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Re: 225 years ago (Queen's Rangers)

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  • ehrmanngm
    Gary, This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR questions for you or anyone else whom may be in the know ? Of interest to me is how were
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
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      Gary,
      This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR
      questions for you or anyone else whom may "be in the know"?
      Of interest to me is how were the QR's attired and deployed during
      these and any similar operationS? Did the Grenadier Company stay
      with the Regiment or was it with other Grenadier Companies in a
      Gren. BN? Did the Grens. actually wear their bearskins in the
      field, if not what? Did the Grens. wear a Regimental Caot with
      Black facings instead of a "coatee" in the field? If present, were
      the Grens. deployed as just another line company? These questions
      could be used for the Highland Co. too? Also, were kilts worn in
      the field, what was the plaid; McNabb or Govt. set? How was this
      company employed too?
      Thanks for your time.

      Cheers, Greg Ehrmann

      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Oh yes it is.
      > Besides, there are other primary accounts, besides Simcoe's.
      > Try some of the testimonials written by other Loyalists of their
      war
      > experiences, and ditto for the American participants.
      > Years ago I even came across the journal of a QR officer on the
      > Arnold expeditioin to Virginia. Very illuminating-talk about
      second
      > hand smoke.They burned a hell of a lot of tobacco.Wonder if any of
      > the QR's died of lung cancer
      >
      > Gary Corrado, QR
      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "banner1780" <banner1780@y...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Patrick J O'Kelley
      > <goober.com@j...>
      > > wrote:
      > > >What is your source for the "true" story? It is certainly not
      in
      > > Simcoe's account of the Saunder's troop at Georgetown.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > Howdy,
      > > > Here is two versions of one story. One is myth, and
      one
      > is
      > > true.
      > > > First the true story:
      > > >
      > > > Georgetown, South
      > > Carolina
      > > >
      > > > 27 December 1780
      > > >
      > > > To determine the strength of the British forces in Georgetown
      > > Marion sent
      > > > Peter Horry and, Captain Baxter, with thirty men from
      Indiantown,
      > > on a
      > > > reconnaissance.
      > > > In Georgetown Marion's men set up an ambush and waited for an
      > enemy
      > > to
      > > > appear. Cornet Meritt was commanding a troop of green-coated
      > > Queen's
      > > > Rangers in Georgetown. Meritt had been sent into the
      countryside
      > > around
      > > > Georgetown to provide cover for some slaves, which were sent
      to
      > the
      > > > neighboring plantations to bring back cattle that had wandered
      > away
      > > from
      > > > the garrison.
      > > > About midmorning Meritt, another officer and a squad of the
      > Queen's
      > > > Rangers were escorting two young ladies past Horry's ambush.
      > Horry
      > > > decided not to ambush these men, since the women were with
      them,
      > > and let
      > > > them pass. Horry and his men then went to a house to seek a
      late
      > > > breakfast because they had not eaten in thirty-six hours.
      They
      > > rode to
      > > > White's Plantation and discovered that inside the house was
      Mrs.
      > > White,
      > > > her daughter, and the two ladies that had been escorted by the
      > > Rangers.
      > > > Mrs. White asked Horry what he wanted, and he replied that he
      > > wanted food
      > > > and drink for his men. The family begged Horry to go away
      > because
      > > they
      > > > were all poor and had no provisions. Horry was confused,
      because
      > > he knew
      > > > these people were Marion supporters, so he followed Mrs. White
      to
      > > the
      > > > kitchen and asked what the matter was. She told Horry that
      the
      > two
      > > women
      > > > in the room were Tories, and that if Horry wanted anything, he
      > had
      > > to
      > > > pretend to take it by force. This was a situation that
      Marion's
      > > men were
      > > > used to, because if the people appeared too friendly the
      British
      > > may burn
      > > > their house down and place the inhabitants in jail.
      > > > Horry had gone back into the room with the Tory women, when
      the
      > > sentries
      > > > outside fired a warning shot and came running back to the
      house.
      > > They
      > > > told Horry that the Queen's Rangers were charging down the
      road.
      > > The
      > > > partisans quickly mounted their horses and charged the
      Rangers.
      > The
      > > > Rangers saw they were outnumbered, and fled back towards
      > > Georgetown.
      > > > Cornet Meritt stayed in the rear, fighting off each of Horry's
      > men
      > > as
      > > > they caught up with him. Captain Baxter fired pistols at
      Meritt,
      > > but
      > > > missed. Captain Postelle and another partisan came at Meritt
      with
      > > > swords, but they were driven back. Meritt had two horses
      killed
      > > under
      > > > him, and was so stunned by the fall of the last one that he
      was
      > > left for
      > > > dead. Marion's men took his boots, helmet and weapons. When
      he
      > > > recovered his senses he escaped into the swamp and hid.
      > > > Two of the prisoners captured by Horry were both men who had
      been
      > > in the
      > > > 3rd South Carolina Regiment. They said that they had enlisted
      > from
      > > the
      > > > prison ship in Charlestown so that they would have a better
      > chance
      > > to
      > > > escape.
      > > >
      > > > OK, now the myth. There is a version of this story has been
      > > distorted
      > > > due to the fabrications of Weems and his fictional account of
      > > Marion's
      > > > life in "The Life of General Francis Marion". Weems wrote
      that
      > > Horry's
      > > > horsemen chased the outnumbered British cavalry into
      Georgetown,
      > > where
      > > > there was a large British garrison. Major Ganey's Loyalists
      > dashed
      > > out
      > > > to meet Horry's dragoons, who did not slow down their
      pursuit.
      > > Horry
      > > > found himself alone in a section of woods, when he came across
      > > Captain
      > > > Lewis, one of Ganey's men. Horry was only armed with a small
      > > sword, but
      > > > Lewis had a musket. Lewis fired, hitting Horry's horse and
      > knocking
      > > > Horry from the saddle. As Lewis fired his musket at Horry, a
      > shot
      > > from
      > > > the woods knocked him from his horse. A boy named Gwin, who
      had
      > > been
      > > > watching the fight from the woods, had killed Lewis. Weems
      used a
      > > > seperate incident that happened on 15 November, at White's
      > > Plantation,
      > > > where "Otterskin" Lewis was wounded, as the basis for this
      > story.
      > > Weems
      > > > continued by telling how Ganey suspected an ambush and had his
      > men
      > > turn
      > > > and run back to the safety of Georgetown.
      > > > With Horry was Sergeant McDonald, who chased Major
      Ganey
      > > for two
      > > > miles on his horse Fox, until McDonald had almost caught up to
      > him.
      > > > McDonald was one of the Maryland Continentals that Marion
      rescued
      > > from
      > > > the British. Instead of going back to the Maryland Line, he
      > stayed
      > > with
      > > > Marion. Weems wrote that a rich Tory gave McDonald a horse
      called
      > > Selim,
      > > > when McDonald fooled the Tory into thinking that he was
      British.
      > > This is
      > > > another incorrect statement from Weems. Peter Horry
      wrote, "This
      > > Horses
      > > > Name was Fox. McDonald was a private man. A Scotch Man."
      > > > Weems continued with the Georgetown story, writing
      that
      > one
      > > of
      > > > Ganey's men threw himself in the way, but McDonald fired his
      > > carbine at
      > > > the man. Realizing that the carbine was unloaded, and he
      > couldn't
      > > reach
      > > > him with his sword, he took his musket and speared Ganey in
      the
      > > back and
      > > > out through the chest with his bayonet. When McDonald
      attempted
      > to
      > > free
      > > > the weapon, the bayonet remained in Ganey. Ganey rode up to
      the
      > > > redoubts, blood streaming from his wounds, screaming and
      clawing
      > at
      > > his
      > > > side. Ganey supposedly and amazingly recovered from his
      > wounds.
      > > > Horry wrote that Weems had it wrong again, and in this action
      it
      > was
      > > > Sergeant Cryer and not McDonald, who was on this raid. He
      also
      > > wrote
      > > > that no British were killed, and sixteen were captured. Only
      > Cornet
      > > > Merrit and a sergeant escaped. Unfortunately most of Marion's
      > > history
      > > > has been obscured by the sensational fiction of Weems, and
      even
      > > today
      > > > there are historical highway markers in Georgetown, South
      > Carolina,
      > > that
      > > > repeat this fantasy of Weems.
      > > >
      > > > Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
      > > > Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary
      War
      > > in the
      > > > Carolinas
      > > > Volume One 1771-1779
      > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
      > > > Volume Two 1780
      > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
      > > > Volume Three 1781
      > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
      > > > Volume Four 1782
      > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/2167.html
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Gary Corrado
      If you see the famous Murray paintings, they show 4 enlisted(not officers) of the Light, Rifle, Grenadier, and Hussar companies. Those, plus clothing returns,
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
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        If you see the famous Murray paintings, they show 4 enlisted(not
        officers) of the Light, Rifle, Grenadier, and Hussar companies.
        Those, plus clothing returns, help flesh out their appearance. That
        said, it appears their uniform changed at least 3 times, depending on
        what year of the AWI you refer to.
        ALL the enlisted in the Murray paintings(c.1780) wore green-faced-
        green.No black facings.
        Post-AWI paintings show several QR officers in regimentals with black
        facings.Their commander, however, posed for a painting in his AWI
        coat, again with black facings. Interestingly, ALL of the officers
        coats have the same laced buttonholes, with the buttons arranged in
        pairs.\That is because a toast recorded in a diary of a QR officer
        heard the officers refer to the "Second battalion" of the QR's.
        apparently after Rogers Rangers.
        The Grenadier company stayed with the Regiment, and was detached only
        on a few specific instances, but in company with other companies of
        the Regiment, as at Monmouth where they opened the battle in company
        with the Hussar company. A rebel eyewitness account refers to their
        being attacked by "mounted Grenadiers and grenadiers" referring to
        the similar headress of tall busby-type headgear of these 2 companies.
        So yes, the Grenadiers wore tall busby type bearskins, with the
        silver moon insignia on the front(shown clearly in the Murray
        painting). They wore a green waistcoat, a short regimenetal(a la
        Light infantry style), and the coats had the winged lappet style
        usually seen on Continental coats.All green.I do not believe they
        wore short swords, or hangers.Their roster was completed during the
        winter of Valley Forge, where many deserters came to the post manned
        by the QR's, and joined up. Many were Irish.
        The McNab tartan for the Highland company pictured in the Company of
        Military Historian print was a mistake.The author at the time found a
        McNab in the roster of that company, and assumed the whole company
        wore McNab tartans. Given their close campaigning with the 42nd and
        71st regiments, and being a company sized unit, I doubt anyone could
        make a case for anything but the goverrnment sett kilt for them.
        Simcoe used the Highland company as his personal guard, and were
        occasionally detached as lights.
        Check out our website for some of the uniforms.

        Gary Corrado, QR
        www.queensrangers.com


        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ehrmanngm" <gregory.ehrmann@R...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Gary,
        > This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR
        > questions for you or anyone else whom may "be in the know"?
        > Of interest to me is how were the QR's attired and deployed
        during
        > these and any similar operationS? Did the Grenadier Company stay
        > with the Regiment or was it with other Grenadier Companies in a
        > Gren. BN? Did the Grens. actually wear their bearskins in the
        > field, if not what? Did the Grens. wear a Regimental Caot with
        > Black facings instead of a "coatee" in the field? If present, were
        > the Grens. deployed as just another line company? These questions
        > could be used for the Highland Co. too? Also, were kilts worn in
        > the field, what was the plaid; McNabb or Govt. set? How was this
        > company employed too?
        > Thanks for your time.
        >
        > Cheers, Greg Ehrmann
        >
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Oh yes it is.
        > > Besides, there are other primary accounts, besides Simcoe's.
        > > Try some of the testimonials written by other Loyalists of their
        > war
        > > experiences, and ditto for the American participants.
        > > Years ago I even came across the journal of a QR officer on the
        > > Arnold expeditioin to Virginia. Very illuminating-talk about
        > second
        > > hand smoke.They burned a hell of a lot of tobacco.Wonder if any
        of
        > > the QR's died of lung cancer
        > >
        > > Gary Corrado, QR
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "banner1780" <banner1780@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Patrick J O'Kelley
        > > <goober.com@j...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >What is your source for the "true" story? It is certainly not
        > in
        > > > Simcoe's account of the Saunder's troop at Georgetown.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > Howdy,
        > > > > Here is two versions of one story. One is myth, and
        > one
        > > is
        > > > true.
        > > > > First the true story:
        > > > >
        > > > > Georgetown, South
        > > > Carolina
        > > > >
        > > > > 27 December 1780
        > > > >
        > > > > To determine the strength of the British forces in Georgetown
        > > > Marion sent
        > > > > Peter Horry and, Captain Baxter, with thirty men from
        > Indiantown,
        > > > on a
        > > > > reconnaissance.
        > > > > In Georgetown Marion's men set up an ambush and waited for an
        > > enemy
        > > > to
        > > > > appear. Cornet Meritt was commanding a troop of green-coated
        > > > Queen's
        > > > > Rangers in Georgetown. Meritt had been sent into the
        > countryside
        > > > around
        > > > > Georgetown to provide cover for some slaves, which were sent
        > to
        > > the
        > > > > neighboring plantations to bring back cattle that had
        wandered
        > > away
        > > > from
        > > > > the garrison.
        > > > > About midmorning Meritt, another officer and a squad of the
        > > Queen's
        > > > > Rangers were escorting two young ladies past Horry's ambush.
        > > Horry
        > > > > decided not to ambush these men, since the women were with
        > them,
        > > > and let
        > > > > them pass. Horry and his men then went to a house to seek a
        > late
        > > > > breakfast because they had not eaten in thirty-six hours.
        > They
        > > > rode to
        > > > > White's Plantation and discovered that inside the house was
        > Mrs.
        > > > White,
        > > > > her daughter, and the two ladies that had been escorted by
        the
        > > > Rangers.
        > > > > Mrs. White asked Horry what he wanted, and he replied that he
        > > > wanted food
        > > > > and drink for his men. The family begged Horry to go away
        > > because
        > > > they
        > > > > were all poor and had no provisions. Horry was confused,
        > because
        > > > he knew
        > > > > these people were Marion supporters, so he followed Mrs.
        White
        > to
        > > > the
        > > > > kitchen and asked what the matter was. She told Horry that
        > the
        > > two
        > > > women
        > > > > in the room were Tories, and that if Horry wanted anything,
        he
        > > had
        > > > to
        > > > > pretend to take it by force. This was a situation that
        > Marion's
        > > > men were
        > > > > used to, because if the people appeared too friendly the
        > British
        > > > may burn
        > > > > their house down and place the inhabitants in jail.
        > > > > Horry had gone back into the room with the Tory women, when
        > the
        > > > sentries
        > > > > outside fired a warning shot and came running back to the
        > house.
        > > > They
        > > > > told Horry that the Queen's Rangers were charging down the
        > road.
        > > > The
        > > > > partisans quickly mounted their horses and charged the
        > Rangers.
        > > The
        > > > > Rangers saw they were outnumbered, and fled back towards
        > > > Georgetown.
        > > > > Cornet Meritt stayed in the rear, fighting off each of
        Horry's
        > > men
        > > > as
        > > > > they caught up with him. Captain Baxter fired pistols at
        > Meritt,
        > > > but
        > > > > missed. Captain Postelle and another partisan came at Meritt
        > with
        > > > > swords, but they were driven back. Meritt had two horses
        > killed
        > > > under
        > > > > him, and was so stunned by the fall of the last one that he
        > was
        > > > left for
        > > > > dead. Marion's men took his boots, helmet and weapons. When
        > he
        > > > > recovered his senses he escaped into the swamp and hid.
        > > > > Two of the prisoners captured by Horry were both men who had
        > been
        > > > in the
        > > > > 3rd South Carolina Regiment. They said that they had enlisted
        > > from
        > > > the
        > > > > prison ship in Charlestown so that they would have a better
        > > chance
        > > > to
        > > > > escape.
        > > > >
        > > > > OK, now the myth. There is a version of this story has been
        > > > distorted
        > > > > due to the fabrications of Weems and his fictional account of
        > > > Marion's
        > > > > life in "The Life of General Francis Marion". Weems wrote
        > that
        > > > Horry's
        > > > > horsemen chased the outnumbered British cavalry into
        > Georgetown,
        > > > where
        > > > > there was a large British garrison. Major Ganey's Loyalists
        > > dashed
        > > > out
        > > > > to meet Horry's dragoons, who did not slow down their
        > pursuit.
        > > > Horry
        > > > > found himself alone in a section of woods, when he came
        across
        > > > Captain
        > > > > Lewis, one of Ganey's men. Horry was only armed with a small
        > > > sword, but
        > > > > Lewis had a musket. Lewis fired, hitting Horry's horse and
        > > knocking
        > > > > Horry from the saddle. As Lewis fired his musket at Horry, a
        > > shot
        > > > from
        > > > > the woods knocked him from his horse. A boy named Gwin, who
        > had
        > > > been
        > > > > watching the fight from the woods, had killed Lewis. Weems
        > used a
        > > > > seperate incident that happened on 15 November, at White's
        > > > Plantation,
        > > > > where "Otterskin" Lewis was wounded, as the basis for this
        > > story.
        > > > Weems
        > > > > continued by telling how Ganey suspected an ambush and had
        his
        > > men
        > > > turn
        > > > > and run back to the safety of Georgetown.
        > > > > With Horry was Sergeant McDonald, who chased Major
        > Ganey
        > > > for two
        > > > > miles on his horse Fox, until McDonald had almost caught up
        to
        > > him.
        > > > > McDonald was one of the Maryland Continentals that Marion
        > rescued
        > > > from
        > > > > the British. Instead of going back to the Maryland Line, he
        > > stayed
        > > > with
        > > > > Marion. Weems wrote that a rich Tory gave McDonald a horse
        > called
        > > > Selim,
        > > > > when McDonald fooled the Tory into thinking that he was
        > British.
        > > > This is
        > > > > another incorrect statement from Weems. Peter Horry
        > wrote, "This
        > > > Horses
        > > > > Name was Fox. McDonald was a private man. A Scotch Man."
        > > > > Weems continued with the Georgetown story, writing
        > that
        > > one
        > > > of
        > > > > Ganey's men threw himself in the way, but McDonald fired his
        > > > carbine at
        > > > > the man. Realizing that the carbine was unloaded, and he
        > > couldn't
        > > > reach
        > > > > him with his sword, he took his musket and speared Ganey in
        > the
        > > > back and
        > > > > out through the chest with his bayonet. When McDonald
        > attempted
        > > to
        > > > free
        > > > > the weapon, the bayonet remained in Ganey. Ganey rode up to
        > the
        > > > > redoubts, blood streaming from his wounds, screaming and
        > clawing
        > > at
        > > > his
        > > > > side. Ganey supposedly and amazingly recovered from his
        > > wounds.
        > > > > Horry wrote that Weems had it wrong again, and in this action
        > it
        > > was
        > > > > Sergeant Cryer and not McDonald, who was on this raid. He
        > also
        > > > wrote
        > > > > that no British were killed, and sixteen were captured. Only
        > > Cornet
        > > > > Merrit and a sergeant escaped. Unfortunately most of
        Marion's
        > > > history
        > > > > has been obscured by the sensational fiction of Weems, and
        > even
        > > > today
        > > > > there are historical highway markers in Georgetown, South
        > > Carolina,
        > > > that
        > > > > repeat this fantasy of Weems.
        > > > >
        > > > > Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
        > > > > Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary
        > War
        > > > in the
        > > > > Carolinas
        > > > > Volume One 1771-1779
        > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
        > > > > Volume Two 1780
        > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
        > > > > Volume Three 1781
        > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
        > > > > Volume Four 1782
        > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/2167.html
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • bdtm2004
        Greg, Further to Gary s answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green was the uniform throughout the unit s active period (ie from the Philadelphia campaign
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
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          Greg,

          Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green was
          the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
          Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781). The
          main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were probably
          dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
          distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not riflemen, as
          is sometimes stated - that is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst he
          was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later version
          raised in Canada.

          Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract hats"
          (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
          ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part of
          the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to the
          British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was just
          the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry by
          then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on what
          would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put their
          grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as the
          war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or modified)
          in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too much
          in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats given
          Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?

          The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon troop
          in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a true
          legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with the
          regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light company
          and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
          militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland company, as
          Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and either
          used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
          speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who were
          switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other Provincial
          units are known to have done this).

          Hope this helps.

          Regards,
          Brendan Morrissey
        • Gary Corrado
          Brendan: I have no specific information as to headgear being replaced. Years ago I saw a reference to a Ranger at Yorktown having his front plate worn down so
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Brendan:
            I have no specific information as to headgear being replaced.
            Years ago I saw a reference to a Ranger at Yorktown having his front
            plate worn down so much by their incessant campaigning that it was
            nothing more than a brim by that point. It makes sense, as Simcoe
            reported that while on campaign in Virginia the Regiment had so worn
            out its stores, that 50 men of the Regiment were "absolutely
            barefoot".
            So that cap reference makes some sense. Unfortunately, I lost the
            source for that observation.
            I can say that Simcoe was very happy to get those light infantry caps
            for all of the battalion companies.He hated those contract felt hats,
            calling them "miserable".He also left a clue as to whether he
            considered them a priority. He states that he received compliments
            from other officers on the appearance of the Rangers as a "light
            corps", making them all look like a light infantry corps.With the
            exception of the Grenadiers and Highlanders, the rest of the infantry
            would have the light caps: lights, rifles, and 8 battalion companies.
            Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
            was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the sleeved
            waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon after the
            formation of the Legion.
            It also appears the dragoons of both corps wore the same
            accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised troop of QR dragoons joined
            the Rangers in Virginia "without a single cavalry, appointment, or
            arms" according to Simcoe,their new equipment was instead sent to the
            Legion, by direct order of Cornwallis.The Legion were hurting for
            equipment at that point, also wearing white according to Simcoe, not
            green.So it is more of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon
            gear, rather than the other way around.

            Gary Corrado, QR


            -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
            >
            > Greg,
            >
            > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
            was
            > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
            > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
            The
            > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were probably
            > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
            > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not riflemen,
            as
            > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst he
            > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
            version
            > raised in Canada.
            >
            > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
            hats"
            > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
            > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part of
            > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to the
            > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was just
            > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
            by
            > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on what
            > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put their
            > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
            the
            > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or modified)
            > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
            much
            > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats given
            > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
            >
            > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
            troop
            > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
            true
            > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with the
            > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
            company
            > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
            > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland company,
            as
            > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
            either
            > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
            > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who were
            > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other Provincial
            > units are known to have done this).
            >
            > Hope this helps.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Brendan Morrissey
            >
          • bdtm2004
            ... Gary, Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim - do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours don t show
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
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              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
              > was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the
              > sleeved waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon
              > after the formation of the Legion. It also appears the dragoons of
              > both corps wore the same accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised
              > troop of QR dragoons joined the Rangers in Virginia "without a
              > single cavalry, appointment, or arms" according to Simcoe,their new
              > equipment was instead sent to the Legion, by direct order of
              > Cornwallis. The Legion were hurting for equipment at that point,
              > also wearing white according to Simcoe, not green. So it is more
              > of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon gear, rather than
              > the other way around.
              >

              Gary,

              Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim -
              do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours
              don't show any, but it was a widespread source of complaint about
              the "Keppel" light infantry cap.)

              As regards your comments above, we may be talking about different
              periods. I had gained the impression from some articles I'd read
              (but chiefly the Haarman one in JSAHR) that post-Yorktown - maybe the
              1782 clothing issue? - the green jacket with black cuffs and collars
              was sent out to both corps, possibly as an economy measure. I have a
              copy of Haarman's article somewhere and I shall try and dig it out to
              quote. Is the light dragoon troop you refer to that of Saunders, or
              is it another?

              Regards,
              Brendan Morrissey

              > Gary Corrado, QR
              >
              >
              > -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Greg,
              > >
              > > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
              > was
              > > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
              > > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
              > The
              > > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were
              probably
              > > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
              > > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not
              riflemen,
              > as
              > > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst
              he
              > > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
              > version
              > > raised in Canada.
              > >
              > > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
              > hats"
              > > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
              > > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part
              of
              > > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to
              the
              > > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was
              just
              > > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
              > by
              > > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on
              what
              > > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put
              their
              > > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
              > the
              > > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or
              modified)
              > > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
              > much
              > > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats
              given
              > > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
              > >
              > > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
              > troop
              > > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
              > true
              > > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with
              the
              > > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
              > company
              > > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
              > > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland
              company,
              > as
              > > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
              > either
              > > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
              > > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who
              were
              > > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other
              Provincial
              > > units are known to have done this).
              > >
              > > Hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > Brendan Morrissey
              > >
              >
            • Gary Corrado
              Brendan: OK , the Haarman references are definitely 1782-83. I was referring to 1780-81. I agree with the black cuff for both corps in the 82-83 time frame.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Brendan:

                OK , the Haarman references are definitely 1782-83. I was referring to
                1780-81. I agree with the black cuff for both corps in the 82-83 time
                frame. Both corps were cantoned together(in Huntington, Long Island)
                and I know the QR's were hurting for clothes and materials. I can
                plainly see the junior officers now commanding each of those corps
                getting together and economizing on one coat.
                That dragoon troop who arrived in Virginia with basically nothing, was
                Capt. Cooke's troop, late of the 17th dragoons.Saunders never left
                Charleston till 1782, and seemed not to hurt for supplies. The
                quartermaster of his troop was even doling out gear to other
                Provincial dragoon troops being raised there.That quartermaster even
                makes mention of teaching the carbine exercise while there,surprising
                since carbines seem to have been in short supply.

                Gary Corrado, QR

                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
                > > was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the
                > > sleeved waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon
                > > after the formation of the Legion. It also appears the dragoons of
                > > both corps wore the same accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised
                > > troop of QR dragoons joined the Rangers in Virginia "without a
                > > single cavalry, appointment, or arms" according to Simcoe,their new
                > > equipment was instead sent to the Legion, by direct order of
                > > Cornwallis. The Legion were hurting for equipment at that point,
                > > also wearing white according to Simcoe, not green. So it is more
                > > of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon gear, rather than
                > > the other way around.
                > >
                >
                > Gary,
                >
                > Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim -
                > do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours
                > don't show any, but it was a widespread source of complaint about
                > the "Keppel" light infantry cap.)
                >
                > As regards your comments above, we may be talking about different
                > periods. I had gained the impression from some articles I'd read
                > (but chiefly the Haarman one in JSAHR) that post-Yorktown - maybe the
                > 1782 clothing issue? - the green jacket with black cuffs and collars
                > was sent out to both corps, possibly as an economy measure. I have a
                > copy of Haarman's article somewhere and I shall try and dig it out to
                > quote. Is the light dragoon troop you refer to that of Saunders, or
                > is it another?
                >
                > Regards,
                > Brendan Morrissey
                >
                > > Gary Corrado, QR
                > >
                > >
                > > -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Greg,
                > > >
                > > > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
                > > was
                > > > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
                > > > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
                > > The
                > > > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were
                > probably
                > > > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
                > > > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not
                > riflemen,
                > > as
                > > > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst
                > he
                > > > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
                > > version
                > > > raised in Canada.
                > > >
                > > > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
                > > hats"
                > > > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
                > > > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part
                > of
                > > > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to
                > the
                > > > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was
                > just
                > > > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
                > > by
                > > > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on
                > what
                > > > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put
                > their
                > > > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
                > > the
                > > > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or
                > modified)
                > > > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
                > > much
                > > > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats
                > given
                > > > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
                > > >
                > > > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
                > > troop
                > > > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
                > > true
                > > > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with
                > the
                > > > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
                > > company
                > > > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
                > > > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland
                > company,
                > > as
                > > > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
                > > either
                > > > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
                > > > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who
                > were
                > > > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other
                > Provincial
                > > > units are known to have done this).
                > > >
                > > > Hope this helps.
                > > >
                > > > Regards,
                > > > Brendan Morrissey
                > > >
                > >
                >
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