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Re: ZULU

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  • gstk1776
    Dear List, For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period...... Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead Born 30th September 1758, educated
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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      Dear List,

      For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......

      Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead

      Born 30th September 1758, educated Winchester; entered Army aged 15.
      62nd Foot:
      Ensign - 1st June 1774; Lieutenant - 3rd March 1776 (wounded and
      captured at Saratoga); Captain - 30 May 1786; Lieutenant Colonel -
      26th November 1794 (half pay - 1800).
      126th Foot, Lochaber (Cameron's) Fencible Infantry:
      Colonel - 1st January 1801.
      Major General 25th April 1808; Lieutenant General 4th June 1813.
      Created Baronet - 19 February 1806; died 18 May 1822.

      And talking of "Gibsoning" history.....

      * The 1879 Bromhead was almost totally deaf, which was why he had
      been left in charge at Rorke's Drift; both he and Chard remained in
      the Army for many years (despite their constant anti-war dialogues in
      the film).
      * Colour Sergeant Bourne was only 24.
      * Commissary Dalton - a former infantry sergeant-major, who had been
      trained in the construction of field defences - designed the "mealie
      bag redoubt".
      * Reprobate Pvte Henry Hook was, in real life, tee-total and a
      Methodist lay preacher, and left the Army with an exemplary record (I
      believe his family threatened to sue the makers of the film).
      * Only a dozen men were Welsh; most were English from the Midlands,
      as the 24th Foot was the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment in 1879 and only
      became the South Wales Borderers in the Cardwell Reform of 1881.
      * It is likely that everyone was bearded (shaving was abandoned
      throughout Chelmsford's force to conserve water).
      * The Zulus attacking Rorke's Drift were not from Isandlwhana; they
      were a separate group detached from the main body specifically to
      attack Rorke's Drift; although they had about 500 firearms, most were
      obsolete types and not taken from the dead of the 1/24th.

      Hope that was of interest.

      Brendan Morrissey
    • Jay Callaham
      ... From: gstk1776 To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU ... So, the movie
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
        To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
        Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


        > Dear List,
        >
        > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
        >
        > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
        >
        > Born 30th September 1758,

        So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
        beside Wolfe at Quebec."

        Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
        reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
        "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

        And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

        And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
        Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

        Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

        Cheers!

        Jay
        Cm Gds
        4th Coy, Bde of Guards
      • davisr1@lee.army.mil
        There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have used frequently to illustrate to this less than desirably disciplined modern army ,
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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          There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have
          used frequently to illustrate to this "less than desirably disciplined
          modern army", that it is battlefield discipline that is so imperative to
          winning. The scene was along the perimeter as this company of terrified
          British soldiers are awaiting another attack by 500-godzillion Zulu's. The
          Color Sergeant is strutting the line and remarks to one soldier "Jones
          (whatever the soldier's name was), button your pocket!" The fear of the
          troops was immediately diverted from the enemy to the
          retribution/disciplinary control of the Color Sergeant, ergo: "the immediate
          and unhesitating response to orders." The well trained and disciplined
          soldier can and will respond to leaders orders, even under the most severe
          of circumstances. This later played out (in the movie) when the Brits were
          ordered to attack with their "rolling fire" formation - though totally
          outmanned, the trained discipline gave them an overwhelming fire-power
          advantage over their out-numbering enemy. An unbuttoned pocket may seem to
          be an inconsequential observation, however it is not the pocket, but the
          response to the correction -- the order -- that is imperative. We can find
          this all over our period of the Rev War, and most other wars.

          Bob D.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jay Callaham [mailto:callaham@...]
          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
          To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
          Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


          > Dear List,
          >
          > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
          >
          > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
          >
          > Born 30th September 1758,

          So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
          beside Wolfe at Quebec."

          Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
          reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
          "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

          And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

          And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
          Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

          Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

          Cheers!

          Jay
          Cm Gds
          4th Coy, Bde of Guards



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Welsh
          Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially. ... From:
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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            Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower
            caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
            To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:15 AM
            Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


            > Well, let's see: linear tactics? How about British Army fighting locals
            who
            > want independence, and for occupation forces to get out? Everything's
            connected
            > somehow, you know.
            >
            > On the other hand, this time, the British Army didn't get it's butt kicked
            > this time. But they did eventually lose that colony, too. Some lessons
            have to
            > be learned over and over again (have we learned yet?)
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
            member photos, FAQ, etc., at
            >
            > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
            >
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            >
            >
          • John Welsh
            The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke s drift and the campaign read Washing of
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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              The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig
              Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke's drift and the campaign read
              Washing of the Spears.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
              To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


              > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
              > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In
              reality,
              > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
              > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more
              miraculous.
              >
              > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so
              he
              > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the
              indians.
              >
              > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born
              in
              > a Welsh village.
              >
              > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
              > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
              >
              > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
              > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just
              prior to a
              > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range
              sights.
              >
              > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect."
              Could
              > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
              member photos, FAQ, etc., at
              >
              > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
              >
              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
              > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • eric_schnitzer@nps.gov
              I don t have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the major of
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                I don't have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our
                Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the
                major of the Regiment, Boardman Bromhead. Well, make that major of the
                regiment up until c. 1770/71 or so. Probably an uncle...or his father.
                Little Gonville, age 12, entered the officer corps at that time as the
                quarter master of the regiment (he was later commissioned at about age 15
                as an ensign).

                I am,
                Your Most Humble Servant,
                Eric Schnitzer
                Lieutenant, 62d Regiment of Foot and ADC

                "The rebel officers' behavior is admirable; their discipline is just as good
                as though they belonged to real regiments and were real soldiers."

                -Brigadier WR von Gall to The Prince of Hessen-Hanau,
                Cambridge MA, March 1778


                >
                > So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his
                > grandfather "knelt beside Wolfe at Quebec."
                >

                Jay and List,

                Unless of course he was one of the guys who bought a place in
                Benjamin West's famous painting (isn't that a crib just behind the
                Indian next to Wolfe's feet????).

                Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                America with his regiment.

                Regards

                Brendan Morrissey

                ps: I think that the cry everyone is talking about is "Usuthu!"
                ("Kill!").
              • John White
                Joe The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo s chiefdom. Go to
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                  Joe

                  The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet
                  search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo's chiefdom. Go to
                  http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Rotunda/2209/Zululand.html

                  If I recall correctly, the USUTHU info was passed on to me by a fellow
                  reenactor who spent several years with our state department working in
                  Zululand.

                  (We REALLY should get back to the 18th century), he said somewhat
                  reluctantly.


                  John White
                  Avalon Forge
                  Baltimore
                  "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
                  http://www.avalonforge.com

                  JOEWHITNEY@... wrote:
                  > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
                  > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In reality,
                  > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
                  > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more miraculous.
                  >
                  > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so he
                  > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the indians.
                  >
                  > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born in
                  > a Welsh village.
                  >
                  > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
                  > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
                  >
                  > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
                  > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just prior to a
                  > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range sights.
                  >
                  > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect." Could
                  > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
                • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                  ... Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it s a bit pricy. ... It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for Natal
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, GuardsOfc@n... wrote:
                    > All this talk about Zulu make me want to get out one of Martin-
                    Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it's a
                    bit pricy.
                    >
                    > Winston S. Stone
                    > Capt. & Lt. Col.
                    > 1st Guards
                    > Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense


                    It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for
                    Natal Province. $2.50 isn't bad for one of those rounds.

                    Mike Barbieri
                    Whitcomb's Corps
                  • joewhitney1
                    I ll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a fascinating book called
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                      I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                      lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                      fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                      analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                      battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                      in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                      the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                      distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                      casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.

                      I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                      Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                      revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                      thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                      100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                      Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                      learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                      Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                      emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                      sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                      the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                      improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                      was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                      the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                      more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                      great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                      show up late in the war, that's another matter.

                      In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                      Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                      actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                    • Ernie
                      Hello, How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                        Hello,

                        How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I
                        know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the 1770's. Is there a way I can find
                        out about this man without troubling anyone too much?

                        Thank you,
                        Ernie Bartis

                        On 2 Jan 2004 at 19:26, gstk1776 wrote:
                        > Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                        > Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                        > America with his regiment.
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > Brendan Morrissey
                      • John Welsh
                        Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous compared
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it
                          as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous
                          compared to previous actions. The first "modern" war. The Napoleonic battles
                          were horrible too, but there were more "Waterloos" fought in the Civil War
                          than the Napoleonic wars. But weaponry does decide tactical considerations.
                          The musket made pike phalanxes obsolete and even spelled the doom of cavalry
                          charges, as the long bow successfully depleted the ranks of French knights
                          at Crecy and Agincourt. During the Civil War cavalry played a relatively
                          minor role overall and infantry regiments were not obliged to form squares
                          against them. But tactics seems to lag behind new technological
                          considerations as generals generally fight the last war they were in. During
                          the "charge of the light brigade" against fixed Russian artillery batteries,
                          the British and French staff watched in horror. The French general Canrobert
                          remarked: "C'est magnifique. Mais ce n'est pas la guerre." (It's magnificent
                          but it's not war.")

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                          To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                          Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                          > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                          > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                          > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                          > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                          > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                          > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                          > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                          > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                          > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.
                          >
                          > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                          > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                          > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                          > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                          > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.
                          >
                          > Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                          > learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                          > Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                          > emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                          > sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                          > the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                          > improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                          > was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                          > the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                          > more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                          > great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                          > show up late in the war, that's another matter.
                          >
                          > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                          > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                          > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                          member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                          >
                          > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                          > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • hm95thfoot
                          ... massacres. ... would ... While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                            > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)

                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                            > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                            > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                            >
                            > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                            massacres.
                            > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                            would
                            > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                            > >
                            >

                            While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                            big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                            disease.

                            Roger Fuller
                          • wa3ngg@aol.com
                            I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having accepted the conventional wisdom concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled muskets. I
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                              I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having
                              accepted the "conventional wisdom" concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled
                              muskets. I have a couple of questions. In a message dated 1/2/2004 4:49:08 PM
                              Eastern Standard Time, JOEWHITNEY@... writes:

                              > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                              > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                              > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                              > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                              > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                              > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!) and
                              > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                              > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                              > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.


                              I'm a bit confused. 127,000 sounds significantly greater than the casualties
                              in AWI battles. What are the comparative rates based on population at risk?

                              >
                              > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                              > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                              > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                              > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                              > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                              I can appreciate the 50 to 100 yards, that makes perfect sense, if only in
                              view of the "close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver" philosophy.
                              Also, having participated in 1000 yard competition, I certainly agree that it is
                              unlikely that significant numbers of combatants would have been striking man
                              sized targets at 1,000 yards with any kind of useful consistency. But if
                              rifled muskets were more accurate at extreme ranges, would they not also be more
                              accurate at close range?

                              Please don't misunderstand me. This isn't criticism, I'm truly interested in
                              this.
                              Tnx,
                              Bill Deutermann


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John Welsh
                              There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI. A
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried
                                at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI.
                                A victory! A million French soldiers died during that world conflict. I
                                suppose the majority were felled by the incessant artillery bombardments
                                holding the line. The Germans took it too.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "hm95thfoot" <fullerfamily@...>
                                To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:56 PM
                                Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                                > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                                > > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)
                                >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                                > > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                                > >
                                > > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                                > massacres.
                                > > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                                > would
                                > > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                                > big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                                > disease.
                                >
                                > Roger Fuller
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                                member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                >
                                > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                >
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                                > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                >
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                                >
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                                >
                              • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                List Folke, Another note dealing with the movie ZULU which has become something of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                  List Folke,

                                  Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                  of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                  lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                  Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                  Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                  latter is just about to begin.

                                  Mike Barbieri
                                  Whitcomb's Corps
                                • Rev. Joel Osborne
                                  A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah! Pax Christi Fr. Guido Fanning aka Rev. Joel Osborne Fanning s RGMT
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                    A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah!

                                    Pax Christi
                                    Fr. Guido Fanning
                                    aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                    Fanning's RGMT

                                    Joyce & Mike Barbieri wrote:

                                    > List Folke,
                                    >
                                    > Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                    > of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                    > lenient about discussion of the topic.
                                    >
                                    > Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                    > Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                    > latter is just about to begin.
                                    >
                                    > Mike Barbieri
                                    > Whitcomb's Corps
                                    >
                                    > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                    >
                                    > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                    > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                    ... hip, huzzah! ... And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who, armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Joel Osborne"
                                      <joel.osborne7@v...> wrote:
                                      > A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip,
                                      hip, huzzah!
                                      >
                                      > Pax Christi
                                      > Fr. Guido Fanning
                                      > aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                      > Fanning's RGMT


                                      And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who,
                                      armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                      homeland against the foreign invader, charged over open ground into
                                      the volley fire and bayonets of British regulars. uSuthu! uSuthu!
                                      uSuthu!

                                      Mike Barbieri
                                      Whitcomb's Corps
                                    • Joseph Ruckman
                                      ... Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that leniency? Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that might be
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                        >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                        Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that
                                        leniency?

                                        Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                        might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                        a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...

                                        ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...

                                        Joseph Ruckman
                                        Revlist Advisory Board
                                      • Ketcham, Greg
                                        ... Hmmm, Joseph? Don tcha remember the Meaning of Life: Part Three-Fighting with each other ? Specifically, John Cleese blithely strolling through the Zulu
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          Hmmm, Joseph? Don'tcha remember "the Meaning of Life: Part
                                          Three-Fighting with each other"? Specifically, John Cleese blithely
                                          strolling through the Zulu attack, calmly shaving as heads are cleaved
                                          from bodies, etc?

                                          So....in their own way, they did :-)

                                          Greg Ketcham

                                          Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                          might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                          a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                        • Dave White
                                          ... topic. ... that ... produced ... Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of Life.... Dave White 4th Regt of Foot
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Ruckman" <malruck@a...> wrote:
                                            > >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the
                                            topic.
                                            >
                                            > Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on
                                            that
                                            > leniency?
                                            >
                                            > Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                            > might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never
                                            produced
                                            > a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                            >
                                            > ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...
                                            >
                                            > Joseph Ruckman
                                            > Revlist Advisory Board

                                            Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of
                                            Life....

                                            Dave White
                                            4th Regt of Foot
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