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Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU

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  • JOEWHITNEY@AOL.COM
    My favorite quote wasn t in the movie. It was from Chard s report to Queen Victoria: Major Spalding told me he was going over to Helpmakaar, and would see
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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      My favorite quote wasn't in the movie. It was from Chard's report to Queen
      Victoria:

      Major Spalding told me he was going over to Helpmakaar, and would see about
      getting it (Capt. Rainforth's Company) down at once. Just as I was about to
      ride away he said to me 'Which of you is senior, you or Bromhead?" I said " I
      don't know" - he went back to his tent, looked at the Army List, and coming back,
      said "I see you are senior, so you will be in charge, although of course,
      nothing will happen, and I shall be back again this evening early."


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • izzy
      ah, yes, ZULU-- back in 1986 in High School when girls my age were watching, um, whatever were the hot chick-flicks of 1986... i was watching ZULU... and Monty
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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        ah, yes, ZULU-- back in 1986 in High School when girls my age were
        watching, um, whatever were the hot chick-flicks of 1986... i was
        watching ZULU... and Monty Python movies...

        a few years back at a friend's house, her dad was watching ZULU in
        the other room-- i could identify it from the Zulu chanting ("hang
        on... is that ZULU?")

        found it at Walgreen's on DVD for about $5

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bvogler" <bvogler@k...> wrote:
        > List-
        > Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on
        tonight at 8 pm on AMC.
        >
        > "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
        > "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."
        >
        > And so it goes,
        > Bob V.
        > Pensioner
        > Guards
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JOEWHITNEY@AOL.COM
        Speaking of Monty Python, this has nothing to do with the Revolutionary War, other than it s a subject dear to reenactors of all time periods, but Eric Idle is
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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          Speaking of Monty Python, this has nothing to do with the Revolutionary
          War, other than it's a subject dear to reenactors of all time periods, but
          Eric Idle is hoping to bring to Broadway in Spring 2005 the musical
          version of the Holy Grail, tentatively titled "Spamelot".

          Of course, they could have spoofed the Revolution, but Mel Gibson beat
          them to it. So we should soon be able to see real live English Knigghets
          running around on stage. It should be quite a treat (oops, I spoke the
          word that cannot be spoken!)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
          ... tonight at 8 pm on AMC. ... To bring this topic back to relevance within this list, at the bicentennial of Monmouth, the organizers set up a huge screen to
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bvogler" <bvogler@k...> wrote:
            > List-
            > Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on
            tonight at 8 pm on AMC.
            >
            > "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
            > "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."


            To bring this topic back to relevance within this list, at the
            bicentennial of Monmouth, the organizers set up a huge screen to show
            a movie for the participants--we had no idea what movie. About three
            notes of the opening score of "ZULU" came out of the speakers before
            the crowd let out a huge cheer. The next day, as the Crown forces
            column moved past the Americans on their way out to the field, droves
            of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect--can't
            remember exactly but it is/was not "Zulu." Great fun!

            Mike Barbieri
            Whitcomb's Corps
          • gstk1776
            Dear List, For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period...... Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead Born 30th September 1758, educated
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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              Dear List,

              For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......

              Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead

              Born 30th September 1758, educated Winchester; entered Army aged 15.
              62nd Foot:
              Ensign - 1st June 1774; Lieutenant - 3rd March 1776 (wounded and
              captured at Saratoga); Captain - 30 May 1786; Lieutenant Colonel -
              26th November 1794 (half pay - 1800).
              126th Foot, Lochaber (Cameron's) Fencible Infantry:
              Colonel - 1st January 1801.
              Major General 25th April 1808; Lieutenant General 4th June 1813.
              Created Baronet - 19 February 1806; died 18 May 1822.

              And talking of "Gibsoning" history.....

              * The 1879 Bromhead was almost totally deaf, which was why he had
              been left in charge at Rorke's Drift; both he and Chard remained in
              the Army for many years (despite their constant anti-war dialogues in
              the film).
              * Colour Sergeant Bourne was only 24.
              * Commissary Dalton - a former infantry sergeant-major, who had been
              trained in the construction of field defences - designed the "mealie
              bag redoubt".
              * Reprobate Pvte Henry Hook was, in real life, tee-total and a
              Methodist lay preacher, and left the Army with an exemplary record (I
              believe his family threatened to sue the makers of the film).
              * Only a dozen men were Welsh; most were English from the Midlands,
              as the 24th Foot was the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment in 1879 and only
              became the South Wales Borderers in the Cardwell Reform of 1881.
              * It is likely that everyone was bearded (shaving was abandoned
              throughout Chelmsford's force to conserve water).
              * The Zulus attacking Rorke's Drift were not from Isandlwhana; they
              were a separate group detached from the main body specifically to
              attack Rorke's Drift; although they had about 500 firearms, most were
              obsolete types and not taken from the dead of the 1/24th.

              Hope that was of interest.

              Brendan Morrissey
            • Jay Callaham
              ... From: gstk1776 To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU ... So, the movie
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
                To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
                Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                > Dear List,
                >
                > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
                >
                > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
                >
                > Born 30th September 1758,

                So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
                beside Wolfe at Quebec."

                Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
                reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
                "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

                And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

                And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
                Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

                Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

                Cheers!

                Jay
                Cm Gds
                4th Coy, Bde of Guards
              • davisr1@lee.army.mil
                There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have used frequently to illustrate to this less than desirably disciplined modern army ,
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                  There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have
                  used frequently to illustrate to this "less than desirably disciplined
                  modern army", that it is battlefield discipline that is so imperative to
                  winning. The scene was along the perimeter as this company of terrified
                  British soldiers are awaiting another attack by 500-godzillion Zulu's. The
                  Color Sergeant is strutting the line and remarks to one soldier "Jones
                  (whatever the soldier's name was), button your pocket!" The fear of the
                  troops was immediately diverted from the enemy to the
                  retribution/disciplinary control of the Color Sergeant, ergo: "the immediate
                  and unhesitating response to orders." The well trained and disciplined
                  soldier can and will respond to leaders orders, even under the most severe
                  of circumstances. This later played out (in the movie) when the Brits were
                  ordered to attack with their "rolling fire" formation - though totally
                  outmanned, the trained discipline gave them an overwhelming fire-power
                  advantage over their out-numbering enemy. An unbuttoned pocket may seem to
                  be an inconsequential observation, however it is not the pocket, but the
                  response to the correction -- the order -- that is imperative. We can find
                  this all over our period of the Rev War, and most other wars.

                  Bob D.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jay Callaham [mailto:callaham@...]
                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
                  To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
                  To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
                  Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                  > Dear List,
                  >
                  > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
                  >
                  > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
                  >
                  > Born 30th September 1758,

                  So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
                  beside Wolfe at Quebec."

                  Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
                  reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
                  "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

                  And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

                  And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
                  Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

                  Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

                  Cheers!

                  Jay
                  Cm Gds
                  4th Coy, Bde of Guards



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Welsh
                  Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially. ... From:
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                    Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower
                    caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                    To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:15 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                    > Well, let's see: linear tactics? How about British Army fighting locals
                    who
                    > want independence, and for occupation forces to get out? Everything's
                    connected
                    > somehow, you know.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, this time, the British Army didn't get it's butt kicked
                    > this time. But they did eventually lose that colony, too. Some lessons
                    have to
                    > be learned over and over again (have we learned yet?)
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                    member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                    >
                    > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                    > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • John Welsh
                    The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke s drift and the campaign read Washing of
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                      The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig
                      Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke's drift and the campaign read
                      Washing of the Spears.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                      To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:41 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                      > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
                      > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In
                      reality,
                      > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
                      > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more
                      miraculous.
                      >
                      > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so
                      he
                      > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the
                      indians.
                      >
                      > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born
                      in
                      > a Welsh village.
                      >
                      > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
                      > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
                      >
                      > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
                      > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just
                      prior to a
                      > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range
                      sights.
                      >
                      > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect."
                      Could
                      > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                      member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                      >
                      > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                      >
                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                      > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • eric_schnitzer@nps.gov
                      I don t have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the major of
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                        I don't have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our
                        Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the
                        major of the Regiment, Boardman Bromhead. Well, make that major of the
                        regiment up until c. 1770/71 or so. Probably an uncle...or his father.
                        Little Gonville, age 12, entered the officer corps at that time as the
                        quarter master of the regiment (he was later commissioned at about age 15
                        as an ensign).

                        I am,
                        Your Most Humble Servant,
                        Eric Schnitzer
                        Lieutenant, 62d Regiment of Foot and ADC

                        "The rebel officers' behavior is admirable; their discipline is just as good
                        as though they belonged to real regiments and were real soldiers."

                        -Brigadier WR von Gall to The Prince of Hessen-Hanau,
                        Cambridge MA, March 1778


                        >
                        > So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his
                        > grandfather "knelt beside Wolfe at Quebec."
                        >

                        Jay and List,

                        Unless of course he was one of the guys who bought a place in
                        Benjamin West's famous painting (isn't that a crib just behind the
                        Indian next to Wolfe's feet????).

                        Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                        Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                        America with his regiment.

                        Regards

                        Brendan Morrissey

                        ps: I think that the cry everyone is talking about is "Usuthu!"
                        ("Kill!").
                      • John White
                        Joe The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo s chiefdom. Go to
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          Joe

                          The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet
                          search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo's chiefdom. Go to
                          http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Rotunda/2209/Zululand.html

                          If I recall correctly, the USUTHU info was passed on to me by a fellow
                          reenactor who spent several years with our state department working in
                          Zululand.

                          (We REALLY should get back to the 18th century), he said somewhat
                          reluctantly.


                          John White
                          Avalon Forge
                          Baltimore
                          "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
                          http://www.avalonforge.com

                          JOEWHITNEY@... wrote:
                          > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
                          > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In reality,
                          > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
                          > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more miraculous.
                          >
                          > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so he
                          > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the indians.
                          >
                          > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born in
                          > a Welsh village.
                          >
                          > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
                          > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
                          >
                          > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
                          > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just prior to a
                          > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range sights.
                          >
                          > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect." Could
                          > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
                        • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                          ... Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it s a bit pricy. ... It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for Natal
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, GuardsOfc@n... wrote:
                            > All this talk about Zulu make me want to get out one of Martin-
                            Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it's a
                            bit pricy.
                            >
                            > Winston S. Stone
                            > Capt. & Lt. Col.
                            > 1st Guards
                            > Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense


                            It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for
                            Natal Province. $2.50 isn't bad for one of those rounds.

                            Mike Barbieri
                            Whitcomb's Corps
                          • joewhitney1
                            I ll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a fascinating book called
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                              I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                              lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                              fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                              analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                              battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                              in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                              the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                              distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                              casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.

                              I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                              Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                              revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                              thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                              100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                              Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                              learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                              Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                              emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                              sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                              the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                              improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                              was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                              the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                              more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                              great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                              show up late in the war, that's another matter.

                              In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                              Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                              actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                            • Ernie
                              Hello, How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                Hello,

                                How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I
                                know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the 1770's. Is there a way I can find
                                out about this man without troubling anyone too much?

                                Thank you,
                                Ernie Bartis

                                On 2 Jan 2004 at 19:26, gstk1776 wrote:
                                > Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                                > Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                                > America with his regiment.
                                >
                                > Regards
                                >
                                > Brendan Morrissey
                              • John Welsh
                                Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous compared
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                  Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it
                                  as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous
                                  compared to previous actions. The first "modern" war. The Napoleonic battles
                                  were horrible too, but there were more "Waterloos" fought in the Civil War
                                  than the Napoleonic wars. But weaponry does decide tactical considerations.
                                  The musket made pike phalanxes obsolete and even spelled the doom of cavalry
                                  charges, as the long bow successfully depleted the ranks of French knights
                                  at Crecy and Agincourt. During the Civil War cavalry played a relatively
                                  minor role overall and infantry regiments were not obliged to form squares
                                  against them. But tactics seems to lag behind new technological
                                  considerations as generals generally fight the last war they were in. During
                                  the "charge of the light brigade" against fixed Russian artillery batteries,
                                  the British and French staff watched in horror. The French general Canrobert
                                  remarked: "C'est magnifique. Mais ce n'est pas la guerre." (It's magnificent
                                  but it's not war.")

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                                  To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                  Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                                  > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                                  > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                                  > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                                  > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                                  > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                                  > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                                  > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                                  > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                                  > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.
                                  >
                                  > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                                  > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                                  > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                                  > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                                  > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.
                                  >
                                  > Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                                  > learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                                  > Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                                  > emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                                  > sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                                  > the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                                  > improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                                  > was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                                  > the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                                  > more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                                  > great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                                  > show up late in the war, that's another matter.
                                  >
                                  > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                                  > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                                  > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                                  member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                  >
                                  > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                  >
                                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                  > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • hm95thfoot
                                  ... massacres. ... would ... While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                                    > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)

                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                                    > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                    > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                                    >
                                    > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                                    massacres.
                                    > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                                    would
                                    > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                    > >
                                    >

                                    While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                                    big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                                    disease.

                                    Roger Fuller
                                  • wa3ngg@aol.com
                                    I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having accepted the conventional wisdom concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled muskets. I
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                      I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having
                                      accepted the "conventional wisdom" concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled
                                      muskets. I have a couple of questions. In a message dated 1/2/2004 4:49:08 PM
                                      Eastern Standard Time, JOEWHITNEY@... writes:

                                      > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                                      > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                                      > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                                      > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                                      > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                                      > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!) and
                                      > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                                      > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                                      > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.


                                      I'm a bit confused. 127,000 sounds significantly greater than the casualties
                                      in AWI battles. What are the comparative rates based on population at risk?

                                      >
                                      > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                                      > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                                      > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                                      > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                                      > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                                      I can appreciate the 50 to 100 yards, that makes perfect sense, if only in
                                      view of the "close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver" philosophy.
                                      Also, having participated in 1000 yard competition, I certainly agree that it is
                                      unlikely that significant numbers of combatants would have been striking man
                                      sized targets at 1,000 yards with any kind of useful consistency. But if
                                      rifled muskets were more accurate at extreme ranges, would they not also be more
                                      accurate at close range?

                                      Please don't misunderstand me. This isn't criticism, I'm truly interested in
                                      this.
                                      Tnx,
                                      Bill Deutermann


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • John Welsh
                                      There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI. A
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                        There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried
                                        at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI.
                                        A victory! A million French soldiers died during that world conflict. I
                                        suppose the majority were felled by the incessant artillery bombardments
                                        holding the line. The Germans took it too.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "hm95thfoot" <fullerfamily@...>
                                        To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:56 PM
                                        Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                                        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                                        > > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)
                                        >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                                        > > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                        > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                                        > >
                                        > > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                                        > massacres.
                                        > > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                                        > would
                                        > > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                                        > big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                                        > disease.
                                        >
                                        > Roger Fuller
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                                        member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                        >
                                        > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                        >
                                        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                        > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                        List Folke, Another note dealing with the movie ZULU which has become something of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                          List Folke,

                                          Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                          of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                          lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                          Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                          Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                          latter is just about to begin.

                                          Mike Barbieri
                                          Whitcomb's Corps
                                        • Rev. Joel Osborne
                                          A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah! Pax Christi Fr. Guido Fanning aka Rev. Joel Osborne Fanning s RGMT
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                            A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah!

                                            Pax Christi
                                            Fr. Guido Fanning
                                            aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                            Fanning's RGMT

                                            Joyce & Mike Barbieri wrote:

                                            > List Folke,
                                            >
                                            > Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                            > of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                            > lenient about discussion of the topic.
                                            >
                                            > Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                            > Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                            > latter is just about to begin.
                                            >
                                            > Mike Barbieri
                                            > Whitcomb's Corps
                                            >
                                            > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                            >
                                            > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                            >
                                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                            > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                            ... hip, huzzah! ... And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who, armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Joel Osborne"
                                              <joel.osborne7@v...> wrote:
                                              > A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip,
                                              hip, huzzah!
                                              >
                                              > Pax Christi
                                              > Fr. Guido Fanning
                                              > aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                              > Fanning's RGMT


                                              And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who,
                                              armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                              homeland against the foreign invader, charged over open ground into
                                              the volley fire and bayonets of British regulars. uSuthu! uSuthu!
                                              uSuthu!

                                              Mike Barbieri
                                              Whitcomb's Corps
                                            • Joseph Ruckman
                                              ... Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that leniency? Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that might be
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                                Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that
                                                leniency?

                                                Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                                a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...

                                                ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...

                                                Joseph Ruckman
                                                Revlist Advisory Board
                                              • Ketcham, Greg
                                                ... Hmmm, Joseph? Don tcha remember the Meaning of Life: Part Three-Fighting with each other ? Specifically, John Cleese blithely strolling through the Zulu
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  Hmmm, Joseph? Don'tcha remember "the Meaning of Life: Part
                                                  Three-Fighting with each other"? Specifically, John Cleese blithely
                                                  strolling through the Zulu attack, calmly shaving as heads are cleaved
                                                  from bodies, etc?

                                                  So....in their own way, they did :-)

                                                  Greg Ketcham

                                                  Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                  might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                                  a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                                • Dave White
                                                  ... topic. ... that ... produced ... Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of Life.... Dave White 4th Regt of Foot
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Ruckman" <malruck@a...> wrote:
                                                    > >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the
                                                    topic.
                                                    >
                                                    > Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on
                                                    that
                                                    > leniency?
                                                    >
                                                    > Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                    > might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never
                                                    produced
                                                    > a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                                    >
                                                    > ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...
                                                    >
                                                    > Joseph Ruckman
                                                    > Revlist Advisory Board

                                                    Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of
                                                    Life....

                                                    Dave White
                                                    4th Regt of Foot
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