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Re: [Revlist] Re: Copper pot

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  • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
    I m no metal smith, but it sure looks like the same shape as many American Civil War (and up to early 20th century) forms I ve seen. Cheers, John In a
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 4, 2005
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      I'm no metal smith, but it sure looks like the same shape as many American
      Civil War (and up to early 20th century) forms I've seen.

      Cheers,
      John

      In a message dated 8/4/2005 7:47:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,
      dbspear@... writes:

      I'm not positive (since I am not an expert) but this coffee pot looks
      more 19th century than 18th century to me. Am I correct metal smiths
      out there?


      John M. Johnston
      42d Grenr. Compy.
      There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
      TW, could you post (or direct us to) an image of a correct period coffee brewing pot? Cheers, John ... From: Tw Moran To:
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 4, 2005
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        TW, could you post (or direct us to) an image of a correct period
        coffee brewing pot?

        Cheers,
        John

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tw Moran <twmoran@...>
        To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:12:01 -0400
        Subject: [Revlist] Copper pot - right shape, wrong details

        On Thursday 04 August 2005 08:44 am, denspear wrote:
        > > Hand tinned, 1 Gallon Copper Coffee Pot Reproduction Item
        > number: 6550192530
        Ok, so we have found another of my hot buttons. ( Yah; I know so
        what is
        new. )
        There are many good craftsmen out there making items out of copper.
        ( Here
        it
        comes; Delete now ! ) There are using the construction methods of tin
        smiths.
        They can get the shape right ( or at least close as in this case. )
        In colonial America there were very few European trained copper
        smiths.
        ( 'Twas against the law for people with certain skills to leave
        England. )
        > The large problem is that most people 0do not know the difference
        between a
        coffee brewer and a coffee server. The pictured item is for brewing.
        Many
        think that the pot with the long slender spout that comes from the
        bottom is
        for brewing. It is not, it is for serving. The coffee is decanted from
        the
        brewer in to the server, thus leaving the grounds behind.
        In a true coper smithed pot; the seams would be brazed with brass
        not
        soldered with tin.
        As the 19th C. began tin plate was hard to come by, as England was
        the only
        good source. Copper could be imported now from Sweden and Germany. Were
        as
        before the Rev War it had been a banned import.
        People were willing to pay more for copper work, and so many tin
        smiths
        (some
        of whom had very little training in even that craft. ) began to make
        their
        tin patterns in copper.
        At the same time, early 19th C. Peck & Stow ( brass founders of the
        Liberty
        bell ) began to make and sell hand cranked machines to work sheet metal
        for
        the burgeoning U.S. tin smithing trade.
        If you look at the raised bands on this coffee brewer you will
        clearly see
        that they are machine turned.
        There is no thickness to the handle, and the bale goes in to a
        riveted strap

        rather than around a rivet coming through the strap.
        Small details that the public would not ever notice, but drive me
        to drink
        when those who make these items sware up and down that they are period
        correct: and not one of them has ever studied copper smithing, let
        alone done
        it.

        .

        > BTW Pam, I am also addicted to copperware, its lighter and more easy
        > to deal with than iron, pottery, or in some cases wood; and the
        > earlier the date you reenact, the more authentic it is (than cast iron
        > that is).
        Well: yes and no. By 1650 cast iron from England was coming fast
        and
        furious.
        Sheet iron pots and by our time tinned sheet iron were the most common
        cook
        ware. Tin plate was the tupper ware of the time.

        T
        >
        > Frau Spear
        >
        >




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      • Tw Moran
        ... Ok, so we have found another of my hot buttons. ( Yah; I know so what is new. ) There are many good craftsmen out there making items out of copper. ( Here
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 5, 2005
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          On Thursday 04 August 2005 08:44 am, denspear wrote:
          > > Hand tinned, 1 Gallon Copper Coffee Pot Reproduction Item
          > number: 6550192530
          Ok, so we have found another of my hot buttons. ( Yah; I know so what is
          new. )
          There are many good craftsmen out there making items out of copper. ( Here it
          comes; Delete now ! ) There are using the construction methods of tin smiths.
          They can get the shape right ( or at least close as in this case. )
          In colonial America there were very few European trained copper smiths.
          ( 'Twas against the law for people with certain skills to leave England. )
          > The large problem is that most people 0do not know the difference between a
          coffee brewer and a coffee server. The pictured item is for brewing. Many
          think that the pot with the long slender spout that comes from the bottom is
          for brewing. It is not, it is for serving. The coffee is decanted from the
          brewer in to the server, thus leaving the grounds behind.
          In a true coper smithed pot; the seams would be brazed with brass not
          soldered with tin.
          As the 19th C. began tin plate was hard to come by, as England was the only
          good source. Copper could be imported now from Sweden and Germany. Were as
          before the Rev War it had been a banned import.
          People were willing to pay more for copper work, and so many tin smiths (some
          of whom had very little training in even that craft. ) began to make their
          tin patterns in copper.
          At the same time, early 19th C. Peck & Stow ( brass founders of the Liberty
          bell ) began to make and sell hand cranked machines to work sheet metal for
          the burgeoning U.S. tin smithing trade.
          If you look at the raised bands on this coffee brewer you will clearly see
          that they are machine turned.
          There is no thickness to the handle, and the bale goes in to a riveted strap
          rather than around a rivet coming through the strap.
          Small details that the public would not ever notice, but drive me to drink
          when those who make these items sware up and down that they are period
          correct: and not one of them has ever studied copper smithing, let alone done
          it.

          .

          > BTW Pam, I am also addicted to copperware, its lighter and more easy
          > to deal with than iron, pottery, or in some cases wood; and the
          > earlier the date you reenact, the more authentic it is (than cast iron
          > that is).
          Well: yes and no. By 1650 cast iron from England was coming fast and furious.
          Sheet iron pots and by our time tinned sheet iron were the most common cook
          ware. Tin plate was the tupper ware of the time.

          T
          >
          > Frau Spear
          >
          >
        • sherpadoug
          Now I am confused. When did people start using tin coated iron or tin coated steel for household goods? Family history has it that my grandfather put food on
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 6, 2005
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            Now I am confused. When did people start using tin coated iron or tin
            coated steel for household goods?
            Family history has it that my grandfather put food on the table during
            the depression by making small houshold goods from tin cans. I
            remember as a kid that Grampa still had his tinsmithing tools and a
            hoard of "real" tin cans. These cans were mostly from canned fruits,
            vegtables and fish (Zeplin brand tomatoes was a memorable name), and
            they were solid tin with no steel or iron. They cut easily, could be
            melted with a hand torch, and would not hold a magnet.
            I had assumed 18th century tinware would also be pure tin and it was
            just modern confusion that led to reproductions being made from tin
            coated steel. Copper pots would be coated with tin to protect them
            from spoiling acidic foods. And I suppose iron pots could be tinned
            also to reduce rusting. But would things like candle sticks or
            cartridge boxes be made from tin or tinned iron?

            Sherpa Doug
          • avalonf@bcpl.net
            Doug Here is some info I found on the internet: Tin is one of the oldest metals known by man. There are domestic utensils and arms made of brass (copper with
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 6, 2005
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              Doug

              Here is some info I found on the internet:

              "Tin is one of the oldest metals known by man. There are domestic
              utensils and arms made of brass (copper with about 15% of tin), dating
              from 3500 B.C.. The Phoenicians had a very important role in the spread
              of brass utensils due to its commercial trades with Britain, Spain and
              the Middle East. Pliny referred, in 49 A.D., to the existence of tin and
              lead alloys, what we now know as solder, as well as recipients of tinned
              copper. Tinned iron was only developed in the 14th century in Bohemia,
              and tinned steel appeared only in the 17th century."

              For more in depth history, go to
              http://www.tinplateworkers.co.uk/history.html

              When you speak of "real" tin cans, you in fact are speaking of tin plate
              on steel. Pure tin is very soft, and has many uses, mostly as an
              alloying material, such as in brass, or for plating stronger metals.

              Copper (and copper alloy) utensils are regularly tin coated to protect
              food consumers, as acidic foods can react with the copper to produce
              poisonous compounds. When you refer to coating iron pots, I think you
              are NOT referring to cast iron pots, but again, tin plating on sheet
              iron or steel to curtail rusting. And the candle sticks and cartridge
              canisters were indeed made of the same plated sheet products.

              I'm sure that some of the tinsmiths (or former tinsmiths) on this list
              will have more to add.

              --
              John White
              Avalon Forge
              Baltimore
              "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
              http://www.avalonforge.com





              sherpadoug wrote:

              >Now I am confused. When did people start using tin coated iron or tin
              >coated steel for household goods?
              >Family history has it that my grandfather put food on the table during
              >the depression by making small houshold goods from tin cans. I
              >remember as a kid that Grampa still had his tinsmithing tools and a
              >hoard of "real" tin cans. These cans were mostly from canned fruits,
              >vegtables and fish (Zeplin brand tomatoes was a memorable name), and
              >they were solid tin with no steel or iron. They cut easily, could be
              >melted with a hand torch, and would not hold a magnet.
              >I had assumed 18th century tinware would also be pure tin and it was
              >just modern confusion that led to reproductions being made from tin
              >coated steel. Copper pots would be coated with tin to protect them
              >from spoiling acidic foods. And I suppose iron pots could be tinned
              >also to reduce rusting. But would things like candle sticks or
              >cartridge boxes be made from tin or tinned iron?
              >
              >Sherpa Doug
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at
              >
              >http://www.liming.org/revlist/
              >
              >TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
              >Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              John White
              Avalon Forge
              Baltimore
              "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
              http://www.avalonforge.com
            • Tw Moran
              Grampa still had his tinsmithing tools and a hoard of real tin cans. These cans were mostly from canned fruits, vegetables and fish (Zeplin brand tomatoes
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 6, 2005
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                Grampa still had his tinsmithing tools and a
                hoard of "real" tin cans. These cans were mostly from canned fruits,
                vegetables and fish (Zeplin brand tomatoes was a memorable name), and
                they were solid tin with no steel or iron. They cut easily, could be
                melted with a hand torch, and would not hold a magnet.

                Now I will have to do even more research. It is possible that during the war
                that cans were made form pure tin, though tin was a war material.

                But would things like candle sticks or
                cartridge boxes be made from tin or tinned iron?

                Ok: little is made from pure tin. way to soft, way to expensive. Pewter is
                what we call it when lead has been use to cheapen the mix Copper and silver
                have been used from biblical times to make tin harder. This form of pewter is
                hard, shiny and ofttimes referred to as queens pewter and poor mans silver.
                From Roman times beaten iron sheet has been used for all kinds of things.
                Lanterns, lamps. fire pits, cooking pots.
                The problem is that iron rusts and men sought ways to retard the rusting:
                Paint, wax. varnish. You name it and it was tried.
                Tinning was discovered but it was a difficult process to tin an item already
                made.
                About 1450, in Germany they began to make iron sheets and tin them and ship
                them to the iron monger to make things out of, rather then each iron monger
                tying to tin his own sheets.
                Thus began the modern process of making things from tin plated sheet iron.
                Not to be confused with hammered or cast pewter work.
                By the 1600s the English finally got over their political and governmental
                problems and established their own Tin Plate industry. As they had better tin
                ore and a very good supply of Welch charcoal iron; the English quickly became
                the world leader in the manufacturing of tin plated sheet iron.
                Tin plate, or just tin ware ( as it was commonly called ) was literally the
                tupper ware of the day, right up to the invention of hydro-carbon plastics.
                How many of you remember your maple syrup coming in little log cabins made of
                tin plate? Am I that old?

                So back to the question: Would things like candle sticks be made from tin or
                tinned iron? Well: both; There was cast and hammered pewter candle sticks and
                there were tinned sheet iron candle sticks.

                Would things like cartridge boxes be made from tin or tinned iron?
                The cartridge box liner was made of tin plated iron.

                As to Grandfathers tin cans; I don't have an answer, but have faith I will
                find out.
                Tw
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