
                      Hoffman, blacksmith extraordinaire.

                      --
                      John White
                      Avalon Forge
                      Baltimore
                      "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
                      http://www.avalonforge.com

                      James B wrote:
                      >
                      > If you go to Fort Ligonier's website, they have a great shot of their
                      > Forge in the Artillery or Wagon section.
                      > ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >






                      ---------------------------------
                      Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jay Callaham
                      Glenn, Those photos either need to be added to a file in the Photos section of the YahooGroups website or simply provide a link to them at Ligonier (preferably
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Glenn,

                        Those photos either need to be added to a file in the Photos section of the YahooGroups website or simply provide a link to them at Ligonier (preferably using Tinyurl.com to reduce the size).

                        This list is set up to strip attachments, so the attached photos didn't make it - and won't. That is for SPAM and Virus/Trojan protection and was established many years ago.

                        Thanks for trying.

                        Jay
                        Coldm Regt
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Glenn Williams
                        To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:31 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: French (that's CAVALRY, dammit!) Traveling Forge


                        Dear Friends and Fellow Historians,

                        For those who have not seen it, here are two images of the replica British travelling forge displayed at Fort Ligonier.

                        Best Regards,

                        Glenn


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • d_einhorn
                        As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought over any Traveling Forges. As to the second part of your question: I have posted
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 9, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought over any Traveling Forges.

                          As to the second part of your question: I have posted copies of old drawings of 1) a two wheeled French military forge cart type Traveling Forge, and 2) the later four wheeled French Traveling Forge. If you are specific in what version you want, I will try to provide any further drawings and/or information that I can dig up from my research material.

                          Please note: Military Traveling Forges from this and later periods were horse carts or wagons... not hand carts.

                          Best wishes,
                          Dave Einhorn, author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"

                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Cook" <medic19440@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any
                          > of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have
                          > any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? ....
                          > Tom
                          >
                        • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
                          H Dave, It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            H Dave,

                            It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                            specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                            horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                            army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?

                            Thanks,
                            John

                            John M. Johnston
                            There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.


                            Dave opines:

                            As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                            over any Traveling Forges.





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • d_einhorn
                            John, Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships?
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John,

                              Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships? Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?

                              An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with, irreplaceable iron items, or wood?

                              I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or built the rest here.

                              The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                              of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling Forges"

                              Best wishes,
                              Dave Einhorn
                              author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"


                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                              >
                              > H Dave,
                              >
                              > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                              > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                              > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                              > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > John
                              >
                              > John M. Johnston
                              > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                              >
                              >
                              > Dave opines:
                              >
                              > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                              > over any Traveling Forges.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • d_einhorn
                              A lot could be written on this subject. I forgot to mention that you really only need a wheeled forge if your army is on the move, *and* has a significant
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                A lot could be written on this subject. I forgot to mention that you really only need a wheeled forge if your army is on the move, *and* has a significant number of horses. You can get horses shod in nearby towns, and you could even use an open bonfire to shoe a horse or so. Also if you are in a siege situation, references show the tendency to knock together stationary wooden forges. Mobile forges are for mobile armies with significant horse drawn equipment. For armies mostly staying in one area or occupying a town are you really going to spend the time to put the forge(s) on wheels?

                                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > John,
                                >
                                > Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships?
                                >
                              • Sgt42rhr
                                This is an interesting question. I wonder if we know from primary documents how the British army handled this? I know that common sense is not always a useful
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  This is an interesting question. I wonder if we know from primary documents how the British army handled this?
                                  I know that common sense is not always a useful metric when judging behavior exhibited a couple of hundred years ago.

                                  Cheers,
                                  John

                                  John M. Johnston
                                  “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

                                  On Dec 10, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > John,
                                  >
                                  > Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships? Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?
                                  >
                                  > An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with, irreplaceable iron items, or wood?
                                  >
                                  > I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or built the rest here.
                                  >
                                  > The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                                  > of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling Forges"
                                  >
                                  > Best wishes,
                                  > Dave Einhorn
                                  > author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"
                                  >
                                  > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > H Dave,
                                  > >
                                  > > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                                  > > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                                  > > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                                  > > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks,
                                  > > John
                                  > >
                                  > > John M. Johnston
                                  > > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Dave opines:
                                  > >
                                  > > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                                  > > over any Traveling Forges.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • d_einhorn
                                  Excellent, I look forward to hearing the result of your researches. I would also like to know: - the number of horses and cannons assigned to each French and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Excellent, I look forward to hearing the result of your researches.

                                    I would also like to know:
                                    - the number of horses and cannons assigned to each French and British independent and dependent military group.
                                    - which forces British and French were primarily mobile,that is not working from a base of operations, and which military groups were working from a base of operations.
                                    - I would also like to know the freight capacity of the ships used by the French and British to transport military supplies to their forces in the colonies in the New England area.

                                    I look forward to reading the result of your researches,
                                    Best wishes as always,
                                    Dave E.

                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42rhr <Sgt42RHR@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > This is an interesting question. I wonder if we know from primary documents how the British army handled this?
                                    > I know that common sense is not always a useful metric when judging behavior exhibited a couple of hundred years ago.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > John
                                    >
                                    > John M. Johnston
                                    > “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.
                                    >
                                    > On Dec 10, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > John,
                                    > >
                                    > > Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships? Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?
                                    > >
                                    > > An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with, irreplaceable iron items, or wood?
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or built the rest here.
                                    > >
                                    > > The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                                    > > of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling Forges"
                                    > >
                                    > > Best wishes,
                                    > > Dave Einhorn
                                    > > author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@ wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > H Dave,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                                    > > > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                                    > > > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                                    > > > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thanks,
                                    > > > John
                                    > > >
                                    > > > John M. Johnston
                                    > > > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Dave opines:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                                    > > > over any Traveling Forges.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • John
                                    I don t know the answers to your questions on French army vehicles being brought over, but do know that 300 four-horse wagons were brought to America in the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 10, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I don't know the answers to your questions on French army vehicles being brought over, but do know that 300 four-horse wagons were brought to America in the spring of 1776 for the use of British forces. These were large English wagons, eventually found to be too heavy and unsuited for a campaigning army (for a detailed discussion, see "`The road appeared to be full of red Coats …': The Battle of Millstone, 20 January 1777: An Episode in the Forage War," Military Collector & Historian, vol. 62, no. 1 (Spring 2010), 24-35. http://revwar75.com/library/rees/pdfs/millstone.pdf )
                                      So heavy wagons were carried overseas by the British.If you wish to see vehicle allotment check out page 188 of Edward Curtis's "The British Army in the American Revolution," showing a wagon return for Howe's army between 1 April and 30 June 1777 (no forges listed, but they likely had them).
                                      Concerning French, I do know that in 1780 the Americans made some ammunition wagons for the French, which were sent to them in September 1780:
                                      249
                                      John Mitchell, DQMG, to Isaac Lyle, wagonmaster, 2 September 1780, Philadelphia, "You being W.M. to a Brigade of Ten Amunition Waggons the Property of His most Christian Majesty you are to take them under your Command and ... proceed on to Rhoad Island ..."
                                      Pennsylvania Archives, 6th series, vol. XIV (Harrisburg, Pa.).

                                      Also, the following note says something about the wagons the French were using, though it's not known whether they were procured in New England or brought from France:
                                      Timothy Pickering to Hugh Hughes, 11 August 1781, "Count Chastellux wants exceedingly a good close covered waggon (The French have no good ones) that opens with hinges on the sides. I beg you to have a good substantial one immediately put in complete repair, well covered & painted yellow (for this colour I believe will please better than red)"
                                      Timothy Pickering to Hugh Hughes, 11 August 1781, Numbered Record Books Concerning Military Operations and Service, Pay and Settlement Accounts, and Supplies in the War Department Collection of Revolutionary War Records, Record Group 93, National Archives Microfilm Publication M853 (Washington, D.C., 1973), vol. 82, target 3, reel 26, p. 77 (hereafter cited as Nod. Record Books, NA).

                                      As for traveling forges, in 1778, on the Monmouth Campaign, the Washington's army had 1 traveling forge with the NC Brigade and 2 traveling forges with the arificers. A "Return of Waggons, Horses … &c the property of the United States Army – Camp Tappan – 27th September 1780" shows 10 traveling forges (2 with the artillery park, and 1 for each of the infantry brigades, including the light infantry corps.

                                      So, in the end, it is entirely possible the traveling forges used by the French were manufactured for them in America. One person who likely knows for certain is Robert A. Selig, who may be monitoring this discussion.

                                      Cheers,

                                      John Rees
                                      www.revwar75.com/library/rees/

                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Excellent, I look forward to hearing the result of your researches.
                                      >
                                      > I would also like to know:
                                      > - the number of horses and cannons assigned to each French and British independent and dependent military group.
                                      > - which forces British and French were primarily mobile,that is not working from a base of operations, and which military groups were working from a base of operations.
                                      > - I would also like to know the freight capacity of the ships used by the French and British to transport military supplies to their forces in the colonies in the New England area.
                                      >
                                      > I look forward to reading the result of your researches,
                                      > Best wishes as always,
                                      > Dave E.
                                      >
                                      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42rhr <Sgt42RHR@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > This is an interesting question. I wonder if we know from primary documents how the British army handled this?
                                      > > I know that common sense is not always a useful metric when judging behavior exhibited a couple of hundred years ago.
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers,
                                      > > John
                                      > >
                                      > > John M. Johnston
                                      > > “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.
                                      > >
                                      > > On Dec 10, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > John,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships? Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with, irreplaceable iron items, or wood?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or built the rest here.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                                      > > > of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling Forges"
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Best wishes,
                                      > > > Dave Einhorn
                                      > > > author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@ wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > H Dave,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                                      > > > > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be pulled by
                                      > > > > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                                      > > > > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Thanks,
                                      > > > > John
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > John M. Johnston
                                      > > > > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Dave opines:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                                      > > > > over any Traveling Forges.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • dkeas
                                      1. Any army would NEED forges. 2. Bring over at least the metal parts of forges. 3. I would think they probably had enough ships to bring anything they needed,
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 13, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        1. Any army would NEED forges.
                                        2. Bring over at least the metal parts of forges.
                                        3. I would think they probably had enough ships to bring anything they
                                        needed, even wooden parts of forges if they thought they might need them
                                        immediately.
                                        4. Correct or not?



                                        From: d_einhorn <d_einhorn@...>
                                        Reply-To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:52:23 -0000
                                        To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [Revlist] Re: French Calvery Traveling Forge








                                        John,

                                        Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would
                                        you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships?
                                        Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you
                                        could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill
                                        the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult
                                        if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?

                                        An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together
                                        carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet
                                        and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not
                                        transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given
                                        limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with,
                                        irreplaceable iron items, or wood?

                                        I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought
                                        over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or
                                        built the rest here.

                                        The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                                        of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling
                                        Forges"

                                        Best wishes,
                                        Dave Einhorn
                                        author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"

                                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                        Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > H Dave,
                                        >
                                        > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                                        > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be
                                        pulled by
                                        > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                                        > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > John
                                        >
                                        > John M. Johnston
                                        > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Dave opines:
                                        >
                                        > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                                        > over any Traveling Forges.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • d_einhorn
                                        ... My reply: I never said they didn t. As a matter of fact I think I said or at least implied that they did. ... My reply: No argument there. The original
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 14, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, dkeas <dkeas@...> wrote:
                                          > 1. Any army would NEED forges.
                                          My reply: I never said they didn't. As a matter of fact I think I said or at least implied that they did.

                                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, dkeas <dkeas@...> wrote:
                                          > 2. Bring over at least the metal parts of forges.
                                          My reply: No argument there. The original question, as I understand it, was whether they brought over completed wheeled traveling forges.


                                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, dkeas <dkeas@...> wrote:
                                          > 3. I would think they probably had enough ships to bring anything they needed, even wooden parts of forges if they thought they might need them immediately.
                                          My reply: 1) all the ships had forges for repair 2) a camp fire can work as a heat source, it is still done that way today for putting tires on wheels. I have done it that way. 3) for most of recorded history temporary wood-box type forges have been used by various armies. Simply grab or make a box, poke a hole in the side, throw some dirt on the bottom of the box, and stick a bellows nozzle through the hole. 4) Sherman's army proved that a large army could function without wheeled forges, his army only used quick-and-dirty wooden box forges.


                                          > 4. Correct or not?
                                          My answer: Without collaborating evidence, we can so far only speculate.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: d_einhorn <d_einhorn@...>
                                          > Reply-To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:52:23 -0000
                                          > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: [Revlist] Re: French Calvery Traveling Forge
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > John,
                                          >
                                          > Good question. I refer to the old saying form follows function. What would
                                          > you bring over with you given limited space and weight limits on ships?
                                          > Would you fill the ship(s) with wooden carriages and other supplies that you
                                          > could build and/or acquire on this side of the Atlantic, or would you fill
                                          > the ships instead with cannon tubes and other items that would be difficult
                                          > if not impossible to acquire and/or build on this side of the Atlantic?
                                          >
                                          > An army that specializes in Siege craft could fairly easily put together
                                          > carriages and forge wagons. I might point out for example that trebuchet
                                          > and other equipment used for siege in history were built on-site, and not
                                          > transported cross country. Wood was readily available in the U.S., so given
                                          > limited space on your ship(s), what would you fill your limited space with,
                                          > irreplaceable iron items, or wood?
                                          >
                                          > I'm not saying they did without, just that they would likely have brought
                                          > over what was difficult or impossible to acquire here, and then acquired or
                                          > built the rest here.
                                          >
                                          > The original question, was "whether the French had brought any
                                          > of their traveling forges" not whether the French had or used Traveling
                                          > Forges"
                                          >
                                          > Best wishes,
                                          > Dave Einhorn
                                          > author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"
                                          >
                                          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                          > Sgt42RHR@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > H Dave,
                                          > >
                                          > > It seems hard to imagine that an entire French army (and one that
                                          > > specialized in siege craft) would be landed without forges that would be
                                          > pulled by
                                          > > horses or oxen. Could you talk some more about why you think the French
                                          > > army would not have brought forges pulled by horses?
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks,
                                          > > John
                                          > >
                                          > > John M. Johnston
                                          > > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dave opines:
                                          > >
                                          > > As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought
                                          > > over any Traveling Forges.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • mbrmanning2
                                          ... While not French, the v. Pausch s journal makes it clear that they Hesse-Hanau Artillery Company transported not only their guns and limbers but wagon and
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 15, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, dkeas <dkeas@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > 1. Any army would NEED forges.
                                            > 2. Bring over at least the metal parts of forges.
                                            > 3. I would think they probably had enough ships to bring anything they
                                            > needed, even wooden parts of forges if they thought they might need them
                                            > immediately.
                                            > 4. Correct or not?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            While not French, the v. Pausch's journal makes it clear that they Hesse-Hanau Artillery Company transported not only their guns and limbers but wagon and carts as well.

                                            He wrote about his departure for Quebec:

                                            "My six cannon, gun-carriages, boxes, chests, two carts, one wagon, blacksmith's tools, horses, harnesses, ropes, tent- poles and other necessaries were put on board a smaller vessel . . ."

                                            My point being that the transport by sea of carts and wagons was common.


                                            YHOS
                                            Mike Manning
                                          • d_einhorn
                                            ... I interpret the above quote as supporting the theory that they brought the minimum amount of equipment with the intent to build or acquire the rest of the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 15, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "mbrmanning2" <michael.manning@...> wrote:
                                              > "My six cannon, gun-carriages, boxes, chests, two carts, one wagon, blacksmith's tools, horses, harnesses, ropes, tent- poles and other necessaries were put on board a smaller vessel . . ."
                                              >
                                              > My point being that the transport by sea of carts and wagons was common.

                                              I interpret the above quote as supporting the theory that they brought the minimum amount of equipment with the intent to build or acquire the rest of the needed carts and wagons, etc. on this side of the Atlantic.

                                              The statement describes a *full* battery of cannons, as well as blacksmith tools (no wheeled forge mentioned) and a massive pile of ammunition, tack, and other supplies. Two carts and one wagon would not be sufficient transport more than a *small* fraction of those supplies. A battery requires several wagons just to carry ammunition and repair parts, a separate wagon just to carry carpentry tools, a separate wagon to carry horse shoes and iron bars, wagons to carry the camping supplies and food.

                                              My point is if they had brought over all the wagons that a full cannon battery would have needed, that would have been such a important event that it would have been mentioned in the missive.
                                            • robertaselig@juno.com
                                              Good morning - I went through my files but can not find any information that the French, or at least Rochambeau in 1780, brought any kind of forges with them
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 4, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Good morning - I went through my files but can not find any information that the French, or at least Rochambeau in 1780, brought any kind of forges with them to America. Bob=============
                                                ---------- Original Message ----------
                                                From: "d_einhorn" <d_einhorn@...>
                                                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [Revlist] Re: French Calvery Traveling Forge
                                                Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:10:06 -0000

                                                As to the first part of your question, I too doubt that the French brought over any Traveling Forges.

                                                As to the second part of your question: I have posted copies of old drawings of 1) a two wheeled French military forge cart type Traveling Forge, and 2) the later four wheeled French Traveling Forge. If you are specific in what version you want, I will try to provide any further drawings and/or information that I can dig up from my research material.

                                                Please note: Military Traveling Forges from this and later periods were horse carts or wagons... not hand carts.

                                                Best wishes,
                                                Dave Einhorn, author of the book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing"

                                                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Cook" <medic19440@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Does anyone have any information on whether the French had brought any
                                                > of their traveling forges over during the war? Also would anyone have
                                                > any idea where there may be a set of plans for such a wagon? ....
                                                > Tom




                                                ____________________________________________________________
                                                Refinance your home now
                                                Loans under 729K usually qualify for US GOV backed refinance programs
                                                http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50e6dd6d19c175d6d6f12st02duc

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.