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Re: 225 years ago today - Georgetown (reality versus myth)

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  • rgrokelley
    Howdy, ... I got my information from two guys who were there, Horry and William Dobein James. Always go with a primary source. Simcoe also mentions it, page
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 1, 2006
      Howdy,

      >What is your source for the "true" story? It is certainly not in
      > Simcoe's account of the Saunder's troop at Georgetown.

      I got my information from two guys who were there, Horry and
      William Dobein James. Always go with a primary source. Simcoe also
      mentions it, page 243-244 of the Arno reprint.

      Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
      Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
      the Carolinas
      Available at Volume One 1771-1779
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
      Volume Two 1780
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
      Volume Three 1781
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
    • ehrmanngm
      Gary, This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR questions for you or anyone else whom may be in the know ? Of interest to me is how were
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
        Gary,
        This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR
        questions for you or anyone else whom may "be in the know"?
        Of interest to me is how were the QR's attired and deployed during
        these and any similar operationS? Did the Grenadier Company stay
        with the Regiment or was it with other Grenadier Companies in a
        Gren. BN? Did the Grens. actually wear their bearskins in the
        field, if not what? Did the Grens. wear a Regimental Caot with
        Black facings instead of a "coatee" in the field? If present, were
        the Grens. deployed as just another line company? These questions
        could be used for the Highland Co. too? Also, were kilts worn in
        the field, what was the plaid; McNabb or Govt. set? How was this
        company employed too?
        Thanks for your time.

        Cheers, Greg Ehrmann

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Oh yes it is.
        > Besides, there are other primary accounts, besides Simcoe's.
        > Try some of the testimonials written by other Loyalists of their
        war
        > experiences, and ditto for the American participants.
        > Years ago I even came across the journal of a QR officer on the
        > Arnold expeditioin to Virginia. Very illuminating-talk about
        second
        > hand smoke.They burned a hell of a lot of tobacco.Wonder if any of
        > the QR's died of lung cancer
        >
        > Gary Corrado, QR
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "banner1780" <banner1780@y...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Patrick J O'Kelley
        > <goober.com@j...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >What is your source for the "true" story? It is certainly not
        in
        > > Simcoe's account of the Saunder's troop at Georgetown.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > Howdy,
        > > > Here is two versions of one story. One is myth, and
        one
        > is
        > > true.
        > > > First the true story:
        > > >
        > > > Georgetown, South
        > > Carolina
        > > >
        > > > 27 December 1780
        > > >
        > > > To determine the strength of the British forces in Georgetown
        > > Marion sent
        > > > Peter Horry and, Captain Baxter, with thirty men from
        Indiantown,
        > > on a
        > > > reconnaissance.
        > > > In Georgetown Marion's men set up an ambush and waited for an
        > enemy
        > > to
        > > > appear. Cornet Meritt was commanding a troop of green-coated
        > > Queen's
        > > > Rangers in Georgetown. Meritt had been sent into the
        countryside
        > > around
        > > > Georgetown to provide cover for some slaves, which were sent
        to
        > the
        > > > neighboring plantations to bring back cattle that had wandered
        > away
        > > from
        > > > the garrison.
        > > > About midmorning Meritt, another officer and a squad of the
        > Queen's
        > > > Rangers were escorting two young ladies past Horry's ambush.
        > Horry
        > > > decided not to ambush these men, since the women were with
        them,
        > > and let
        > > > them pass. Horry and his men then went to a house to seek a
        late
        > > > breakfast because they had not eaten in thirty-six hours.
        They
        > > rode to
        > > > White's Plantation and discovered that inside the house was
        Mrs.
        > > White,
        > > > her daughter, and the two ladies that had been escorted by the
        > > Rangers.
        > > > Mrs. White asked Horry what he wanted, and he replied that he
        > > wanted food
        > > > and drink for his men. The family begged Horry to go away
        > because
        > > they
        > > > were all poor and had no provisions. Horry was confused,
        because
        > > he knew
        > > > these people were Marion supporters, so he followed Mrs. White
        to
        > > the
        > > > kitchen and asked what the matter was. She told Horry that
        the
        > two
        > > women
        > > > in the room were Tories, and that if Horry wanted anything, he
        > had
        > > to
        > > > pretend to take it by force. This was a situation that
        Marion's
        > > men were
        > > > used to, because if the people appeared too friendly the
        British
        > > may burn
        > > > their house down and place the inhabitants in jail.
        > > > Horry had gone back into the room with the Tory women, when
        the
        > > sentries
        > > > outside fired a warning shot and came running back to the
        house.
        > > They
        > > > told Horry that the Queen's Rangers were charging down the
        road.
        > > The
        > > > partisans quickly mounted their horses and charged the
        Rangers.
        > The
        > > > Rangers saw they were outnumbered, and fled back towards
        > > Georgetown.
        > > > Cornet Meritt stayed in the rear, fighting off each of Horry's
        > men
        > > as
        > > > they caught up with him. Captain Baxter fired pistols at
        Meritt,
        > > but
        > > > missed. Captain Postelle and another partisan came at Meritt
        with
        > > > swords, but they were driven back. Meritt had two horses
        killed
        > > under
        > > > him, and was so stunned by the fall of the last one that he
        was
        > > left for
        > > > dead. Marion's men took his boots, helmet and weapons. When
        he
        > > > recovered his senses he escaped into the swamp and hid.
        > > > Two of the prisoners captured by Horry were both men who had
        been
        > > in the
        > > > 3rd South Carolina Regiment. They said that they had enlisted
        > from
        > > the
        > > > prison ship in Charlestown so that they would have a better
        > chance
        > > to
        > > > escape.
        > > >
        > > > OK, now the myth. There is a version of this story has been
        > > distorted
        > > > due to the fabrications of Weems and his fictional account of
        > > Marion's
        > > > life in "The Life of General Francis Marion". Weems wrote
        that
        > > Horry's
        > > > horsemen chased the outnumbered British cavalry into
        Georgetown,
        > > where
        > > > there was a large British garrison. Major Ganey's Loyalists
        > dashed
        > > out
        > > > to meet Horry's dragoons, who did not slow down their
        pursuit.
        > > Horry
        > > > found himself alone in a section of woods, when he came across
        > > Captain
        > > > Lewis, one of Ganey's men. Horry was only armed with a small
        > > sword, but
        > > > Lewis had a musket. Lewis fired, hitting Horry's horse and
        > knocking
        > > > Horry from the saddle. As Lewis fired his musket at Horry, a
        > shot
        > > from
        > > > the woods knocked him from his horse. A boy named Gwin, who
        had
        > > been
        > > > watching the fight from the woods, had killed Lewis. Weems
        used a
        > > > seperate incident that happened on 15 November, at White's
        > > Plantation,
        > > > where "Otterskin" Lewis was wounded, as the basis for this
        > story.
        > > Weems
        > > > continued by telling how Ganey suspected an ambush and had his
        > men
        > > turn
        > > > and run back to the safety of Georgetown.
        > > > With Horry was Sergeant McDonald, who chased Major
        Ganey
        > > for two
        > > > miles on his horse Fox, until McDonald had almost caught up to
        > him.
        > > > McDonald was one of the Maryland Continentals that Marion
        rescued
        > > from
        > > > the British. Instead of going back to the Maryland Line, he
        > stayed
        > > with
        > > > Marion. Weems wrote that a rich Tory gave McDonald a horse
        called
        > > Selim,
        > > > when McDonald fooled the Tory into thinking that he was
        British.
        > > This is
        > > > another incorrect statement from Weems. Peter Horry
        wrote, "This
        > > Horses
        > > > Name was Fox. McDonald was a private man. A Scotch Man."
        > > > Weems continued with the Georgetown story, writing
        that
        > one
        > > of
        > > > Ganey's men threw himself in the way, but McDonald fired his
        > > carbine at
        > > > the man. Realizing that the carbine was unloaded, and he
        > couldn't
        > > reach
        > > > him with his sword, he took his musket and speared Ganey in
        the
        > > back and
        > > > out through the chest with his bayonet. When McDonald
        attempted
        > to
        > > free
        > > > the weapon, the bayonet remained in Ganey. Ganey rode up to
        the
        > > > redoubts, blood streaming from his wounds, screaming and
        clawing
        > at
        > > his
        > > > side. Ganey supposedly and amazingly recovered from his
        > wounds.
        > > > Horry wrote that Weems had it wrong again, and in this action
        it
        > was
        > > > Sergeant Cryer and not McDonald, who was on this raid. He
        also
        > > wrote
        > > > that no British were killed, and sixteen were captured. Only
        > Cornet
        > > > Merrit and a sergeant escaped. Unfortunately most of Marion's
        > > history
        > > > has been obscured by the sensational fiction of Weems, and
        even
        > > today
        > > > there are historical highway markers in Georgetown, South
        > Carolina,
        > > that
        > > > repeat this fantasy of Weems.
        > > >
        > > > Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
        > > > Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary
        War
        > > in the
        > > > Carolinas
        > > > Volume One 1771-1779
        > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
        > > > Volume Two 1780
        > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
        > > > Volume Three 1781
        > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
        > > > Volume Four 1782
        > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/2167.html
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Gary Corrado
        If you see the famous Murray paintings, they show 4 enlisted(not officers) of the Light, Rifle, Grenadier, and Hussar companies. Those, plus clothing returns,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
          If you see the famous Murray paintings, they show 4 enlisted(not
          officers) of the Light, Rifle, Grenadier, and Hussar companies.
          Those, plus clothing returns, help flesh out their appearance. That
          said, it appears their uniform changed at least 3 times, depending on
          what year of the AWI you refer to.
          ALL the enlisted in the Murray paintings(c.1780) wore green-faced-
          green.No black facings.
          Post-AWI paintings show several QR officers in regimentals with black
          facings.Their commander, however, posed for a painting in his AWI
          coat, again with black facings. Interestingly, ALL of the officers
          coats have the same laced buttonholes, with the buttons arranged in
          pairs.\That is because a toast recorded in a diary of a QR officer
          heard the officers refer to the "Second battalion" of the QR's.
          apparently after Rogers Rangers.
          The Grenadier company stayed with the Regiment, and was detached only
          on a few specific instances, but in company with other companies of
          the Regiment, as at Monmouth where they opened the battle in company
          with the Hussar company. A rebel eyewitness account refers to their
          being attacked by "mounted Grenadiers and grenadiers" referring to
          the similar headress of tall busby-type headgear of these 2 companies.
          So yes, the Grenadiers wore tall busby type bearskins, with the
          silver moon insignia on the front(shown clearly in the Murray
          painting). They wore a green waistcoat, a short regimenetal(a la
          Light infantry style), and the coats had the winged lappet style
          usually seen on Continental coats.All green.I do not believe they
          wore short swords, or hangers.Their roster was completed during the
          winter of Valley Forge, where many deserters came to the post manned
          by the QR's, and joined up. Many were Irish.
          The McNab tartan for the Highland company pictured in the Company of
          Military Historian print was a mistake.The author at the time found a
          McNab in the roster of that company, and assumed the whole company
          wore McNab tartans. Given their close campaigning with the 42nd and
          71st regiments, and being a company sized unit, I doubt anyone could
          make a case for anything but the goverrnment sett kilt for them.
          Simcoe used the Highland company as his personal guard, and were
          occasionally detached as lights.
          Check out our website for some of the uniforms.

          Gary Corrado, QR
          www.queensrangers.com


          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ehrmanngm" <gregory.ehrmann@R...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Gary,
          > This is as interesting as it is little known. I have some QR
          > questions for you or anyone else whom may "be in the know"?
          > Of interest to me is how were the QR's attired and deployed
          during
          > these and any similar operationS? Did the Grenadier Company stay
          > with the Regiment or was it with other Grenadier Companies in a
          > Gren. BN? Did the Grens. actually wear their bearskins in the
          > field, if not what? Did the Grens. wear a Regimental Caot with
          > Black facings instead of a "coatee" in the field? If present, were
          > the Grens. deployed as just another line company? These questions
          > could be used for the Highland Co. too? Also, were kilts worn in
          > the field, what was the plaid; McNabb or Govt. set? How was this
          > company employed too?
          > Thanks for your time.
          >
          > Cheers, Greg Ehrmann
          >
          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Oh yes it is.
          > > Besides, there are other primary accounts, besides Simcoe's.
          > > Try some of the testimonials written by other Loyalists of their
          > war
          > > experiences, and ditto for the American participants.
          > > Years ago I even came across the journal of a QR officer on the
          > > Arnold expeditioin to Virginia. Very illuminating-talk about
          > second
          > > hand smoke.They burned a hell of a lot of tobacco.Wonder if any
          of
          > > the QR's died of lung cancer
          > >
          > > Gary Corrado, QR
          > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "banner1780" <banner1780@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Patrick J O'Kelley
          > > <goober.com@j...>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >What is your source for the "true" story? It is certainly not
          > in
          > > > Simcoe's account of the Saunder's troop at Georgetown.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > Howdy,
          > > > > Here is two versions of one story. One is myth, and
          > one
          > > is
          > > > true.
          > > > > First the true story:
          > > > >
          > > > > Georgetown, South
          > > > Carolina
          > > > >
          > > > > 27 December 1780
          > > > >
          > > > > To determine the strength of the British forces in Georgetown
          > > > Marion sent
          > > > > Peter Horry and, Captain Baxter, with thirty men from
          > Indiantown,
          > > > on a
          > > > > reconnaissance.
          > > > > In Georgetown Marion's men set up an ambush and waited for an
          > > enemy
          > > > to
          > > > > appear. Cornet Meritt was commanding a troop of green-coated
          > > > Queen's
          > > > > Rangers in Georgetown. Meritt had been sent into the
          > countryside
          > > > around
          > > > > Georgetown to provide cover for some slaves, which were sent
          > to
          > > the
          > > > > neighboring plantations to bring back cattle that had
          wandered
          > > away
          > > > from
          > > > > the garrison.
          > > > > About midmorning Meritt, another officer and a squad of the
          > > Queen's
          > > > > Rangers were escorting two young ladies past Horry's ambush.
          > > Horry
          > > > > decided not to ambush these men, since the women were with
          > them,
          > > > and let
          > > > > them pass. Horry and his men then went to a house to seek a
          > late
          > > > > breakfast because they had not eaten in thirty-six hours.
          > They
          > > > rode to
          > > > > White's Plantation and discovered that inside the house was
          > Mrs.
          > > > White,
          > > > > her daughter, and the two ladies that had been escorted by
          the
          > > > Rangers.
          > > > > Mrs. White asked Horry what he wanted, and he replied that he
          > > > wanted food
          > > > > and drink for his men. The family begged Horry to go away
          > > because
          > > > they
          > > > > were all poor and had no provisions. Horry was confused,
          > because
          > > > he knew
          > > > > these people were Marion supporters, so he followed Mrs.
          White
          > to
          > > > the
          > > > > kitchen and asked what the matter was. She told Horry that
          > the
          > > two
          > > > women
          > > > > in the room were Tories, and that if Horry wanted anything,
          he
          > > had
          > > > to
          > > > > pretend to take it by force. This was a situation that
          > Marion's
          > > > men were
          > > > > used to, because if the people appeared too friendly the
          > British
          > > > may burn
          > > > > their house down and place the inhabitants in jail.
          > > > > Horry had gone back into the room with the Tory women, when
          > the
          > > > sentries
          > > > > outside fired a warning shot and came running back to the
          > house.
          > > > They
          > > > > told Horry that the Queen's Rangers were charging down the
          > road.
          > > > The
          > > > > partisans quickly mounted their horses and charged the
          > Rangers.
          > > The
          > > > > Rangers saw they were outnumbered, and fled back towards
          > > > Georgetown.
          > > > > Cornet Meritt stayed in the rear, fighting off each of
          Horry's
          > > men
          > > > as
          > > > > they caught up with him. Captain Baxter fired pistols at
          > Meritt,
          > > > but
          > > > > missed. Captain Postelle and another partisan came at Meritt
          > with
          > > > > swords, but they were driven back. Meritt had two horses
          > killed
          > > > under
          > > > > him, and was so stunned by the fall of the last one that he
          > was
          > > > left for
          > > > > dead. Marion's men took his boots, helmet and weapons. When
          > he
          > > > > recovered his senses he escaped into the swamp and hid.
          > > > > Two of the prisoners captured by Horry were both men who had
          > been
          > > > in the
          > > > > 3rd South Carolina Regiment. They said that they had enlisted
          > > from
          > > > the
          > > > > prison ship in Charlestown so that they would have a better
          > > chance
          > > > to
          > > > > escape.
          > > > >
          > > > > OK, now the myth. There is a version of this story has been
          > > > distorted
          > > > > due to the fabrications of Weems and his fictional account of
          > > > Marion's
          > > > > life in "The Life of General Francis Marion". Weems wrote
          > that
          > > > Horry's
          > > > > horsemen chased the outnumbered British cavalry into
          > Georgetown,
          > > > where
          > > > > there was a large British garrison. Major Ganey's Loyalists
          > > dashed
          > > > out
          > > > > to meet Horry's dragoons, who did not slow down their
          > pursuit.
          > > > Horry
          > > > > found himself alone in a section of woods, when he came
          across
          > > > Captain
          > > > > Lewis, one of Ganey's men. Horry was only armed with a small
          > > > sword, but
          > > > > Lewis had a musket. Lewis fired, hitting Horry's horse and
          > > knocking
          > > > > Horry from the saddle. As Lewis fired his musket at Horry, a
          > > shot
          > > > from
          > > > > the woods knocked him from his horse. A boy named Gwin, who
          > had
          > > > been
          > > > > watching the fight from the woods, had killed Lewis. Weems
          > used a
          > > > > seperate incident that happened on 15 November, at White's
          > > > Plantation,
          > > > > where "Otterskin" Lewis was wounded, as the basis for this
          > > story.
          > > > Weems
          > > > > continued by telling how Ganey suspected an ambush and had
          his
          > > men
          > > > turn
          > > > > and run back to the safety of Georgetown.
          > > > > With Horry was Sergeant McDonald, who chased Major
          > Ganey
          > > > for two
          > > > > miles on his horse Fox, until McDonald had almost caught up
          to
          > > him.
          > > > > McDonald was one of the Maryland Continentals that Marion
          > rescued
          > > > from
          > > > > the British. Instead of going back to the Maryland Line, he
          > > stayed
          > > > with
          > > > > Marion. Weems wrote that a rich Tory gave McDonald a horse
          > called
          > > > Selim,
          > > > > when McDonald fooled the Tory into thinking that he was
          > British.
          > > > This is
          > > > > another incorrect statement from Weems. Peter Horry
          > wrote, "This
          > > > Horses
          > > > > Name was Fox. McDonald was a private man. A Scotch Man."
          > > > > Weems continued with the Georgetown story, writing
          > that
          > > one
          > > > of
          > > > > Ganey's men threw himself in the way, but McDonald fired his
          > > > carbine at
          > > > > the man. Realizing that the carbine was unloaded, and he
          > > couldn't
          > > > reach
          > > > > him with his sword, he took his musket and speared Ganey in
          > the
          > > > back and
          > > > > out through the chest with his bayonet. When McDonald
          > attempted
          > > to
          > > > free
          > > > > the weapon, the bayonet remained in Ganey. Ganey rode up to
          > the
          > > > > redoubts, blood streaming from his wounds, screaming and
          > clawing
          > > at
          > > > his
          > > > > side. Ganey supposedly and amazingly recovered from his
          > > wounds.
          > > > > Horry wrote that Weems had it wrong again, and in this action
          > it
          > > was
          > > > > Sergeant Cryer and not McDonald, who was on this raid. He
          > also
          > > > wrote
          > > > > that no British were killed, and sixteen were captured. Only
          > > Cornet
          > > > > Merrit and a sergeant escaped. Unfortunately most of
          Marion's
          > > > history
          > > > > has been obscured by the sensational fiction of Weems, and
          > even
          > > > today
          > > > > there are historical highway markers in Georgetown, South
          > > Carolina,
          > > > that
          > > > > repeat this fantasy of Weems.
          > > > >
          > > > > Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
          > > > > Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary
          > War
          > > > in the
          > > > > Carolinas
          > > > > Volume One 1771-1779
          > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
          > > > > Volume Two 1780
          > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
          > > > > Volume Three 1781
          > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
          > > > > Volume Four 1782
          > > > > http://www.booklocker.com/books/2167.html
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • bdtm2004
          Greg, Further to Gary s answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green was the uniform throughout the unit s active period (ie from the Philadelphia campaign
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 3, 2006
            Greg,

            Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green was
            the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
            Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781). The
            main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were probably
            dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
            distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not riflemen, as
            is sometimes stated - that is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst he
            was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later version
            raised in Canada.

            Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract hats"
            (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
            ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part of
            the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to the
            British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was just
            the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry by
            then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on what
            would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put their
            grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as the
            war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or modified)
            in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too much
            in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats given
            Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?

            The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon troop
            in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a true
            legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with the
            regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light company
            and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
            militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland company, as
            Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and either
            used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
            speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who were
            switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other Provincial
            units are known to have done this).

            Hope this helps.

            Regards,
            Brendan Morrissey
          • Gary Corrado
            Brendan: I have no specific information as to headgear being replaced. Years ago I saw a reference to a Ranger at Yorktown having his front plate worn down so
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2006
              Brendan:
              I have no specific information as to headgear being replaced.
              Years ago I saw a reference to a Ranger at Yorktown having his front
              plate worn down so much by their incessant campaigning that it was
              nothing more than a brim by that point. It makes sense, as Simcoe
              reported that while on campaign in Virginia the Regiment had so worn
              out its stores, that 50 men of the Regiment were "absolutely
              barefoot".
              So that cap reference makes some sense. Unfortunately, I lost the
              source for that observation.
              I can say that Simcoe was very happy to get those light infantry caps
              for all of the battalion companies.He hated those contract felt hats,
              calling them "miserable".He also left a clue as to whether he
              considered them a priority. He states that he received compliments
              from other officers on the appearance of the Rangers as a "light
              corps", making them all look like a light infantry corps.With the
              exception of the Grenadiers and Highlanders, the rest of the infantry
              would have the light caps: lights, rifles, and 8 battalion companies.
              Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
              was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the sleeved
              waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon after the
              formation of the Legion.
              It also appears the dragoons of both corps wore the same
              accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised troop of QR dragoons joined
              the Rangers in Virginia "without a single cavalry, appointment, or
              arms" according to Simcoe,their new equipment was instead sent to the
              Legion, by direct order of Cornwallis.The Legion were hurting for
              equipment at that point, also wearing white according to Simcoe, not
              green.So it is more of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon
              gear, rather than the other way around.

              Gary Corrado, QR


              -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
              >
              > Greg,
              >
              > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
              was
              > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
              > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
              The
              > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were probably
              > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
              > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not riflemen,
              as
              > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst he
              > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
              version
              > raised in Canada.
              >
              > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
              hats"
              > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
              > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part of
              > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to the
              > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was just
              > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
              by
              > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on what
              > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put their
              > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
              the
              > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or modified)
              > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
              much
              > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats given
              > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
              >
              > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
              troop
              > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
              true
              > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with the
              > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
              company
              > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
              > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland company,
              as
              > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
              either
              > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
              > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who were
              > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other Provincial
              > units are known to have done this).
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Brendan Morrissey
              >
            • bdtm2004
              ... Gary, Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim - do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours don t show
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
                > was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the
                > sleeved waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon
                > after the formation of the Legion. It also appears the dragoons of
                > both corps wore the same accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised
                > troop of QR dragoons joined the Rangers in Virginia "without a
                > single cavalry, appointment, or arms" according to Simcoe,their new
                > equipment was instead sent to the Legion, by direct order of
                > Cornwallis. The Legion were hurting for equipment at that point,
                > also wearing white according to Simcoe, not green. So it is more
                > of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon gear, rather than
                > the other way around.
                >

                Gary,

                Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim -
                do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours
                don't show any, but it was a widespread source of complaint about
                the "Keppel" light infantry cap.)

                As regards your comments above, we may be talking about different
                periods. I had gained the impression from some articles I'd read
                (but chiefly the Haarman one in JSAHR) that post-Yorktown - maybe the
                1782 clothing issue? - the green jacket with black cuffs and collars
                was sent out to both corps, possibly as an economy measure. I have a
                copy of Haarman's article somewhere and I shall try and dig it out to
                quote. Is the light dragoon troop you refer to that of Saunders, or
                is it another?

                Regards,
                Brendan Morrissey

                > Gary Corrado, QR
                >
                >
                > -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Greg,
                > >
                > > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
                > was
                > > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
                > > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
                > The
                > > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were
                probably
                > > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
                > > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not
                riflemen,
                > as
                > > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst
                he
                > > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
                > version
                > > raised in Canada.
                > >
                > > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
                > hats"
                > > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
                > > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part
                of
                > > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to
                the
                > > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was
                just
                > > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
                > by
                > > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on
                what
                > > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put
                their
                > > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
                > the
                > > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or
                modified)
                > > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
                > much
                > > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats
                given
                > > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
                > >
                > > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
                > troop
                > > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
                > true
                > > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with
                the
                > > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
                > company
                > > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
                > > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland
                company,
                > as
                > > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
                > either
                > > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
                > > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who
                were
                > > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other
                Provincial
                > > units are known to have done this).
                > >
                > > Hope this helps.
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > > Brendan Morrissey
                > >
                >
              • Gary Corrado
                Brendan: OK , the Haarman references are definitely 1782-83. I was referring to 1780-81. I agree with the black cuff for both corps in the 82-83 time frame.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 5, 2006
                  Brendan:

                  OK , the Haarman references are definitely 1782-83. I was referring to
                  1780-81. I agree with the black cuff for both corps in the 82-83 time
                  frame. Both corps were cantoned together(in Huntington, Long Island)
                  and I know the QR's were hurting for clothes and materials. I can
                  plainly see the junior officers now commanding each of those corps
                  getting together and economizing on one coat.
                  That dragoon troop who arrived in Virginia with basically nothing, was
                  Capt. Cooke's troop, late of the 17th dragoons.Saunders never left
                  Charleston till 1782, and seemed not to hurt for supplies. The
                  quartermaster of his troop was even doling out gear to other
                  Provincial dragoon troops being raised there.That quartermaster even
                  makes mention of teaching the carbine exercise while there,surprising
                  since carbines seem to have been in short supply.

                  Gary Corrado, QR

                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Corrado" <qrranger@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Your reference to the dragoons is interesting. Rather I thought it
                  > > was the other way around, where Tarleton got the idea of the
                  > > sleeved waistcoats from his prior campaigning with the Rangers soon
                  > > after the formation of the Legion. It also appears the dragoons of
                  > > both corps wore the same accoutrements. Soon after a newly raised
                  > > troop of QR dragoons joined the Rangers in Virginia "without a
                  > > single cavalry, appointment, or arms" according to Simcoe,their new
                  > > equipment was instead sent to the Legion, by direct order of
                  > > Cornwallis. The Legion were hurting for equipment at that point,
                  > > also wearing white according to Simcoe, not green. So it is more
                  > > of a case of the Legion wearing Ranger dragoon gear, rather than
                  > > the other way around.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Gary,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the info on headgear. Interesting that you mention a brim -
                  > do you think they would have added peaks? (The Murray watercolours
                  > don't show any, but it was a widespread source of complaint about
                  > the "Keppel" light infantry cap.)
                  >
                  > As regards your comments above, we may be talking about different
                  > periods. I had gained the impression from some articles I'd read
                  > (but chiefly the Haarman one in JSAHR) that post-Yorktown - maybe the
                  > 1782 clothing issue? - the green jacket with black cuffs and collars
                  > was sent out to both corps, possibly as an economy measure. I have a
                  > copy of Haarman's article somewhere and I shall try and dig it out to
                  > quote. Is the light dragoon troop you refer to that of Saunders, or
                  > is it another?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Brendan Morrissey
                  >
                  > > Gary Corrado, QR
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdtm2004" <BDTMorrissey@a...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Greg,
                  > > >
                  > > > Further to Gary's answers, it seems likely that green-faced-green
                  > > was
                  > > > the uniform throughout the unit's active period (ie from the
                  > > > Philadelphia campaign until their capture at Yorktown in 1781).
                  > > The
                  > > > main body of the regiment - the battalion companies - were
                  > probably
                  > > > dressed similarly to the grenadiers, but without the latter's
                  > > > distinctions. By the way, the centre companies were not
                  > riflemen,
                  > > as
                  > > > is sometimes stated - th:at is a mistake made by Lefferts whilst
                  > he
                  > > > was researching the unit and got it confused it with a later
                  > > version
                  > > > raised in Canada.
                  > > >
                  > > > Simcoe refers to leather caps replacing poor quality "contract
                  > > hats"
                  > > > (usually assumed to be either laced tricornes, or part-cocked -
                  > > > ie "slouch" - hats) around 1780-81. Also about that time, part
                  > of
                  > > > the regiment was supposed to have received similar uniforms to
                  > the
                  > > > British Legion - ie green faced black; I suspect that this was
                  > just
                  > > > the Light Dragoons, as the BL no longer had any integral infantry
                  > > by
                  > > > then. As to headgear, I'd be interested in Gary's thoughts on
                  > what
                  > > > would have been worn in the South, as many Regular units put
                  > their
                  > > > grenadier and light infantry caps into storage to protect them as
                  > > the
                  > > > war progressed and increasingly wore normal hats (plain or
                  > modified)
                  > > > in the field. Would the hussar and grenadier caps have been too
                  > > much
                  > > > in that heat? Would the regiment as a whole have donned hats
                  > given
                  > > > Simcoe's remarks about the previous batch?
                  > > >
                  > > > The entire unit usually served together (apart from one dragoon
                  > > troop
                  > > > in Charleston, SC, and another in NYC during 1780-81) and was a
                  > > true
                  > > > legionary corps in that respect. The grenadiers were also with
                  > the
                  > > > regiment in the South and Ewald leads that company, the light
                  > > company
                  > > > and one battalion company in a counter-attack against rifle-armed
                  > > > militia at Spencer's Ordinary in June 1781. The Highland
                  > company,
                  > > as
                  > > > Gary says, functioned primarily as a second light company and
                  > > either
                  > > > used Government sett from official stores, or may perhaps - my
                  > > > speculation here - have borrowed kilts from Regular troops who
                  > were
                  > > > switching to overalls (at least one, possibly two, other
                  > Provincial
                  > > > units are known to have done this).
                  > > >
                  > > > Hope this helps.
                  > > >
                  > > > Regards,
                  > > > Brendan Morrissey
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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