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Re: Santa & 3rd NY

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  • rgrokelley
    Howdy, ... was he ... into ... their ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in. Patrick O Kelley
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
      Howdy,

      > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it
      was he
      > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
      into
      > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
      their
      > side.

      Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.

      Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
      Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
      the Carolinas
      Available at Volume One 1771-1779
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
      Volume Two 1780
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
      Volume Three 1781
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
    • raynersteve
      Howdy back, Patrick; Aha! ... How bout this? Santa as a variant of Santee as in Santee river? If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
        Howdy back, Patrick;

        Aha!

        > All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas...

        How 'bout this?

        'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?

        If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
        missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

        Once words had gone around camp a couple of times, they came out all
        garbled. The British were infamous for that. Still are.

        Just a guess!

        Best regards,

        Steve
      • rgrokelley
        Howdy, ... Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee, Seretee,
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
          Howdy,

          > How 'bout this?
          >
          > 'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?
          >
          > If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
          > missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

          Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are
          variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee,
          Seretee, Seratee, Sattee. The name came before the Spaniards did.
          It means "people of the river" in their language.

          Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
          Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
          the Carolinas
          Available at Volume One 1771-1779
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
          Volume Two 1780
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
          Volume Three 1781
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
        • J. L. Bell on Revolutionary Boston
          Patrick O Kelley wrote The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there?
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
            Patrick O'Kelley wrote"
            <<>The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
            >> and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
            >> this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
            >> side.

            Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.>>

            Like Larry Maxwell, I lean toward the Livingston hypothesis, but I doubt
            we'll ever know for sure. There's no definite historical evidence either
            way because the poem was first published anonymously and no real
            manuscripts survive.

            "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before Christmas" was first published
            by a Troy newspaper in 1823. Livingston died five years later, never
            claiming it or collecting his verse. Moore started to claim the poem in
            the late 1830s and included it in a collection in 1844. As part of his
            claim, he wrote out a manuscript--one which matched some of the most
            recent published versions rather than the earliest.

            It's clear that both Livingston and Moore wrote Christmas poetry,
            Livingston more of it. Both men's families believed that their
            forefather wrote this particular poem, and after hearing about the
            opposing claim they put their reminiscences on paper. Unfortunately,
            these sorts of documents are dubious evidence. The children and
            grandchildren might well have remembered hearing other poems, then come
            to believe their forefather wrote this famous one, and unconsciously or
            consciously shaped their memories to support that belief.

            A lot of the evidence for Livingston appears in AUTHOR UNKNOWN, by
            Donald W. Foster:
            <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805063579/>

            One historian who disagrees is Steven Nissenbaum, author of THE BATTLE
            FOR CHRISTMAS:
            <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740384/>
            Nissenbaum's book came out before Foster's, so his counterarguments
            appear here:
            <http://common-place.dreamhost.com//vol-01/no-02/moore/index.shtml>

            The Livingston family has a website arguing their case:
            <http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/xmas/livingstonmoore/index.htm>

            Most of the arguments for Livingston over Moore are literary rather than
            historical. They involve comparing the two men's most common poetic
            metres, favored genres, attitudes toward Christmas and children, and
            little verbal tics like "all" for emphasis. The point I found most
            persuasive is that Livingston often wrote verse stories in anapestic
            tetrameter--the metre of "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before
            Christmas." Moore rarely used that form. I occasionally write verse
            myself, and I know some metres come much easier to me than others.

            Here's a lesson plan for students to investigate the controversy:
            <http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/02/lp290-04.shtml>

            And now back to our regularly scheduled century.

            J. L. Bell JnoLBell@...
          • Phil Weaver
            Yup, Larry is correct. There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit. Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems by
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
              Yup, Larry is correct.

              There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit.

              Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems
              by Clement Moore (all the others had his name on them). Also Moore &
              Livingston were friends.

              Henry Livingston Jr, was from Poughkeepsie, NY, and cousin to the more
              well known Livingstons from Rhinebeck, NY.

              He only served in 1775 Quebec campaign, but headed home early due to
              ill health. Thankfully he kept a journal that has since been
              published. It is of great use to researchers today.

              His property, known as "Locust Grove," eventually was the home of
              Samuel F. B. Morse, artist and inventor of Morse code.

              The site and Young-Morse house is open to the public and can be found
              on Route 9 about a mile or so south of the Mid-Hudson Bridge on the
              right hand side.

              They used to have an event every year called "Ghosts of Locust Grove"
              or some such -- I forget the exactname, where varios costumed
              interpreters roomed the halls of the house as differnt people who were
              associated with the site over time... I played Livingston two years in
              a row... The highlight being I got to read "A Visit from Saint
              Nicholas" ('twas the Night Before Christmas) to all hte kids..

              Livingstion is buried in a small family plot, surrounded by bushes,
              directly behind the mosoleum, in the Poughkeepsie Rural Cemetery, which
              is between my office and Locust Grove. Obviously the cememtery
              occupies some of the Livingston property...

              Phil Weaver, Proprietor
              Continental Consulting
              http://hometown.aol.com/ConConsul/




              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@v...> wrote:
              >
              > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was
              he
              > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
              into
              > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
              their
              > side.
              > Have a Blessed New Year!
              > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
              >
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