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Re: santa

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  • rgrokelley
    Howdy, ... In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was Saratoga with the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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      Howdy,

      > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
      > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
      > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
      > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
      > > English speaking folks?
      >
      >
      > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
      >Spanish or
      > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

      In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
      current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
      with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
      by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
      the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
      Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
      that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
      into use in the English world.

      Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
      Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
      the Carolinas
      Available at Volume One 1771-1779
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
      Volume Two 1780
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
      Volume Three 1781
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
    • robert a selig
      Salut, and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to each and everyone on this lis. Another example of what Patrick wrote from the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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        Salut,

        and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to
        each and everyone on this lis.

        Another example of what Patrick wrote from the Orderly Book for
        Major-General Lincoln’s Brigade 1781, Codex Eng 67, John Carter Brown
        Library, Providence, Rhode Island.
        In "General Orders" for Wednesday, 15 August 1781, the parole was "Staten
        Island" and the countersigns "Springfield Chatham".
        Since Springfield and Chatham were the true destinations of the
        Continental Army on the way to Yorktown, a decision that had been made on
        14 August but which was to be kept secret, there may even be a little bit
        of playing with fire here.
        Bob
        ==============
        On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:08:09 -0000 "rgrokelley" <goober.com@...>
        writes:
        ....
        > In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of current
        events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga" with the
        countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed by
        "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in the
        orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
        ....
        > Patrick O'Kelley

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RON CARNEGIE
        Hello, Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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          Hello,

          Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

          Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

          Ron Carnegie
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: rgrokelley
          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
          Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


          Howdy,

          > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
          > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
          > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
          > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
          > > English speaking folks?
          >
          >
          > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
          >Spanish or
          > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

          In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
          current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
          with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
          by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
          the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
          Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
          that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
          into use in the English world.

          Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
          Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
          the Carolinas
          Available at Volume One 1771-1779
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
          Volume Two 1780
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
          Volume Three 1781
          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






          Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

          http://www.liming.org/revlist/

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          Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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        • Neal Hurst
          Ron and all This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me A female saint. App. ad. L. sancta, with
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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            Ron and all

            This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me

            A female saint.
            App. ad. L. sancta, with assimilation to a saint.
            a1450 Knt. de la Tour (1906) 5 For-yete not..to recomaunde you to the seintes and santas.

            Now this is what they have for santa clause:

            Santa Clause
            Orig. US
            a. In nursery language, the name of an imaginary personage, who is supposed, in the night before Christmas day, to bring presents for children, a stocking being hung up to receive his gifts. Also, a person wearing a red cloak or suit and a white beard, to simulate the supposed Santa Claus to children, esp. in shops or on shopping streets. Also transf., fig., attrib., and ellipt. as Santa.

            1773 N.Y. Gaz. 26 Dec. 3/1 Last Monday the Anniversary of St. Nicholas, otherwise called St. A Claus, was celebrated at Protestant-Hall. 1808 Salmagundi 25 Jan. 407 The noted St. Nicholas, vulgarly called Santaclausof all the saints in the kalendar the most venerated by true hollanders, and their unsophisticated descendants. 1821 Weekly Visitor IV. 262/1 For time immemorial the Dutch had a tradition, that there existed a being of no earthly birth, who was called Santa Claus. 1828 LONGFELLOW in Life (1891) I. 152 Gew-gaws for the Bifana, who acts here the same comedy for children that Santiclaus does in America. 1850 SUSAN WARNER Wide Wide World xxviii, I used to think that Santa Claus came down the chimney. 1863 C. M. YONGE Chr. Names I. 213 The Dutch element in New England has introduced Santa Klaus to many a young American who knows nothing of St. Nicholas or of any saint's day. 1872 B. HARTE (title) How Santa Claus came to Simpson's Bar. 1886 P. STAPLETON Major's Christmas 201
            Papas and mammas..planned the Santa Claus performance which was to come when the inquisitive eyes were closed in slumber. 1909 Chicago Daily News 10 Aug. 8/3 Uncle Sam is by no means an impartial Santa Claus. 1913 Sat. Even. Post 6 Dec. 50/1 If you want to act the part of Santa this Christmas. 1925 T. DREISER Amer. Trag. (1926) I. II. xxix. 356, I know something Santy has brought my Dad that he'll like. 1932 J. BEAMES Gateway vi. 108 You're just as kiddish as what you was when you'd be up at three in the mornin' to see what Santy had brung you. 1934 Amer. Mercury May 5/2 The Santa Claus theory of relief may be appropriate to a genuine emergency like an earthquake or a big fire. 1943 K. TENNANT Ride on Stranger iii. 24 Come on down, Ma. Come and see what Santa's brought you. 1956 H. GOLD Man who was not with It (1965) xxxii. 310 It was practically Christmas, too, with all the Santy Clauses peddling in the streets. 1957 [see GOOD-TIME a.]. 1973 ‘D. HALLIDAY’ Dolly & Starry Bird i. 2
            The Zodiac Trust is the Santa Claus of worldwide astronomy. A private foundation richly funded.., it makes grants to struggling centres. 1975 Times 10 Dec. 4/4 Being a man was a genuine occupational qualification for a Santa Claus. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline ix. 103 A huge, heavy-set man,..with a bushy unkempt Santa Claus beard, walked unsteadily toward their table. 1976 Scotsman 24 Dec. (Weekend Suppl.) 1/1 Stop rakin', Rikki. Santy says ye've had enough. 1976 Scottish Daily Express 27 Dec. 2/8 She was one of nine women charged with prostitution in Dallas, Texas, for propositioning Vice Squad officers disguised as Santas. 1977 Times 24 Dec. 16/5 Santa must have been updated over the years. Presumably girls hang out their tights now, instead of a solitary stocking.

            1773..there ya go

            Neal
            Taylor

            RON CARNEGIE <r.carnegie@...> wrote:
            Hello,

            Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

            Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

            Ron Carnegie
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rgrokelley
            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
            Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


            Howdy,

            > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
            > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
            > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
            > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
            > > English speaking folks?
            >
            >
            > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
            >Spanish or
            > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

            In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
            current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
            with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
            by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
            the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
            Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
            that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
            into use in the English world.

            Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
            Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
            the Carolinas
            Available at Volume One 1771-1779
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
            Volume Two 1780
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
            Volume Three 1781
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






            Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

            http://www.liming.org/revlist/

            TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
            Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.



            SPONSORED LINKS School education Pre school education Subject


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          • raynersteve
            Greetings and a Happy New Year to All; That s a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to Xmass recently and that made me wonder... I
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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              Greetings and a Happy New Year to All;

              That's a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to
              "Xmass" recently and that made me wonder...

              I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West Indies? Activity
              at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any other entries
              have that sort of... flavor?

              Speaking of Saint John's Day, does anyone have any reference to AWI
              Germanic troops celebrating 'Johannestag'? I recall being told that it made
              Carnival look like an ice-cream social. <;)

              Best wishes for a happy and Prosperous New Year to All;

              Steve Rayner

              > > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
              > > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
              > > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
              > > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
              > > > English speaking folks?
            • Larry Maxwell
              The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into this a number
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
                and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
                this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
                side.
                Have a Blessed New Year!
                Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
              • rgrokelley
                Howdy, ... Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some other
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                  Howdy,

                  > I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West
                  >Indies? Activity
                  > at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any
                  >other entries
                  > have that sort of... flavor?

                  Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around
                  Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some
                  other paroles and countersigns:

                  Parole Cockspur Ctr. Sn. Tendar
                  Parole Savannah Ctr. Sn. 51
                  Parole Georgia Ctr. Sn. 97
                  Parole Beauford – Ctr Sn Artillery
                  Parole North Carolina C Sn. 200
                  Parole Santa Ctr Sn. St. Johns

                  All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas,
                  including "St Johns" which is named after St. John's parish.
                  What is interesting is the parole after the first general order
                  given by General Lincoln. Benjamin Lincoln was from Massachussetts
                  and his first order was telling the soldiers that there will be no
                  more gambling of any sort. This most likely went over like a lead
                  balloon with the South Carolinians, who would gamble on just about
                  anything at the drop of a hat. So, the parole and countersign after
                  that order was:

                  Parole Puritan Ctr. Sn. Generated

                  I wonder if Lincoln ever wrote about some of the things that
                  Southerners considered normal, but he would find shocking (gambling,
                  drinking, breaking the Sabbath, etc, etc.)

                  Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                  Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                  the Carolinas
                  Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                  Volume Two 1780
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                  Volume Three 1781
                  http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                • rgrokelley
                  Howdy, ... was he ... into ... their ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in. Patrick O Kelley
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                    Howdy,

                    > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it
                    was he
                    > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                    into
                    > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                    their
                    > side.

                    Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.

                    Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                    Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                    the Carolinas
                    Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                    Volume Two 1780
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                    Volume Three 1781
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                  • raynersteve
                    Howdy back, Patrick; Aha! ... How bout this? Santa as a variant of Santee as in Santee river? If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                      Howdy back, Patrick;

                      Aha!

                      > All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas...

                      How 'bout this?

                      'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?

                      If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                      missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                      Once words had gone around camp a couple of times, they came out all
                      garbled. The British were infamous for that. Still are.

                      Just a guess!

                      Best regards,

                      Steve
                    • rgrokelley
                      Howdy, ... Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee, Seretee,
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
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                        Howdy,

                        > How 'bout this?
                        >
                        > 'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?
                        >
                        > If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                        > missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                        Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are
                        variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee,
                        Seretee, Seratee, Sattee. The name came before the Spaniards did.
                        It means "people of the river" in their language.

                        Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                        Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                        the Carolinas
                        Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                        Volume Two 1780
                        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                        Volume Three 1781
                        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                      • J. L. Bell on Revolutionary Boston
                        Patrick O Kelley wrote The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there?
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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                          Patrick O'Kelley wrote"
                          <<>The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
                          >> and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
                          >> this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
                          >> side.

                          Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.>>

                          Like Larry Maxwell, I lean toward the Livingston hypothesis, but I doubt
                          we'll ever know for sure. There's no definite historical evidence either
                          way because the poem was first published anonymously and no real
                          manuscripts survive.

                          "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before Christmas" was first published
                          by a Troy newspaper in 1823. Livingston died five years later, never
                          claiming it or collecting his verse. Moore started to claim the poem in
                          the late 1830s and included it in a collection in 1844. As part of his
                          claim, he wrote out a manuscript--one which matched some of the most
                          recent published versions rather than the earliest.

                          It's clear that both Livingston and Moore wrote Christmas poetry,
                          Livingston more of it. Both men's families believed that their
                          forefather wrote this particular poem, and after hearing about the
                          opposing claim they put their reminiscences on paper. Unfortunately,
                          these sorts of documents are dubious evidence. The children and
                          grandchildren might well have remembered hearing other poems, then come
                          to believe their forefather wrote this famous one, and unconsciously or
                          consciously shaped their memories to support that belief.

                          A lot of the evidence for Livingston appears in AUTHOR UNKNOWN, by
                          Donald W. Foster:
                          <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805063579/>

                          One historian who disagrees is Steven Nissenbaum, author of THE BATTLE
                          FOR CHRISTMAS:
                          <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740384/>
                          Nissenbaum's book came out before Foster's, so his counterarguments
                          appear here:
                          <http://common-place.dreamhost.com//vol-01/no-02/moore/index.shtml>

                          The Livingston family has a website arguing their case:
                          <http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/xmas/livingstonmoore/index.htm>

                          Most of the arguments for Livingston over Moore are literary rather than
                          historical. They involve comparing the two men's most common poetic
                          metres, favored genres, attitudes toward Christmas and children, and
                          little verbal tics like "all" for emphasis. The point I found most
                          persuasive is that Livingston often wrote verse stories in anapestic
                          tetrameter--the metre of "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before
                          Christmas." Moore rarely used that form. I occasionally write verse
                          myself, and I know some metres come much easier to me than others.

                          Here's a lesson plan for students to investigate the controversy:
                          <http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/02/lp290-04.shtml>

                          And now back to our regularly scheduled century.

                          J. L. Bell JnoLBell@...
                        • Phil Weaver
                          Yup, Larry is correct. There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit. Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems by
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
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                            Yup, Larry is correct.

                            There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit.

                            Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems
                            by Clement Moore (all the others had his name on them). Also Moore &
                            Livingston were friends.

                            Henry Livingston Jr, was from Poughkeepsie, NY, and cousin to the more
                            well known Livingstons from Rhinebeck, NY.

                            He only served in 1775 Quebec campaign, but headed home early due to
                            ill health. Thankfully he kept a journal that has since been
                            published. It is of great use to researchers today.

                            His property, known as "Locust Grove," eventually was the home of
                            Samuel F. B. Morse, artist and inventor of Morse code.

                            The site and Young-Morse house is open to the public and can be found
                            on Route 9 about a mile or so south of the Mid-Hudson Bridge on the
                            right hand side.

                            They used to have an event every year called "Ghosts of Locust Grove"
                            or some such -- I forget the exactname, where varios costumed
                            interpreters roomed the halls of the house as differnt people who were
                            associated with the site over time... I played Livingston two years in
                            a row... The highlight being I got to read "A Visit from Saint
                            Nicholas" ('twas the Night Before Christmas) to all hte kids..

                            Livingstion is buried in a small family plot, surrounded by bushes,
                            directly behind the mosoleum, in the Poughkeepsie Rural Cemetery, which
                            is between my office and Locust Grove. Obviously the cememtery
                            occupies some of the Livingston property...

                            Phil Weaver, Proprietor
                            Continental Consulting
                            http://hometown.aol.com/ConConsul/




                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@v...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was
                            he
                            > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                            into
                            > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                            their
                            > side.
                            > Have a Blessed New Year!
                            > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                            >
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