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RE: Authenticity Standards - Naked Soldiers?

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  • Christopher Ware
    Thanks to Todd for all the primary source material. I would agree that moments in time the men were uniformed in a like manner. But can we say that was the
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2006
      Thanks to Todd for all the primary source material. I would agree that moments in time the men were uniformed in a like manner. But can we say that was the norm, or did that give way soon after? Many units were combined after casualties, desertions and illness decimated their numbers. I don't have an answer, but I suspect that a regiment that is pretty much dressed the same, with some variations, is the best way to go.

      That said, I have encountered a number of references to soldiers being "naked" or in a "state of near nakedness". One of Todd's quotes alludes to this.

      I assume the authors are not being literal, but just how shabby are we talking about. I think it was Greene that reported that the Southern Army was so poorly clothed that they had to put a bit of moss(!) or cloth to keep the musket from rubbing their shoulders raw and complained that their cartridge boxes were likewise chaffing their "loins". That seems to indicate to me an army literally in rags.

      I would like to get the list's thoughts on this. How "naked" are we talking about?

      And please note I am not in any advocating that we turn out in the buff to be authentic. :)

      Chris Christopher Ware "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind." -Humphrey Bogart

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jay Callaham
      ... ... Naked, in 18th century parlance, could mean any number of things. I ve seen a reference to someone talking about being attacked by a
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2006
        > From: "Christopher Ware" <chris1stva@...>

        <snip>

        > I would like to get the list's thoughts on this. How "naked" are we talking about?
        >
        > And please note I am not in any advocating that we turn out in the buff to be authentic. :)

        <snip>

        "Naked," in 18th century parlance, could mean any number of things. I've seen a reference to someone talking about being attacked by a man with a sword, "and I, being naked" - - in that context meaning "without a weapon."

        I've seen "naked" in the context of meaning "with no coat or waistcoat."

        In the 18th century, the term "naked" seems to have been more of a relative than an absolute term. It was, apparently, very different from "NEKKID!"

        Cheers!

        Jay
        Coldm Regt
        4th Coy, Bde of Guards

        Jay Callaham
        callaham@...

        "If you do not receive this, it must have miscarried, therefore I beg you write and let me know." - - - Sir Boyle Roche, 18th century Member of the Irish Parliament

        If it says: "Send to everyone you know" - - please pretend you don't know me!
      • David McKissack
        ... talking about? Hello Chris -- I think most of the time naked refers to those instances mentioned by Jay Callaham. On the other hand, it sometimes did
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Ware" <chris1stva@...>
          >I would like to get the list's thoughts on this. How "naked" are we
          talking about?

          Hello Chris --

          I think most of the time "naked" refers to those instances mentioned
          by Jay Callaham. On the other hand, it sometimes did mean "nekkid as
          the day he was borne." For example, here's Col. Christian Febiger on
          the men of the Virginia Battalion in July 1781:

          "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining Any
          Thing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers on
          the Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men are
          literally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of Anthony
          Wayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.

          I don't think "clubs" means those fellows were playing golf.

          Cheers.
          Dave McKissack

          2nd NC -- CL
          Augusta Militia -- BAR

          "...those dear ragged Continentals, whose patience will be the
          admiration of future ages." Colonel John Laurens, KIA, Combahee Ferry,
          SC, 27 Aug 1782.
        • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
          Dave, Any sense of what take to their Scrapers means in this quote? Cheers, John turf1@vt.edu writes: But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
            Dave,
            Any sense of what 'take to their Scrapers' means in this quote?

            Cheers,
            John

            turf1@... writes:

            "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining Any
            Thing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers on
            the Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men are
            literally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of Anthony
            Wayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.




            John M. Johnston
            42d Grenr. Compy.
            There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • PBSP@AOL.COM
            In a message dated 6/2/2006 7:40:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, turf1@vt.edu ... Sounds like the army needs a policy on this. John Mills Mott s Artillery
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
              In a message dated 6/2/2006 7:40:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, turf1@...
              writes:
              >>Appearance of so many naked Clubs<<

              Sounds like the army needs a 'policy' on this.


              John Mills
              Mott's Artillery


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David McKissack
              John -- I don t know. By scrapers ( see http://www.ballandball-us.com/footscrapers.html ) could Febiger be saying the women would retreat to the security of
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                John -- I don't know. By "scrapers" ( see
                http://www.ballandball-us.com/footscrapers.html ) could Febiger be
                saying the women would retreat to the security of their homes?

                Cheers,
                Dave

                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dave,
                > Any sense of what 'take to their Scrapers' means in this quote?
                >
                > Cheers,
                > John
                >
                > turf1@... writes:
                >
                > "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining Any
                > Thing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers on
                > the Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men are
                > literally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of Anthony
                > Wayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > John M. Johnston
                > 42d Grenr. Compy.
                > There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • M. Katt
                I m no expert on 18c lingo...but being female and if I were subject to so many naked Clubs , I would imagine it to mean they put their heads down and
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                  I'm no expert on 18c lingo...but being female and if I were subject to "so
                  many naked Clubs",
                  I would imagine it to mean they put their heads down and *pretended* to be
                  hard at work..
                  "scraping".
                  My two cents (most likely wrong)
                  Michelle in Michigan

                  On 6/2/06, Sgt42RHR@... <Sgt42RHR@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  > Any sense of what 'take to their Scrapers' means in this quote?
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > John
                  >
                  > turf1@... writes:
                  >
                  > "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining Any
                  > Thing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers on
                  > the Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men are
                  > literally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of Anthony
                  > Wayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > John M. Johnston
                  > 42d Grenr. Compy.
                  > There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  "Hey! They've got the internet on computers now!" -Homer Simpson


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Scott Smith
                  ... This passage can be viewed in its larger context of the Virginia Campaign of 1781 here: http://www.wscottsmith.com/VirginiaCampaign/gaskins/history.html
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                    >Any sense of what 'take to their Scrapers' means in this quote?

                    This passage can be viewed in its larger context of the Virginia Campaign of 1781 here:
                    http://www.wscottsmith.com/VirginiaCampaign/gaskins/history.html

                    But that doesn't help define the term "scrapers." We brought that question to the Revlist a number of years ago, and some folks thought that it might mean "kitchen", but I have had no further verification of that.

                    Scott Smith
                    Geographer's Dept.


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                  • Keith
                    Greetings, Not to intrude, but scrapers my be a mis-spelling of an older English slang word, Scarpers . An Elderly English Lady who lived next door to me
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                      Greetings,
                      Not to intrude, but "scrapers" my be a mis-spelling of an older English
                      slang word, "Scarpers". An Elderly English Lady who lived next door to
                      me when I was a boy in Colorado used this term quite a bit, and my
                      understanding of the term meant to turn tail and run. Basically, when
                      the Ladies ran away in a hurry, the tended to pull their dresses up to
                      allow freedom of leg movement, and their "bloomers","knickers",
                      or "scarpers" would be seen.
                      I also was taught that it meant to scurry away quickly, hence the
                      term, "Scarper about".
                      Of course, I am also of the understanding that the Lady's chemise was
                      the basic underwear of this period, so I probably just muddied the
                      waters even more....

                      Your Obdt. Svt.,
                      Keith



                      > > "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining
                      Any
                      > > Thing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers
                      on
                      > > the Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men are
                      > > literally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of Anthony
                      > > Wayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.
                    • Christopher Ware
                      But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining AnyThing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers onthe Appearance of so
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                        "But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining AnyThing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers onthe Appearance of so many naked Clubs. The fact is the men areliterally naked, shirts and Blanketts excepted." Papers of AnthonyWayne, 7/23/81, Historical Society of Pennsylvania.That is quite a revealing (ha!) quote. Maybe we should, as authentic Continentals, modify our uniform for Green Springs, which took place around the date of that quote. Since it will be July in Williamsburg, we would be more comfortable, and I bet we don't get any of those annoying "are you hot" questions.

                        I do plan on wearing my hunting shirt rather than my regimental for that reason. I suffer for my art only to a point. God bless you Red Coats.

                        Chris Christopher Ware "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind." -Humphrey Bogart




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • caltrop@aol.com
                        Now we re way out of period. Scarper is actually Cockney rhyming slang of a much later and even current era. Scarper is from Scapa Flow = to go. Let s
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                          Now we're way out of period.

                          "Scarper" is actually Cockney rhyming slang of a much later and even current
                          era.

                          "Scarper" is from "Scapa Flow" = to go.

                          Let's not get started on where and what is Scapa Flow, but if you really
                          don't know, turn to your atlas.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ed kennedy
                          ... Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue 1811 gives one definition of scapering as a practice of students scraping their feet on the floor to show diaapprobation.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 2, 2006
                            Christopher Ware wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > <<"But Lord have mercy upon us, a modest army of Women on examining
                            > AnyThing lower than the navel, would instantly take to their Scrapers
                            > onthe Appearance of so many naked Clubs>>.

                            Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue 1811 gives one definition of 'scapering'
                            as a practice of students scraping their feet on the floor to show
                            diaapprobation. Could be the suggestion that it should have been
                            scrapers rather than scarpers.

                            ed
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