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Re: Historically accurate pattern for British regimental coat

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  • George
    First of all, I totally agree with the points and resources outlined by Thad in the prior e-mail. Secondly, I raised the pointed recently on another YAHOO
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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      First of all, I totally agree with the points and resources outlined
      by Thad in the prior e-mail.

      Secondly, I raised the pointed recently on another YAHOO group about
      the BAR's lack of patterns of soldiers. This situation has existed for
      a while now and is - in my view - totally unacceptable for a
      member-focused not-for-profit educational organization ("they are
      coming" has been the excuse for far too long now...).

      Finally, its beyond me that with so many researchers, living
      historians, tailors, sutlers and other enthusiasts that we are all
      dependant upon one person - no matter who skilled and knowledgable he
      may be - for the proper period patterns. Sounds like an opportunity
      for some knowledgeable and enterprising individual, unit or
      organization. We should never find ourselves depending on a sole
      individual (or sutler) be it for a proper pattern...or anything else.

      Many of us are on individuals and units when they use the wrong
      patterns, materials, techniques, fit or whatever. We are quick to
      label them (farbs or whatever...), but at the same time we are guilty
      in "the hobby" of being far too close to the vest about our precious
      research, patterns, resources, findings, insights, learnings, etc. Far
      too many treat research and patterns, etc. like they are jewels for a
      sacred few and not the vast unwashed find themselves attracted to that
      same "hobby".

      YMH&OS,

      George F Franks III
    • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/2/2007 1:40:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, agood@netjets.com writes: I ve seen some non-BAR patterns used to make coats, and for some
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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        In a message dated 8/2/2007 1:40:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
        agood@... writes:

        I've
        seen some non-BAR patterns used to make coats, and
        for some reason the finished product comes out looking
        really baggy/saggy. I think the Cooke pattern does a
        better job right from the start of addressing that
        issue.


        As Henry Cooke says, in the 18th century the fit of men's clothing should be
        close but not constrictive.

        J~

        John M. Johnston,
        42d Grenr. Compy.

        "There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness." Dave Barry



        ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
        http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • battlehillbob
        ... accurate ... Most ... have ... by ... were ... information? ... Hi Sheri and list I also agree with all who referred you to the BAR Cooke pattern. I have
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 2, 2007
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          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Sherri Rapp" <staleyrapp@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am wondering the opinions of the various learned folks in this
          > community of which pattern-makers have the most historically
          accurate
          > pattern for British regimental coats for standard infantry/foot
          > companies (ie. not Highland, not light infantry, not grenadier).
          Most
          > importantly, WHY would you consider a particular pattern best? I
          have
          > been told that the Smoke & Fire pattern is most accurate.
          >
          > Additionally, what is the opinion of shortened tails for British
          > soldiers? I have heard that shortened coats were used "on campaign"
          by
          > certain regiments (or certain companies within a regiment). When
          were
          > they used (time period)? And by which regiments that we know of for
          > sure? Again, what period sources can we point to for that
          information?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Sherri Rapp
          > 7th Royal Fusiliers
          > Guilford Battleground NMP
          >
          Hi Sheri and list
          I also agree with all who referred you to the BAR Cooke pattern. I
          have used a lot of the other patterns offered and wasted my time and
          money.
          Be aware that using one of Henry's pattern without first considering
          some of the key points can end you ship wrecked also. I have been
          using the patterns since 1991 and even as recent as 2 month ago I had
          to ask Henry about a key point I wanted to look better. Henry was
          very helpful. The pattern you get has to be fasioned to fit one
          person who is slightly different from another. I fit a pattern to a
          man who's shoulders pulled forward more than usual and found I really
          had to recut the pattern or the guy would tear the rear seam the
          first time yawned.
          Since the pattern seems not avalible to us us currently can someone
          loan one to you??? and of course you wouldn't copy it.
          The BAR Cooke patterns are the best today I think.
          Cheers
          Bob Fry
          47th foot
        • Jay Howlett
          ... Far ... that ... Hi George, I read this post this morning and have been thinking about it all day.I know there are folks who share your views, that people
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 3, 2007
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            >
            > Many of us are on individuals and units when they use the wrong
            > patterns, materials, techniques, fit or whatever. We are quick to
            > label them (farbs or whatever...), but at the same time we are guilty
            > in "the hobby" of being far too close to the vest about our precious
            > research, patterns, resources, findings, insights, learnings, etc.
            Far
            > too many treat research and patterns, etc. like they are jewels for a
            > sacred few and not the vast unwashed find themselves attracted to
            that
            > same "hobby".
            >
            > YMH&OS,
            >
            > George F Franks III
            Hi George,
            I read this post this morning and have been thinking about it all
            day.I know there are folks who share your views, that people are under
            some sort of obligation to share all of their knowledge and research
            because we all love the hobby.Over the years I have been willing to
            share sources and information with plenty of folks( many of them right
            on this list) and I really don't mind trying to assist the individual
            who is working on his own kit.
            But in the last few years I am encountering more and more folks who
            will pump you and then turn around and and be trying to make a buck
            off you.The worst case I recall was in NY ,a friend of mine offered a
            shirt making workshop,the next spring one of the attendees was
            offering the same work shop right down to the hand out with the
            authors name scratched out and the attendees name in the spot.By then
            he was calling himself a taylor.Me and my friends who are supporting
            our selves making reproductions very often see inferior knock offs of
            our work.All of the extras(karate,ballet, birthdays) for my kids come
            from my side work,the time and money I spend traveling to examine
            original pieces cost me money,and pulls be away from my bench.Sorry if
            I do not feel an obligation to give away anything to folks who want to
            use it to undercut me. I am not hoarding anything if folks want to
            attend a workshop, great ,I will be getting back maybe 1/10th of the
            hours spent in research and establishing sources for materials.
            I really am not trying to come off like a prick here,George is not the
            only person I have heard this from.But, if you wanted me to teach you
            to play electric bass would I be obliged to do it for free cos we both
            love rock n roll?JMH

            >
          • Sherri Rapp
            Todd, Thad, Alex and George, Wow! Y all have been a wealth of information. I went to one of the UNC Libraries today and found a book on the History of the
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 3, 2007
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              Todd, Thad, Alex and George,


              Wow! Y'all have been a wealth of information. I went to one of the UNC
              Libraries today and found a book on the History of the Royal Fusiliers
              that I have been wanting to buy - don't have to buy it now. :-)

              Also, UNC has the Prussian regulations in book and microfilm, as well
              as a host of other period publications, broadsides, etc. I don't know
              why I never thought of UNC or any other university library before. Duh!
              I'll be happy to post whatever I can find that may be of interest to
              the rest of the List. I'll definitely check out Henry Cooke's pattern
              with the BAR.

              Various members in our unit (mainly new members) have been told that 1)
              our white knee breeches are incorrect and 2) our coats should be
              shortened. So, I'm searching for hard documentation to support one side
              or the other of each. I just want to know for sure. After all, the
              shorter coats would be a little lighter and the red Carolina dirt
              wouldn't stand out so much with brown gaitered overalls or trousers.
              But with no hard evidence, we just stick to the Royal Cloathing
              Warrant. I will have to admit, though, that some of our regimental
              coats are a little "baggy". However, each individual is moving toward
              more accurate portrayals as we learn and as funds permit.

              Thanks for all the help!

              Sherri Rapp
              7th Royal Fusiliers
              Guilford Battleground NMP
            • Alexander McCracken Good
              ... Hi Jay, I think you hit the nail right on the head. You re sharing the information, and getting a return on that information that satisfies you. Thus, both
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 3, 2007
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                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Howlett" <rushonboys@...> wrote:

                Hi Jay,

                I think you hit the nail right on the head. You're
                sharing the information, and getting a return on that
                information that satisfies you. Thus, both you and the
                hobby benefit from your time and efforts put into it.
                What's frustrating (and this may be more where George
                was going with his venting), is when someone digs up
                information, and then sits on it for 10, 15, 20 years
                or more and does nothing with it. How can anyone benefit
                from that? If it's put into book, article, or some other
                mode of publishing (workshops count), everyone benefits,
                except those hobbiests too set in their ways to change.

                Having spent a lot of money (I try not to remind my
                wife how much) of my own researching primary info, I
                for one don't see any issues Jay in your recouping
                some or all of what you've sunk into your part of
                the hobby. I'm just glad that you're able to share
                everything with the rest of us, in some way, shape,
                or form. Hording sucks. Making a profit doesn't.

                ;^)

                Alex,
                76th Foot


                > > Many of us are on individuals and units when they use the wrong
                > > patterns, materials, techniques, fit or whatever. We are quick to
                > > label them (farbs or whatever...), but at the same time we are
                guilty
                > > in "the hobby" of being far too close to the vest about our
                precious
                > > research, patterns, resources, findings, insights, learnings,
                etc.
                > Far
                > > too many treat research and patterns, etc. like they are jewels
                for a
                > > sacred few and not the vast unwashed find themselves attracted to
                > that
                > > same "hobby".
                > >
                > > YMH&OS,
                > >
                > > George F Franks III
                > Hi George,
                > I read this post this morning and have been thinking about it all
                > day.I know there are folks who share your views, that people are
                under
                > some sort of obligation to share all of their knowledge and
                research
                > because we all love the hobby.Over the years I have been willing to
                > share sources and information with plenty of folks( many of them
                right
                > on this list) and I really don't mind trying to assist the
                individual
                > who is working on his own kit.
                > But in the last few years I am encountering more and more folks
                who
                > will pump you and then turn around and and be trying to make a buck
                > off you.The worst case I recall was in NY ,a friend of mine
                offered a
                > shirt making workshop,the next spring one of the attendees was
                > offering the same work shop right down to the hand out with the
                > authors name scratched out and the attendees name in the spot.By
                then
                > he was calling himself a taylor.Me and my friends who are
                supporting
                > our selves making reproductions very often see inferior knock offs
                of
                > our work.All of the extras(karate,ballet, birthdays) for my kids
                come
                > from my side work,the time and money I spend traveling to examine
                > original pieces cost me money,and pulls be away from my bench.Sorry
                if
                > I do not feel an obligation to give away anything to folks who want
                to
                > use it to undercut me. I am not hoarding anything if folks want to
                > attend a workshop, great ,I will be getting back maybe 1/10th of
                the
                > hours spent in research and establishing sources for materials.
                > I really am not trying to come off like a prick here,George is not
                the
                > only person I have heard this from.But, if you wanted me to teach
                you
                > to play electric bass would I be obliged to do it for free cos we
                both
                > love rock n roll?JMH
                >
                > >
                >
              • Todd Post
                Alex, For me it s more about karma. Karma can take many forms...payment for services, barter or trade, or a simple acknowledgment or thanks. Guys like Jay put
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 3, 2007
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                  Alex,

                  For me it's more about karma. Karma can take many forms...payment
                  for services, barter or trade, or a simple acknowledgment or thanks.
                  Guys like Jay put on period clothes to go to work in the morning, so
                  this is a livelihood for them. In that case, payment or barter is
                  usually more appropriate. I'm just an amateur, so if someone takes
                  some information but down the road gives some in return, that's cool
                  too.

                  I agree, hording does suck. At the same time, some times its
                  prompted by getting burned. Some people will pump you for every
                  piece of information you have and never acknowledge you for it, don't
                  offer anything in return, etc. When you get the sense you're getting
                  used, you get the feeling you might need to shut off the tap.

                  It's a delicate balance, but as long as there is karma, everything is
                  cool.

                  Cheers,
                  Todd

                  On Aug 3, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Alexander McCracken Good wrote:

                  > Hi Jay,
                  >
                  > I think you hit the nail right on the head. You're
                  > sharing the information, and getting a return on that
                  > information that satisfies you. Thus, both you and the
                  > hobby benefit from your time and efforts put into it.
                  > What's frustrating (and this may be more where George
                  > was going with his venting), is when someone digs up
                  > information, and then sits on it for 10, 15, 20 years
                  > or more and does nothing with it. How can anyone benefit
                  > from that? If it's put into book, article, or some other
                  > mode of publishing (workshops count), everyone benefits,
                  > except those hobbiests too set in their ways to change.
                  >
                  > Having spent a lot of money (I try not to remind my
                  > wife how much) of my own researching primary info, I
                  > for one don't see any issues Jay in your recouping
                  > some or all of what you've sunk into your part of
                  > the hobby. I'm just glad that you're able to share
                  > everything with the rest of us, in some way, shape,
                  > or form. Hording sucks. Making a profit doesn't.
                  >
                  > ;^)
                  >
                  > Alex,
                  > 76th Foot
                • Alexander McCracken Good
                  ... Todd, Unfortunately, it s human nature to overlearn a lesson. Just because one person hoses you over doesn t mean the next will, but it s certainly easy to
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 3, 2007
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                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@...> wrote:

                    Todd,

                    Unfortunately, it's human nature to overlearn
                    a lesson. Just because one person hoses you
                    over doesn't mean the next will, but it's
                    certainly easy to put up barriers I guess.

                    Kharma is certainly one way to describe it.
                    I was thinking how when I was in the military,
                    currency wasn't money so much as it was swapping
                    shifts and being free with your beer. In college
                    it was beer and pizza. In the academic/reenacting
                    community it's information/knowledge (and occasionally
                    booze, too :^) ). It's amazing how passing along
                    info to someone opens doors far more than anything
                    else would. So yeah, I guess kharma comes close
                    to explaining things. :^>

                    Alex,
                    76th Foot


                    > For me it's more about karma. Karma can take many forms...payment
                    > for services, barter or trade, or a simple acknowledgment or
                    thanks.
                    > Guys like Jay put on period clothes to go to work in the morning,
                    so
                    > this is a livelihood for them. In that case, payment or barter is
                    > usually more appropriate. I'm just an amateur, so if someone
                    takes
                    > some information but down the road gives some in return, that's
                    cool
                    > too.
                    >
                    > I agree, hording does suck. At the same time, some times its
                    > prompted by getting burned. Some people will pump you for every
                    > piece of information you have and never acknowledge you for it,
                    don't
                    > offer anything in return, etc. When you get the sense you're
                    getting
                    > used, you get the feeling you might need to shut off the tap.
                    >
                    > It's a delicate balance, but as long as there is karma, everything
                    is
                    > cool.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Todd
                    >
                    > On Aug 3, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Alexander McCracken Good wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hi Jay,
                    > >
                    > > I think you hit the nail right on the head. You're
                    > > sharing the information, and getting a return on that
                    > > information that satisfies you. Thus, both you and the
                    > > hobby benefit from your time and efforts put into it.
                    > > What's frustrating (and this may be more where George
                    > > was going with his venting), is when someone digs up
                    > > information, and then sits on it for 10, 15, 20 years
                    > > or more and does nothing with it. How can anyone benefit
                    > > from that? If it's put into book, article, or some other
                    > > mode of publishing (workshops count), everyone benefits,
                    > > except those hobbiests too set in their ways to change.
                    > >
                    > > Having spent a lot of money (I try not to remind my
                    > > wife how much) of my own researching primary info, I
                    > > for one don't see any issues Jay in your recouping
                    > > some or all of what you've sunk into your part of
                    > > the hobby. I'm just glad that you're able to share
                    > > everything with the rest of us, in some way, shape,
                    > > or form. Hording sucks. Making a profit doesn't.
                    > >
                    > > ;^)
                    > >
                    > > Alex,
                    > > 76th Foot
                    >
                  • George
                    I think a number of good points have been made here. Listen, whether an individual or an organization - if you ve done your research - and you can make a buck
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 4, 2007
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                      I think a number of good points have been made here.

                      Listen, whether an individual or an organization - if you've done your
                      research - and you can make a buck selling the patterns or the
                      research...or whatever - that's great. Thats the American way. I am
                      all for it.

                      Two things I was trying to highlight ---

                      First are organizations like the BAR (yes, I am a member) that are
                      quick to criticize about the wrong cut, pattern, material, etc. and
                      they have not had their patterns available or updated for men for
                      years. And they do (did) charge for them. Perhaps thats more a
                      function of the organizations problems at present than anything else.

                      Secondly are the people who have done research and dont share it - for
                      a price or whatever - they keep it close to their vest - but are also
                      quick to criticize others as the unknowing, unwashed, farbs or
                      whatever. If you do it commercially as a sutler - sell it. If you are
                      an academic and waiting to publish it - just say that. But if you are
                      keep gems of research just so you can say you know something and the
                      rest of the hobby - new or veteran - are ignorant - I think that is
                      inexcusable...and unfortunately way too common with 18th century
                      living historians.

                      My two cents on the topic - for clarification...

                      YMH&OS,

                      Geo. Franks
                    • John Ogden
                      Hear, hear. ... -- Kings will be tyrants from policy, when subjects are rebels from principle. Edmund Burke MP (1729-1797) [Non-text portions of this message
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 5, 2007
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                        Hear, hear.

                        On 8/4/07, George <gffranks3@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think a number of good points have been made here.
                        >
                        > Listen, whether an individual or an organization - if you've done your
                        > research - and you can make a buck selling the patterns or the
                        > research...or whatever - that's great. Thats the American way. I am
                        > all for it.
                        >
                        > Two things I was trying to highlight ---
                        >
                        > First are organizations like the BAR (yes, I am a member) that are
                        > quick to criticize about the wrong cut, pattern, material, etc. and
                        > they have not had their patterns available or updated for men for
                        > years. And they do (did) charge for them. Perhaps thats more a
                        > function of the organizations problems at present than anything else.
                        >
                        > Secondly are the people who have done research and dont share it - for
                        > a price or whatever - they keep it close to their vest - but are also
                        > quick to criticize others as the unknowing, unwashed, farbs or
                        > whatever. If you do it commercially as a sutler - sell it. If you are
                        > an academic and waiting to publish it - just say that. But if you are
                        > keep gems of research just so you can say you know something and the
                        > rest of the hobby - new or veteran - are ignorant - I think that is
                        > inexcusable...and unfortunately way too common with 18th century
                        > living historians.
                        >
                        > My two cents on the topic - for clarification...
                        >
                        > YMH&OS,
                        >
                        > Geo. Franks
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        "Kings will be tyrants from policy, when subjects are rebels from
                        principle."

                        Edmund Burke MP
                        (1729-1797)


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