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Re: [Revlist] Re: santa

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  • robert a selig
    Salut, and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to each and everyone on this lis. Another example of what Patrick wrote from the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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      Salut,

      and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to
      each and everyone on this lis.

      Another example of what Patrick wrote from the Orderly Book for
      Major-General Lincoln’s Brigade 1781, Codex Eng 67, John Carter Brown
      Library, Providence, Rhode Island.
      In "General Orders" for Wednesday, 15 August 1781, the parole was "Staten
      Island" and the countersigns "Springfield Chatham".
      Since Springfield and Chatham were the true destinations of the
      Continental Army on the way to Yorktown, a decision that had been made on
      14 August but which was to be kept secret, there may even be a little bit
      of playing with fire here.
      Bob
      ==============
      On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:08:09 -0000 "rgrokelley" <goober.com@...>
      writes:
      ....
      > In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of current
      events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga" with the
      countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed by
      "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in the
      orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
      ....
      > Patrick O'Kelley

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • RON CARNEGIE
      Hello, Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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        Hello,

        Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

        Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

        Ron Carnegie
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: rgrokelley
        To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
        Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


        Howdy,

        > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
        > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
        > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
        > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
        > > English speaking folks?
        >
        >
        > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
        >Spanish or
        > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

        In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
        current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
        with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
        by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
        the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
        Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
        that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
        into use in the English world.

        Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
        Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
        the Carolinas
        Available at Volume One 1771-1779
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
        Volume Two 1780
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
        Volume Three 1781
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






        Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

        http://www.liming.org/revlist/

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      • Neal Hurst
        Ron and all This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me A female saint. App. ad. L. sancta, with
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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          Ron and all

          This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me

          A female saint.
          App. ad. L. sancta, with assimilation to a saint.
          a1450 Knt. de la Tour (1906) 5 For-yete not..to recomaunde you to the seintes and santas.

          Now this is what they have for santa clause:

          Santa Clause
          Orig. US
          a. In nursery language, the name of an imaginary personage, who is supposed, in the night before Christmas day, to bring presents for children, a stocking being hung up to receive his gifts. Also, a person wearing a red cloak or suit and a white beard, to simulate the supposed Santa Claus to children, esp. in shops or on shopping streets. Also transf., fig., attrib., and ellipt. as Santa.

          1773 N.Y. Gaz. 26 Dec. 3/1 Last Monday the Anniversary of St. Nicholas, otherwise called St. A Claus, was celebrated at Protestant-Hall. 1808 Salmagundi 25 Jan. 407 The noted St. Nicholas, vulgarly called Santaclausof all the saints in the kalendar the most venerated by true hollanders, and their unsophisticated descendants. 1821 Weekly Visitor IV. 262/1 For time immemorial the Dutch had a tradition, that there existed a being of no earthly birth, who was called Santa Claus. 1828 LONGFELLOW in Life (1891) I. 152 Gew-gaws for the Bifana, who acts here the same comedy for children that Santiclaus does in America. 1850 SUSAN WARNER Wide Wide World xxviii, I used to think that Santa Claus came down the chimney. 1863 C. M. YONGE Chr. Names I. 213 The Dutch element in New England has introduced Santa Klaus to many a young American who knows nothing of St. Nicholas or of any saint's day. 1872 B. HARTE (title) How Santa Claus came to Simpson's Bar. 1886 P. STAPLETON Major's Christmas 201
          Papas and mammas..planned the Santa Claus performance which was to come when the inquisitive eyes were closed in slumber. 1909 Chicago Daily News 10 Aug. 8/3 Uncle Sam is by no means an impartial Santa Claus. 1913 Sat. Even. Post 6 Dec. 50/1 If you want to act the part of Santa this Christmas. 1925 T. DREISER Amer. Trag. (1926) I. II. xxix. 356, I know something Santy has brought my Dad that he'll like. 1932 J. BEAMES Gateway vi. 108 You're just as kiddish as what you was when you'd be up at three in the mornin' to see what Santy had brung you. 1934 Amer. Mercury May 5/2 The Santa Claus theory of relief may be appropriate to a genuine emergency like an earthquake or a big fire. 1943 K. TENNANT Ride on Stranger iii. 24 Come on down, Ma. Come and see what Santa's brought you. 1956 H. GOLD Man who was not with It (1965) xxxii. 310 It was practically Christmas, too, with all the Santy Clauses peddling in the streets. 1957 [see GOOD-TIME a.]. 1973 ‘D. HALLIDAY’ Dolly & Starry Bird i. 2
          The Zodiac Trust is the Santa Claus of worldwide astronomy. A private foundation richly funded.., it makes grants to struggling centres. 1975 Times 10 Dec. 4/4 Being a man was a genuine occupational qualification for a Santa Claus. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline ix. 103 A huge, heavy-set man,..with a bushy unkempt Santa Claus beard, walked unsteadily toward their table. 1976 Scotsman 24 Dec. (Weekend Suppl.) 1/1 Stop rakin', Rikki. Santy says ye've had enough. 1976 Scottish Daily Express 27 Dec. 2/8 She was one of nine women charged with prostitution in Dallas, Texas, for propositioning Vice Squad officers disguised as Santas. 1977 Times 24 Dec. 16/5 Santa must have been updated over the years. Presumably girls hang out their tights now, instead of a solitary stocking.

          1773..there ya go

          Neal
          Taylor

          RON CARNEGIE <r.carnegie@...> wrote:
          Hello,

          Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

          Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

          Ron Carnegie
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: rgrokelley
          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
          Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


          Howdy,

          > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
          > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
          > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
          > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
          > > English speaking folks?
          >
          >
          > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
          >Spanish or
          > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

          In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
          current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
          with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
          by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
          the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
          Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
          that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
          into use in the English world.

          Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
          Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
          the Carolinas
          Available at Volume One 1771-1779
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
          Volume Two 1780
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
          Volume Three 1781
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






          Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

          http://www.liming.org/revlist/

          TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
          Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.



          SPONSORED LINKS School education Pre school education Subject


          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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        • raynersteve
          Greetings and a Happy New Year to All; That s a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to Xmass recently and that made me wonder... I
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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            Greetings and a Happy New Year to All;

            That's a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to
            "Xmass" recently and that made me wonder...

            I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West Indies? Activity
            at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any other entries
            have that sort of... flavor?

            Speaking of Saint John's Day, does anyone have any reference to AWI
            Germanic troops celebrating 'Johannestag'? I recall being told that it made
            Carnival look like an ice-cream social. <;)

            Best wishes for a happy and Prosperous New Year to All;

            Steve Rayner

            > > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
            > > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
            > > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
            > > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
            > > > English speaking folks?
          • Larry Maxwell
            The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into this a number
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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              The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
              and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
              this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
              side.
              Have a Blessed New Year!
              Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
            • rgrokelley
              Howdy, ... Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some other
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                Howdy,

                > I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West
                >Indies? Activity
                > at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any
                >other entries
                > have that sort of... flavor?

                Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around
                Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some
                other paroles and countersigns:

                Parole Cockspur Ctr. Sn. Tendar
                Parole Savannah Ctr. Sn. 51
                Parole Georgia Ctr. Sn. 97
                Parole Beauford – Ctr Sn Artillery
                Parole North Carolina C Sn. 200
                Parole Santa Ctr Sn. St. Johns

                All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas,
                including "St Johns" which is named after St. John's parish.
                What is interesting is the parole after the first general order
                given by General Lincoln. Benjamin Lincoln was from Massachussetts
                and his first order was telling the soldiers that there will be no
                more gambling of any sort. This most likely went over like a lead
                balloon with the South Carolinians, who would gamble on just about
                anything at the drop of a hat. So, the parole and countersign after
                that order was:

                Parole Puritan Ctr. Sn. Generated

                I wonder if Lincoln ever wrote about some of the things that
                Southerners considered normal, but he would find shocking (gambling,
                drinking, breaking the Sabbath, etc, etc.)

                Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                the Carolinas
                Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                Volume Two 1780
                http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                Volume Three 1781
                http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
              • rgrokelley
                Howdy, ... was he ... into ... their ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in. Patrick O Kelley
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                  Howdy,

                  > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it
                  was he
                  > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                  into
                  > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                  their
                  > side.

                  Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.

                  Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                  Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                  the Carolinas
                  Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                  Volume Two 1780
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                  Volume Three 1781
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                • raynersteve
                  Howdy back, Patrick; Aha! ... How bout this? Santa as a variant of Santee as in Santee river? If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                    Howdy back, Patrick;

                    Aha!

                    > All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas...

                    How 'bout this?

                    'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?

                    If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                    missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                    Once words had gone around camp a couple of times, they came out all
                    garbled. The British were infamous for that. Still are.

                    Just a guess!

                    Best regards,

                    Steve
                  • rgrokelley
                    Howdy, ... Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee, Seretee,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                      Howdy,

                      > How 'bout this?
                      >
                      > 'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?
                      >
                      > If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                      > missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                      Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are
                      variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee,
                      Seretee, Seratee, Sattee. The name came before the Spaniards did.
                      It means "people of the river" in their language.

                      Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                      Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                      the Carolinas
                      Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                      Volume Two 1780
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                      Volume Three 1781
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                    • J. L. Bell on Revolutionary Boston
                      Patrick O Kelley wrote The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there?
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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                        Patrick O'Kelley wrote"
                        <<>The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
                        >> and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
                        >> this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
                        >> side.

                        Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.>>

                        Like Larry Maxwell, I lean toward the Livingston hypothesis, but I doubt
                        we'll ever know for sure. There's no definite historical evidence either
                        way because the poem was first published anonymously and no real
                        manuscripts survive.

                        "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before Christmas" was first published
                        by a Troy newspaper in 1823. Livingston died five years later, never
                        claiming it or collecting his verse. Moore started to claim the poem in
                        the late 1830s and included it in a collection in 1844. As part of his
                        claim, he wrote out a manuscript--one which matched some of the most
                        recent published versions rather than the earliest.

                        It's clear that both Livingston and Moore wrote Christmas poetry,
                        Livingston more of it. Both men's families believed that their
                        forefather wrote this particular poem, and after hearing about the
                        opposing claim they put their reminiscences on paper. Unfortunately,
                        these sorts of documents are dubious evidence. The children and
                        grandchildren might well have remembered hearing other poems, then come
                        to believe their forefather wrote this famous one, and unconsciously or
                        consciously shaped their memories to support that belief.

                        A lot of the evidence for Livingston appears in AUTHOR UNKNOWN, by
                        Donald W. Foster:
                        <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805063579/>

                        One historian who disagrees is Steven Nissenbaum, author of THE BATTLE
                        FOR CHRISTMAS:
                        <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740384/>
                        Nissenbaum's book came out before Foster's, so his counterarguments
                        appear here:
                        <http://common-place.dreamhost.com//vol-01/no-02/moore/index.shtml>

                        The Livingston family has a website arguing their case:
                        <http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/xmas/livingstonmoore/index.htm>

                        Most of the arguments for Livingston over Moore are literary rather than
                        historical. They involve comparing the two men's most common poetic
                        metres, favored genres, attitudes toward Christmas and children, and
                        little verbal tics like "all" for emphasis. The point I found most
                        persuasive is that Livingston often wrote verse stories in anapestic
                        tetrameter--the metre of "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before
                        Christmas." Moore rarely used that form. I occasionally write verse
                        myself, and I know some metres come much easier to me than others.

                        Here's a lesson plan for students to investigate the controversy:
                        <http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/02/lp290-04.shtml>

                        And now back to our regularly scheduled century.

                        J. L. Bell JnoLBell@...
                      • Phil Weaver
                        Yup, Larry is correct. There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit. Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems by
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
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                          Yup, Larry is correct.

                          There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit.

                          Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems
                          by Clement Moore (all the others had his name on them). Also Moore &
                          Livingston were friends.

                          Henry Livingston Jr, was from Poughkeepsie, NY, and cousin to the more
                          well known Livingstons from Rhinebeck, NY.

                          He only served in 1775 Quebec campaign, but headed home early due to
                          ill health. Thankfully he kept a journal that has since been
                          published. It is of great use to researchers today.

                          His property, known as "Locust Grove," eventually was the home of
                          Samuel F. B. Morse, artist and inventor of Morse code.

                          The site and Young-Morse house is open to the public and can be found
                          on Route 9 about a mile or so south of the Mid-Hudson Bridge on the
                          right hand side.

                          They used to have an event every year called "Ghosts of Locust Grove"
                          or some such -- I forget the exactname, where varios costumed
                          interpreters roomed the halls of the house as differnt people who were
                          associated with the site over time... I played Livingston two years in
                          a row... The highlight being I got to read "A Visit from Saint
                          Nicholas" ('twas the Night Before Christmas) to all hte kids..

                          Livingstion is buried in a small family plot, surrounded by bushes,
                          directly behind the mosoleum, in the Poughkeepsie Rural Cemetery, which
                          is between my office and Locust Grove. Obviously the cememtery
                          occupies some of the Livingston property...

                          Phil Weaver, Proprietor
                          Continental Consulting
                          http://hometown.aol.com/ConConsul/




                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@v...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was
                          he
                          > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                          into
                          > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                          their
                          > side.
                          > Have a Blessed New Year!
                          > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                          >
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