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Live Fire - Re: A note on safety

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  • sschuyler59
    ... EVER,.....snip ... (I lifted the above way out of context - I suspect the author is NOT saying one should never shoot live rounds in the proper
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <warbow67@...> wrote:
      > snip........The real solution is simple: No live rounds
      EVER,.....snip
      >

      (I lifted the above way out of context - I suspect the author is NOT
      saying one should never shoot live rounds in the proper conditions.)

      A quick point about live fire and safety.

      A reenactor who has had her/his weapon out to a range for live fire
      has (or SHOULD have) developed a respect for the piece as a real
      firearm.

      Far too many reenactors seem to think of their musket as a noise and
      smoke making prop other then a weapon. How many have see men standing
      about with their chin resting on the muzzle of their gun? If you have
      seen one you have seen one too many.

      IMHO a session or two of carefully supervised live fire should be
      part of indoctrination of new troops.

      Any individual who picks up a firearm is responsible for its safe
      handling. Safety rules are valuable but ultimately personal
      responsiblity is key.

      Kevin Richard-Morrow
      Second Reg't Albany County Militia
    • Vern Catron
      I whole heartedly agree many re-enactors of ALL time periods do not equate their weapons as real . My Father was a Marine and drummed it into my head treat
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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        I whole heartedly agree many re-enactors of ALL time periods do not equate
        their weapons as "real". My Father was a Marine and drummed it into my head
        treat all weapons (firearms) as if they were loaded, that included all toy
        guns in our house (except squirt guns).

        When I am at the range I always search the piece to ensure it is not loaded
        before leaving. Upon arrival home they get cleaned. Live firing does develop
        a real sense that you are handeling a real weapon. Additionally provides you
        with the answer what is it like to fire this for real when asked by the
        public........ "does that thaing kick?" etc. Several times my ACW group has
        done a "group" live fire and seeing the effect of volley fire is
        interesting.


        Vern Catron

        www.history-buff.org <http://www.history-buff.org/>

        Meddle ye not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good
        with ketchup (or HP).

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        sschuyler59
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:45 AM
        To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Revlist] Live Fire - Re: A note on safety



        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> .com, "Dave"
        <warbow67@...> wrote:
        > snip........The real solution is simple: No live rounds
        EVER,.....snip
        >

        (I lifted the above way out of context - I suspect the author is NOT
        saying one should never shoot live rounds in the proper conditions.)

        A quick point about live fire and safety.

        A reenactor who has had her/his weapon out to a range for live fire
        has (or SHOULD have) developed a respect for the piece as a real
        firearm.

        Far too many reenactors seem to think of their musket as a noise and
        smoke making prop other then a weapon. How many have see men standing
        about with their chin resting on the muzzle of their gun? If you have
        seen one you have seen one too many.

        IMHO a session or two of carefully supervised live fire should be
        part of indoctrination of new troops.

        Any individual who picks up a firearm is responsible for its safe
        handling. Safety rules are valuable but ultimately personal
        responsiblity is key.

        Kevin Richard-Morrow
        Second Reg't Albany County Militia









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rick Lawson
        ... Sadly, I ve seen it WAY too many times!! ... You can do a very effective BLANK firing demonstration as to the dangers of flintlocks without anything down
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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          >
          > Far too many reenactors seem to think of their musket as a noise and
          > smoke making prop other then a weapon. How many have see men standing
          > about with their chin resting on the muzzle of their gun? If you have
          > seen one you have seen one too many.
          Sadly, I've seen it WAY too many times!!


          > IMHO a session or two of carefully supervised live fire should be
          > part of indoctrination of new troops.

          You can do a very effective BLANK firing demonstration as to the
          dangers of flintlocks without anything down the tube but black powder.
          Jim Hollister, Black Powder Safety Ranger at Minuteman Nat. Historic
          Park does a demonstration for us reenactors who are going through the
          V.I.P. "Star Card" safety program they run every year. Taking his
          musket and a full 12oz. soda can, he places the can on a post about
          8-10 inches away from the end of his muzzle, loads and fires a
          regulation blank cartridge at it then picks up whats left to pass
          around to the reenactors. It's fairly impressive and the silence from
          the others is telling to what could happen if your face, hand, foot,
          etc... got in the way of a blast like that!!

          Again, the can is totally destroyed just by the force of the escaping
          gas, no ball, no wading... nothing in the barrel but black powder.

          I've also seen that done another place with a melon... honeydew,
          cantelope, watermelon or pumpkin will work!! The "head" shape seems to
          drive it home even better!

          > Any individual who picks up a firearm is responsible for its safe
          > handling. Safety rules are valuable but ultimately personal
          > responsiblity is key.

          VERY True, it's up to each and every one of us to at all times be
          mindful of safety!! Whats in your cartridge box, whats in your gun and
          where the weapon is pointed!

          YH&OS,
          Rick Lawson, Capt.
          Stow Minutemen Co.
        • Dave
          This is all absolutely true, and I myself have (horror of horrors) been guilty of the chin rest (you would think someone like me being captain of my high
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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            This is all absolutely true, and I myself have (horror of horrors)
            been guilty of the chin rest (you would think someone like me being
            captain of my high school MCJROTC rifle team responsible for training
            other JROTC cadets for range safety, in addition to service in the
            Army Reserve, and being Captain of the 3rd NH Regt I should know
            better). My latest long land bess musket coming up to nearly my eye
            balls should cure that tendency, now I just have to watch that hand
            rest. I do still retain excellent muzzle direction safety instinct in
            regards to others, something other reenactors have a tough time
            developing (meaning don't point the muzzle at someone when you are
            trying to carry on a civilized conversation with them, etc).

            But my original post was in regards to mixing live ball or shot ammo
            with blank ammo on the battlefield or parade ground. This is in
            regards to when we DO deliberately point the thing at someone and pull
            the trigger. In those circumstances we do not wish to qualify for the
            "Vice President's" Award and blow someone's face off. Therefore the
            safety rules must be even more strict and ruthlessly enforced because
            a one in a million chance of a genuine projectile down the barrel is
            STILL too much of a probability, it must be brought down to as close
            to real ZERO as possible. All the safe handling techniques and muzzle
            control mean nothing when we finally do aim the suckers at each other
            and shoot if there be a lead ball coming out of someone's barrel. In a
            strange sense, to reenact combat scenarios we must break some of the
            highest safety rules of all and actually pretend to try to kill each
            other with burning gunpowder. Odd, isn't it?

            Dave H
            3NH


            -----------------------------



            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "sschuyler59" <sschuyler59@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <warbow67@> wrote:
            > > snip........The real solution is simple: No live rounds
            > EVER,.....snip
            > >
            >
            > (I lifted the above way out of context - I suspect the author is NOT
            > saying one should never shoot live rounds in the proper conditions.)
            >
            > A quick point about live fire and safety.
            >
            > A reenactor who has had her/his weapon out to a range for live fire
            > has (or SHOULD have) developed a respect for the piece as a real
            > firearm.
            >
            > Far too many reenactors seem to think of their musket as a noise and
            > smoke making prop other then a weapon. How many have see men standing
            > about with their chin resting on the muzzle of their gun? If you have
            > seen one you have seen one too many.
            >
            > IMHO a session or two of carefully supervised live fire should be
            > part of indoctrination of new troops.
            >
            > Any individual who picks up a firearm is responsible for its safe
            > handling. Safety rules are valuable but ultimately personal
            > responsiblity is key.
            >
            > Kevin Richard-Morrow
            > Second Reg't Albany County Militia
            >
          • Chris E.
            What ever happened to ALL weapons are LOADED weapons! ?? and NEVER point it at anything you don t intend to KILL!! Chris E
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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              What ever happened to "ALL weapons are LOADED weapons!" ?? and "NEVER
              point it at anything you don't intend to KILL!!"

              Chris E
            • Jay Callaham
              Kind of hard to represent linear warfare if that is taken too literally. Jay Coldm Regt ... From: Chris E. To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 02,
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 2, 2007
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                Kind of hard to represent linear warfare if that is taken too literally.

                Jay
                Coldm Regt
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Chris E.
                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:31 PM
                Subject: [Revlist] Live Fire - Re: A note on safety



                What ever happened to "ALL weapons are LOADED weapons!" ?? and "NEVER
                point it at anything you don't intend to KILL!!"

                Chris E



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • wa3ngg@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/2/2007 5:34:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... One simple safety procedure, not foolproof, but an extra ounce of prevention. Don t aim at,
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 3, 2007
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                  In a message dated 4/2/2007 5:34:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  warbow67@... writes:

                  > All the safe handling techniques and muzzle
                  > control mean nothing when we finally do aim the suckers at each other
                  > and shoot if there be a lead ball coming out of someone's barrel.

                  One simple safety procedure, not foolproof, but an extra ounce of prevention.
                  Don't aim at, aim near. It looks the same to an observer. Parallax and
                  all, you know.
                  Yrs,
                  Bill


                  **************************************
                  See what's free at
                  http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jay Callaham
                  ... Aim small; miss small! YIKES! Jay Coldm Regt Jay Callaham callaham@bellsouth.net If you do not receive this, it must have miscarried, therefore I beg
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 3, 2007
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                    > From: wa3ngg@...
                    > Date: 2007/04/03 Tue AM 06:28:54 EDT
                    > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Live Fire - Re: A note on safety
                    >
                    > In a message dated 4/2/2007 5:34:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > warbow67@... writes:
                    >
                    > > All the safe handling techniques and muzzle
                    > > control mean nothing when we finally do aim the suckers at each other
                    > > and shoot if there be a lead ball coming out of someone's barrel.
                    >
                    > One simple safety procedure, not foolproof, but an extra ounce of prevention.
                    > Don't aim at, aim near. It looks the same to an observer. Parallax and
                    > all, you know.
                    > Yrs,
                    > Bill

                    "Aim small; miss small!"

                    YIKES!

                    Jay
                    Coldm Regt

                    Jay Callaham
                    callaham@...

                    "If you do not receive this, it must have miscarried, therefore I beg you write and let me know." - - - Sir Boyle Roche, 18th century Member of the Irish Parliament

                    If it says: "Send to everyone you know" - - please pretend you don't know me!
                  • Dave
                    The rule is to aim one foot above the target s head. But if you have a projectile accidently down the barrel and should it launch on a low trajectory you will
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 3, 2007
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                      The rule is to aim one foot above the target's head. But if you have a
                      projectile accidently down the barrel and should it launch on a low
                      trajectory you will still hit the man as you are lined up with his
                      profile despite aiming over his head. This is why we do not ram the
                      cartridge paper; a ramrod accidently left down the barrel would become
                      a projectile. Again, despite the fact that we aim over their heads
                      still means we are breaking the most fundamental safety rule of the
                      shooting range; never point the muzzle at anybody. In reenacting
                      battles we by necessity alter the range rules to fit the situation,
                      quite understandably, for it is a battle field not a shooting range.
                      This does not mean our safety rules are any less stringent or
                      effective or lower quality than range rules; they are simply a
                      different set of rules and are equally safe and effective.

                      Dave H
                      3NH


                      --------------------------------------------




                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, wa3ngg@... wrote:
                      >
                      > In a message dated 4/2/2007 5:34:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > warbow67@... writes:
                      >
                      > > All the safe handling techniques and muzzle
                      > > control mean nothing when we finally do aim the suckers at each other
                      > > and shoot if there be a lead ball coming out of someone's barrel.
                      >
                      > One simple safety procedure, not foolproof, but an extra ounce of
                      prevention.
                      > Don't aim at, aim near. It looks the same to an observer.
                      Parallax and
                      > all, you know.
                      > Yrs,
                      > Bill
                      >
                      >
                      > **************************************
                      > See what's free at
                      > http://www.aol.com
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Jay Callaham
                      ... This is why I do NOT like having us aim high. I ll slap the BS stamp on THAT idea. Besides looking flat out silly since most tend to exagerrate the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 4, 2007
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                        > From: "Dave" <warbow67@...>
                        > Date: 2007/04/03 Tue PM 11:11:48 EDT
                        > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [Revlist] Live Fire - Re: A note on safety
                        >
                        > The rule is to aim one foot above the target's head. But if you have a
                        > projectile accidently down the barrel and should it launch on a low
                        > trajectory you will still hit the man as you are lined up with his
                        > profile despite aiming over his head.

                        <snip>

                        This is why I do NOT like having us aim high. I'll slap the BS stamp on THAT idea. Besides looking flat out silly since most tend to exagerrate the aim and look like duck hunters, it is MORE dangerous!

                        We did an experiment at Fort Frederick one year wherein we laid a cheap white cotton handkerchief over a tomahawk target that was about chest high. We had a 9-man squad, in three close ranks (front kneeling) all armed with Brown Bess repros, all firing about 120 grain charges, without wadding, just like we do in normal reenactments, to volley at it. We started at 30 yards (the MINIMUM for direct aiming in most safety regs) and fired one volley elevated and one level. Nothing on the target. We approached in 5 yard increments firing the same way until we started seeing stuff hit the cloth. We had to get to within 10 PACES (shorter than yards - and that was measured to the FEET of the front rank shooters, not the muzzle ends of the weapons) to show any material hitting the fabric - and I was standing pretty close beside the target during the whole process. Even at 10 paces there wasn't much showing on the cloth. At FIVE paces, it got ugly. Both elevated and level fires hit and caused burns. Elevated, naturally, we saw the first little bits of burned powder reaching the target from further out at about 15 yards. LEVEL at that range - nothing hit the target. The elevated shots allowed the stuff to carry further. There's this thing called gravity - Newton figured it out and it's been in all the journals. even in our era. Level shots mean that junk like unburned powder residue falls faster.

                        If some foreign object makes its way into a firelock - aiming high simply increases the range at which it can strike someone. That whole issue needs to be re-thought. Elevation is only beneficial at POINT-BLANK range - - where we shouldn't be shooting anyway.

                        When we have long lines of opposing troops, we're going to be aiming in the direction of someone. Level aimed fire is safer.

                        Jay
                        Coldm Regt

                        Jay Callaham
                        callaham@...

                        "If you do not receive this, it must have miscarried, therefore I beg you write and let me know." - - - Sir Boyle Roche, 18th century Member of the Irish Parliament

                        If it says: "Send to everyone you know" - - please pretend you don't know me!
                      • Dave
                        We follow the rules. They are not our rules, they are the Continental Line s rules. One foot above the head. When the distance between opposing forces is
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 4, 2007
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                          We follow the rules. They are not our rules, they are the Continental
                          Line's rules. One foot above the head. When the distance between
                          opposing forces is greater than the minimum of 25 yds aiming one foot
                          above the head looks like level fire from a distance. We don't
                          experiment with loads, wadding, distances, etc. We don't have time to
                          do that, we just follow the rules.

                          Dave H
                          3NH


                          ------------------------------------



                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Jay Callaham <callaham@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > From: "Dave" <warbow67@...>
                          > > Date: 2007/04/03 Tue PM 11:11:48 EDT
                          > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [Revlist] Live Fire - Re: A note on safety
                          > >
                          > > The rule is to aim one foot above the target's head. But if you
                          have a
                          > > projectile accidently down the barrel and should it launch on a
                          low
                          > > trajectory you will still hit the man as you are lined up with his
                          > > profile despite aiming over his head.
                          >
                          > <snip>
                          >
                          > This is why I do NOT like having us aim high. I'll slap the BS
                          stamp on THAT idea. Besides looking flat out silly since most tend to
                          exagerrate the aim and look like duck hunters, it is MORE dangerous!
                          >
                          > We did an experiment at Fort Frederick one year wherein we laid a
                          cheap white cotton handkerchief over a tomahawk target that was about
                          chest high. We had a 9-man squad, in three close ranks (front
                          kneeling) all armed with Brown Bess repros, all firing about 120
                          grain charges, without wadding, just like we do in normal
                          reenactments, to volley at it. We started at 30 yards (the MINIMUM
                          for direct aiming in most safety regs) and fired one volley elevated
                          and one level. Nothing on the target. We approached in 5 yard
                          increments firing the same way until we started seeing stuff hit the
                          cloth. We had to get to within 10 PACES (shorter than yards - and
                          that was measured to the FEET of the front rank shooters, not the
                          muzzle ends of the weapons) to show any material hitting the fabric -
                          and I was standing pretty close beside the target during the whole
                          process. Even at 10 paces there wasn't much showing on the cloth. At
                          FIVE paces, it got ugly. Both elevated and level fires hit and caused
                          burns. Elevated, naturally, we saw the first little bits of burned
                          powder reaching the target from further out at about 15 yards. LEVEL
                          at that range - nothing hit the target. The elevated shots allowed
                          the stuff to carry further. There's this thing called gravity -
                          Newton figured it out and it's been in all the journals. even in our
                          era. Level shots mean that junk like unburned powder residue falls
                          faster.
                          >
                          > If some foreign object makes its way into a firelock - aiming high
                          simply increases the range at which it can strike someone. That whole
                          issue needs to be re-thought. Elevation is only beneficial at POINT-
                          BLANK range - - where we shouldn't be shooting anyway.
                          >
                          > When we have long lines of opposing troops, we're going to be
                          aiming in the direction of someone. Level aimed fire is safer.
                          >
                          > Jay
                          > Coldm Regt
                          >
                          > Jay Callaham
                          > callaham@...
                          >
                          > "If you do not receive this, it must have miscarried, therefore I
                          beg you write and let me know." - - - Sir Boyle Roche, 18th century
                          Member of the Irish Parliament
                          >
                          > If it says: "Send to everyone you know" - - please pretend you
                          don't know me!
                          >
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