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Re: santa

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  • Ed St.Germain
    ... Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the Spanish or Portugese or Italian word for saint or holy ? Not that I have an answer, just
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31 9:22 PM
      > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
      > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
      > Countersign was "St. Johns".
      > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
      > English speaking folks?


      Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the Spanish or
      Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

      Not that I have an answer, just thinking out loud.

      Best regards,
      Ed
      --For Revolutionary War information on the internet, your first choice
      should be AmericanRevolution.org
    • rgrokelley
      Howdy, ... In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was Saratoga with the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
        Howdy,

        > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
        > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
        > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
        > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
        > > English speaking folks?
        >
        >
        > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
        >Spanish or
        > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

        In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
        current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
        with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
        by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
        the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
        Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
        that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
        into use in the English world.

        Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
        Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
        the Carolinas
        Available at Volume One 1771-1779
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
        Volume Two 1780
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
        Volume Three 1781
        http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
      • robert a selig
        Salut, and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to each and everyone on this lis. Another example of what Patrick wrote from the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
          Salut,

          and first of all: A very happy, healthy and successful New Year 2006 to
          each and everyone on this lis.

          Another example of what Patrick wrote from the Orderly Book for
          Major-General Lincoln’s Brigade 1781, Codex Eng 67, John Carter Brown
          Library, Providence, Rhode Island.
          In "General Orders" for Wednesday, 15 August 1781, the parole was "Staten
          Island" and the countersigns "Springfield Chatham".
          Since Springfield and Chatham were the true destinations of the
          Continental Army on the way to Yorktown, a decision that had been made on
          14 August but which was to be kept secret, there may even be a little bit
          of playing with fire here.
          Bob
          ==============
          On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:08:09 -0000 "rgrokelley" <goober.com@...>
          writes:
          ....
          > In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of current
          events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga" with the
          countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed by
          "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in the
          orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
          ....
          > Patrick O'Kelley

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RON CARNEGIE
          Hello, Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
            Hello,

            Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

            Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

            Ron Carnegie
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rgrokelley
            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
            Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


            Howdy,

            > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
            > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
            > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
            > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
            > > English speaking folks?
            >
            >
            > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
            >Spanish or
            > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

            In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
            current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
            with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
            by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
            the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
            Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
            that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
            into use in the English world.

            Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
            Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
            the Carolinas
            Available at Volume One 1771-1779
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
            Volume Two 1780
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
            Volume Three 1781
            http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






            Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

            http://www.liming.org/revlist/

            TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
            Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Neal Hurst
            Ron and all This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me A female saint. App. ad. L. sancta, with
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
              Ron and all

              This is what the OED says....most of which has been covered already but ill repost...dont yell at me

              A female saint.
              App. ad. L. sancta, with assimilation to a saint.
              a1450 Knt. de la Tour (1906) 5 For-yete not..to recomaunde you to the seintes and santas.

              Now this is what they have for santa clause:

              Santa Clause
              Orig. US
              a. In nursery language, the name of an imaginary personage, who is supposed, in the night before Christmas day, to bring presents for children, a stocking being hung up to receive his gifts. Also, a person wearing a red cloak or suit and a white beard, to simulate the supposed Santa Claus to children, esp. in shops or on shopping streets. Also transf., fig., attrib., and ellipt. as Santa.

              1773 N.Y. Gaz. 26 Dec. 3/1 Last Monday the Anniversary of St. Nicholas, otherwise called St. A Claus, was celebrated at Protestant-Hall. 1808 Salmagundi 25 Jan. 407 The noted St. Nicholas, vulgarly called Santaclausof all the saints in the kalendar the most venerated by true hollanders, and their unsophisticated descendants. 1821 Weekly Visitor IV. 262/1 For time immemorial the Dutch had a tradition, that there existed a being of no earthly birth, who was called Santa Claus. 1828 LONGFELLOW in Life (1891) I. 152 Gew-gaws for the Bifana, who acts here the same comedy for children that Santiclaus does in America. 1850 SUSAN WARNER Wide Wide World xxviii, I used to think that Santa Claus came down the chimney. 1863 C. M. YONGE Chr. Names I. 213 The Dutch element in New England has introduced Santa Klaus to many a young American who knows nothing of St. Nicholas or of any saint's day. 1872 B. HARTE (title) How Santa Claus came to Simpson's Bar. 1886 P. STAPLETON Major's Christmas 201
              Papas and mammas..planned the Santa Claus performance which was to come when the inquisitive eyes were closed in slumber. 1909 Chicago Daily News 10 Aug. 8/3 Uncle Sam is by no means an impartial Santa Claus. 1913 Sat. Even. Post 6 Dec. 50/1 If you want to act the part of Santa this Christmas. 1925 T. DREISER Amer. Trag. (1926) I. II. xxix. 356, I know something Santy has brought my Dad that he'll like. 1932 J. BEAMES Gateway vi. 108 You're just as kiddish as what you was when you'd be up at three in the mornin' to see what Santy had brung you. 1934 Amer. Mercury May 5/2 The Santa Claus theory of relief may be appropriate to a genuine emergency like an earthquake or a big fire. 1943 K. TENNANT Ride on Stranger iii. 24 Come on down, Ma. Come and see what Santa's brought you. 1956 H. GOLD Man who was not with It (1965) xxxii. 310 It was practically Christmas, too, with all the Santy Clauses peddling in the streets. 1957 [see GOOD-TIME a.]. 1973 ‘D. HALLIDAY’ Dolly & Starry Bird i. 2
              The Zodiac Trust is the Santa Claus of worldwide astronomy. A private foundation richly funded.., it makes grants to struggling centres. 1975 Times 10 Dec. 4/4 Being a man was a genuine occupational qualification for a Santa Claus. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline ix. 103 A huge, heavy-set man,..with a bushy unkempt Santa Claus beard, walked unsteadily toward their table. 1976 Scotsman 24 Dec. (Weekend Suppl.) 1/1 Stop rakin', Rikki. Santy says ye've had enough. 1976 Scottish Daily Express 27 Dec. 2/8 She was one of nine women charged with prostitution in Dallas, Texas, for propositioning Vice Squad officers disguised as Santas. 1977 Times 24 Dec. 16/5 Santa must have been updated over the years. Presumably girls hang out their tights now, instead of a solitary stocking.

              1773..there ya go

              Neal
              Taylor

              RON CARNEGIE <r.carnegie@...> wrote:
              Hello,

              Of course there is other coincedence that the counter sign is St John. Making a coincidence between the Spanish word and the Saint. It might still be telling a story however. You didn't give a date, but St. John's day does fall in December. Possibly a coincidence,maybe not is the fact that St. John is one of two patron Saints of the Masons.

              Looks like a perusal of the OED might be in order here for a date for the English word of Santa.

              Ron Carnegie
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rgrokelley
              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:08 PM
              Subject: [Revlist] Re: santa


              Howdy,

              > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
              > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
              > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
              > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
              > > English speaking folks?
              >
              >
              > Why does the parole have to refer to Santa Claus? Why not the
              >Spanish or
              > Portugese or Italian word for "saint" or "holy"?

              In this orderly book the paroles pretty much tell a story of
              current events. For example after Saratoga the parole was "Saratoga"
              with the countersign of "victory". Another one was "French" followed
              by "Alliance". There are no Portugese or Italian words anywhere in
              the orderly book, and the Spanish are still the big bad boogie men.
              Not to be trusted. Since it is mid December, it seems coincidental
              that the parole is "Santa". This made me wonder when that term came
              into use in the English world.

              Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
              Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
              the Carolinas
              Available at Volume One 1771-1779
              http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
              Volume Two 1780
              http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
              Volume Three 1781
              http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html






              Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at

              http://www.liming.org/revlist/

              TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
              Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.



              SPONSORED LINKS School education Pre school education Subject


              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • raynersteve
              Greetings and a Happy New Year to All; That s a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to Xmass recently and that made me wonder... I
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                Greetings and a Happy New Year to All;

                That's a very interesting question, Patrick; I came across a reference to
                "Xmass" recently and that made me wonder...

                I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West Indies? Activity
                at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any other entries
                have that sort of... flavor?

                Speaking of Saint John's Day, does anyone have any reference to AWI
                Germanic troops celebrating 'Johannestag'? I recall being told that it made
                Carnival look like an ice-cream social. <;)

                Best wishes for a happy and Prosperous New Year to All;

                Steve Rayner

                > > > I just came across a Parole and countersign for the 2nd South
                > > > Carolina Regiment in December 1778. The Parole was "Santa" the
                > > > Countersign was "St. Johns".
                > > > When did the fat guy in a red suit become known as "Santa" by
                > > > English speaking folks?
              • Larry Maxwell
                The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into this a number
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                  The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
                  and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
                  this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
                  side.
                  Have a Blessed New Year!
                  Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                • rgrokelley
                  Howdy, ... Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some other
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                    Howdy,

                    > I also wonder if the Orderly Book refers to islands in the West
                    >Indies? Activity
                    > at sea and on land was heating up there about this time. Do any
                    >other entries
                    > have that sort of... flavor?

                    Other entries within that week all dealt with the fighting around
                    Savannah. Savannah would fall at the end of December. Here are some
                    other paroles and countersigns:

                    Parole Cockspur Ctr. Sn. Tendar
                    Parole Savannah Ctr. Sn. 51
                    Parole Georgia Ctr. Sn. 97
                    Parole Beauford – Ctr Sn Artillery
                    Parole North Carolina C Sn. 200
                    Parole Santa Ctr Sn. St. Johns

                    All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas,
                    including "St Johns" which is named after St. John's parish.
                    What is interesting is the parole after the first general order
                    given by General Lincoln. Benjamin Lincoln was from Massachussetts
                    and his first order was telling the soldiers that there will be no
                    more gambling of any sort. This most likely went over like a lead
                    balloon with the South Carolinians, who would gamble on just about
                    anything at the drop of a hat. So, the parole and countersign after
                    that order was:

                    Parole Puritan Ctr. Sn. Generated

                    I wonder if Lincoln ever wrote about some of the things that
                    Southerners considered normal, but he would find shocking (gambling,
                    drinking, breaking the Sabbath, etc, etc.)

                    Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                    Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                    the Carolinas
                    Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                    Volume Two 1780
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                    Volume Three 1781
                    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                  • rgrokelley
                    Howdy, ... was he ... into ... their ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in. Patrick O Kelley
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                      Howdy,

                      > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it
                      was he
                      > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                      into
                      > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                      their
                      > side.

                      Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.

                      Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                      Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                      the Carolinas
                      Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                      Volume Two 1780
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                      Volume Three 1781
                      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                    • raynersteve
                      Howdy back, Patrick; Aha! ... How bout this? Santa as a variant of Santee as in Santee river? If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                        Howdy back, Patrick;

                        Aha!

                        > All of these paroles are named after a place in the Carolinas...

                        How 'bout this?

                        'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?

                        If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                        missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                        Once words had gone around camp a couple of times, they came out all
                        garbled. The British were infamous for that. Still are.

                        Just a guess!

                        Best regards,

                        Steve
                      • rgrokelley
                        Howdy, ... Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee, Seretee,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 1, 2006
                          Howdy,

                          > How 'bout this?
                          >
                          > 'Santa' as a variant of 'Santee' as in Santee river?
                          >
                          > If the Santee Native people or their river were named by a Spanish
                          > missionary, 'Santee' might have a root in Latin, as in 'blessed.'

                          Nah, the Santee folks were named by the Santee folks. There are
                          variations of the Santee Indians name, they are also called Zantee,
                          Seretee, Seratee, Sattee. The name came before the Spaniards did.
                          It means "people of the river" in their language.

                          Patrick O'Kelley http://www.2nc.org/
                          Author of "Nothing but Blood and Slaughter" The Revolutionary War in
                          the Carolinas
                          Available at Volume One 1771-1779
                          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1469.html
                          Volume Two 1780
                          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1707.html
                          Volume Three 1781
                          http://www.booklocker.com/books/1965.html
                        • J. L. Bell on Revolutionary Boston
                          Patrick O Kelley wrote The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he ... Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there?
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
                            Patrick O'Kelley wrote"
                            <<>The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was he
                            >> and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked into
                            >> this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on their
                            >> side.

                            Sounds like a good story. What evidence is there? Fill us in.>>

                            Like Larry Maxwell, I lean toward the Livingston hypothesis, but I doubt
                            we'll ever know for sure. There's no definite historical evidence either
                            way because the poem was first published anonymously and no real
                            manuscripts survive.

                            "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before Christmas" was first published
                            by a Troy newspaper in 1823. Livingston died five years later, never
                            claiming it or collecting his verse. Moore started to claim the poem in
                            the late 1830s and included it in a collection in 1844. As part of his
                            claim, he wrote out a manuscript--one which matched some of the most
                            recent published versions rather than the earliest.

                            It's clear that both Livingston and Moore wrote Christmas poetry,
                            Livingston more of it. Both men's families believed that their
                            forefather wrote this particular poem, and after hearing about the
                            opposing claim they put their reminiscences on paper. Unfortunately,
                            these sorts of documents are dubious evidence. The children and
                            grandchildren might well have remembered hearing other poems, then come
                            to believe their forefather wrote this famous one, and unconsciously or
                            consciously shaped their memories to support that belief.

                            A lot of the evidence for Livingston appears in AUTHOR UNKNOWN, by
                            Donald W. Foster:
                            <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805063579/>

                            One historian who disagrees is Steven Nissenbaum, author of THE BATTLE
                            FOR CHRISTMAS:
                            <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740384/>
                            Nissenbaum's book came out before Foster's, so his counterarguments
                            appear here:
                            <http://common-place.dreamhost.com//vol-01/no-02/moore/index.shtml>

                            The Livingston family has a website arguing their case:
                            <http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/xmas/livingstonmoore/index.htm>

                            Most of the arguments for Livingston over Moore are literary rather than
                            historical. They involve comparing the two men's most common poetic
                            metres, favored genres, attitudes toward Christmas and children, and
                            little verbal tics like "all" for emphasis. The point I found most
                            persuasive is that Livingston often wrote verse stories in anapestic
                            tetrameter--the metre of "A Visit from Saint Nicholas/Night Before
                            Christmas." Moore rarely used that form. I occasionally write verse
                            myself, and I know some metres come much easier to me than others.

                            Here's a lesson plan for students to investigate the controversy:
                            <http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/02/lp290-04.shtml>

                            And now back to our regularly scheduled century.

                            J. L. Bell JnoLBell@...
                          • Phil Weaver
                            Yup, Larry is correct. There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit. Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems by
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 13, 2006
                              Yup, Larry is correct.

                              There are numerous websites lobbying for the correct credit.

                              Bottom line is the poem was pubilished un creditied in a book of poems
                              by Clement Moore (all the others had his name on them). Also Moore &
                              Livingston were friends.

                              Henry Livingston Jr, was from Poughkeepsie, NY, and cousin to the more
                              well known Livingstons from Rhinebeck, NY.

                              He only served in 1775 Quebec campaign, but headed home early due to
                              ill health. Thankfully he kept a journal that has since been
                              published. It is of great use to researchers today.

                              His property, known as "Locust Grove," eventually was the home of
                              Samuel F. B. Morse, artist and inventor of Morse code.

                              The site and Young-Morse house is open to the public and can be found
                              on Route 9 about a mile or so south of the Mid-Hudson Bridge on the
                              right hand side.

                              They used to have an event every year called "Ghosts of Locust Grove"
                              or some such -- I forget the exactname, where varios costumed
                              interpreters roomed the halls of the house as differnt people who were
                              associated with the site over time... I played Livingston two years in
                              a row... The highlight being I got to read "A Visit from Saint
                              Nicholas" ('twas the Night Before Christmas) to all hte kids..

                              Livingstion is buried in a small family plot, surrounded by bushes,
                              directly behind the mosoleum, in the Poughkeepsie Rural Cemetery, which
                              is between my office and Locust Grove. Obviously the cememtery
                              occupies some of the Livingston property...

                              Phil Weaver, Proprietor
                              Continental Consulting
                              http://hometown.aol.com/ConConsul/




                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@v...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The family of Maj. Henry Livingston, Jr., of the 3rd NY, claim it was
                              he
                              > and not Moore who wrote The Night Before Christmas. I have looked
                              into
                              > this a number of times and belive the weight of evidence falls on
                              their
                              > side.
                              > Have a Blessed New Year!
                              > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                              >
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